supercharged y-block carb on e-pay

[Alaska Jim]

Am I behind the times or is this thing overpriced? //www.ebay.com/i/264214488058?ul_noapp=true

[darrell]

i seen that.what can you say.

[Ford blue blood]

You can ask what ever you want for something, doesn't change the value, doesn't mean it will sell for that price, what it will sell for determines the value.

[scicala]

Yeah, that's a real one, and complete and in very good shape. I've been searching EBAY for things like this since about 2005. This is the 2nd one I've seen (about 10 years apart). The price doesn't surprise me because of the rarity and valuable car it goes on. Still way too much though.


Sal

[rotorwrench]

It's hard to find a Y-block T-bird with a supercharger as well. There weren't a lot made that way.

[dmsfrr]

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Originally Posted by scicala

. . . The price doesn't surprise me because of the rarity and valuable car it goes on. Still way too much though.
Sal

Not trying to justify the price but only explain why it's very rare, the "Phase 1" '57 Thunderbirds were the hand-built racing predecessors of the F-Code Thunderbirds that later became available to the public in limited numbers (less than 220).

"The rarest of all 1957 Ford Thunderbirds is the 1957 Phase One D/F Factory Supercharged. One of 15 hand-built for Ford Competition at Ford Headquarters, and one of eight known to survive today. ... More than 10 times rarer than the coveted 1957 "F" Factory Supercharged Thunderbirds. McNamara at Ford proposed an initial production Phase One D/F Supercharged Thunderbird and Ford Customs to meet NASCAR homologation requirements and targeted Daytona Beach Speed Trials scheduled to begin on February 3, 1957, for their competition debut."
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Even...CHARGED-180331
.

[packrat5]

First of all, you have to consider the car this may be intended for. A restoration on this type of car could and likely would easily exceed 150-200K, so the price of a numbers matching carb is a non-issue. Second this is not 1962 anymore, and guys on this site, and other Ford sites, just can't seem to grasp this fact, and also, you can't just go to a junkyard anymore, and score a part for a "couple of bucks". Third, sellers are getting smarter than they were years ago, they have to compete. How many of these guys sold a part in good faith, trying to help a guy out, and then heard about him joking with his pals about "scoring a part for a steal"? It's happened to me many times. A few of them are probably reading this right now. And fourth, you never hear chevy guys whining about parts prices. Look at the prices chev carbs go for, and most of them were sold in the hundreds of thousands. Even correct original bolts go for huge dollars. Fifth, how many guys looking at this carb are actually interested in buying it? If you are not then why are you worried, or even concerned? And lastly, the old saying "if you can't afford to be in the game, find another table"

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Ford blue blood

You can ask what ever you want for something, doesn't change the value, doesn't mean it will sell for that price, what it will sell for determines the value.

Kind of like that '32 Ford radio on ebay (for many months) for $10,000, down from $12,500!

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by packrat5

first of all, you have to consider the car this may be intended for. A restoration on this type of car could and likely would easily exceed 150-200k, so the price of a numbers matching carb is a non-issue.

Second this is not 1962 anymore, and guys on this site, and other ford sites, just can't seem to grasp this fact, and also, you can't just go to a junkyard anymore, and score a part for a "couple of bucks".

Third, sellers are getting smarter than they were years ago, they have to compete. How many of these guys sold a part in good faith, trying to help a guy out, and then heard about him joking with his pals about "scoring a part for a steal"? It's happened to me many times. A few of them are probably reading this right now. And fourth, you never hear chevy guys whining about parts prices.

Look at the prices chev carbs go for, and most of them were sold in the hundreds of thousands. Even correct original bolts go for huge dollars. Fifth, how many guys looking at this carb are actually interested in buying it? If you are not then why are you worried, or even concerned? And lastly, the old saying "if you can't afford to be in the game, find another table"

very well posted!

[Alaska Jim]

I realize the rarity of the carb, and realize the rarity of the application. I just did not think they were selling for this much. That being said, I have no use for the carb and probably never will need one. I was just surprised at the price and was asking if that price was the "normal" price for those cards, and that application.

[packrat5]

There is no "normal" for something like this. A few more than a dozen of these cars were built, and theoretically, the carbs should all still be with the cars. They should never come up for sale. As only 8 of the cars have been documented, it's more than weird that a lone carb should suddenly appear. I would venture a guess, that the rest of the set-up has already sold on e-pay in the last few months to a person who may have no idea what he has purchased, and the seller has realized what he more or less gave away, and is trying to recover his loss. You never know. An assumption without proof is just that, an assumption. All these superchargers have a serial number, and you can trace them back to the original application.
Here is an unrelated story. Last year, a McCulloch supercharger went up for sale, with a Packard emblem on it. There was no such thing. The 57-58 Packards had a Studebaker-Packard emblem, or a McCulloch emblem. My son and I saw it, and knew immediately what it was. It sold for $400! There were 6 Packard Panthers made. One was supercharged. One was under restoration, and it was the supercharged one. It was missing the supercharger, and was presumed lost. Not so! We hope it went to the right people.

[scicala]

I would be curious to see the date code on the EBAY carb. Can't see it from the angle of the pictures. Wondering if they just made these for the production run of cars, or if any were built for service after the fact. The Holley manuals don't even include these carbs or specs for them.


Sal

[Oldmics]

Heres a good explanation regarding the modifications.


Its from Pat Fleischman who is an expert on the blower items




Holley used bowls on top and inside the bonnet on a Teapot 4000 series Holley. This is the advantage that the pressures in the bowl are equal so brass floats work fine. All external openings the carb must be sealed or fuel will spray out due the pressure differential outside the bonnet. This includes the throttle shafts, which may seep some fuel, but not a huge issue with low boost(under 10psi) combined with tight throttle shaft bushings. The F-code carb has added bosses on the side of the carb to direct boost pressure to the throttle shafts to prevent fuel leaking out of the shafts. The vacuum secondaries would never open under boost conditions, so ford had a boss cast to direct boost pressure into the other side of the secondary diaphragm which was sealed as well. The boost actually forces the secondaries open. Because the bowl and fuel are in the pressured bonnet the fuel pressure must increase for each pound of boost. Without the 1:1 increase of fuel pressure over the initial 6lbs to run a Holley, the fuel flow would actually stop instantly to the bowls. Example, 6 lbs of boost needs 12 lbs of fuel. Boost requires extra fuel so the blower carb has larger jets and bigger power valve circuit.


Sal brings up a good point regarding the build date code. I will see if I can find that out.


Oldmics

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by scicala

I would be curious to see the date code on the EBAY carb. Can't see it from the angle of the pictures. Wondering if they just made these for the production run of cars, or if any were built for service after the fact. The Holley manuals don't even include these carbs or specs for them.

Sal

I don't believe there was a DATE CODE during this period. The SERVICE UPGRADE NO. (character after HOLLEY LIST NO if one) should be found in period HOLLEY CATALOGING (indicating any running Service Upgrades) as to the LIST NO, shouldn't it?

I have found in the 49/59 MPC FINAL ISSUE EDB-9510-AA as being BIRD only and EDB-9510-AB as both PASS CAR and BIRD, possibly indicating the AA was released (by HOLLEY) for initial/early use?

TED EATON has a HOLLEY CATALOG which seems to go into detail.

I believe the LIST NO is 1536.

[Oldmics]

AA Carbs were used on the Phase 1 vehicles - both passenger cars and T Birds.


AB carbs were Phase 2 installed on both passenger cars and T Birds


There were 100 Phase 1 machines built for homologation.
Who at the time was to know how rare and coveted these would become.Parts got separated and ended up everywhere.


The best story that I know of is the folks who acquired a Phase 1 T Bird that did not have all of the blower items.


A few years later at the Carlise swap meet the owner found ALL of the correct missing parts that came off of the same car.Verified by the serial numbers on the found parts.


Now what are the chances of that !


Date code of manufacturing on the carbs is stamped on the top of the fuel bowls.


No Holly info is availiable. There is a carb rebuilder who claims to have actual blueprints of the AB carb but will not make them availiable.


Oldmics

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Oldmics

AA Carbs were used on the Phase 1 vehicles - both passenger cars and T Birds.

AB carbs were Phase 2 installed on both passenger cars and T Birds

There were 100 Phase 1 machines built for homologation. Who at the time was to know how rare and coveted these would become.Parts got separated and ended up everywhere.

Date code of manufacturing on the carbs is stamped on the top of the fuel bowls.

No Holly info is availiable.

Oldmics

FOR WHOM THE BELLS FINALLY TOLLED

I finally understand it now (you might say I am phased)...

PHASE 1 was a build of 100 cars for NASCAR rules and fifteen of those were BIRD. Now it makes sense. I though the BIRD was unique and the later production FORD/BIRD was PHASE 2.

Recall that McNamara communiqué (Fr.) was written in late November 1956, with an urging that 100 supercharged cars be completed by early 1957, in time for the Daytona Beach events. As mentioned earlier, 100 supercharged Fords of various models were completed by this date, but none were identified by the later F engine code. Rather than calling these F-cars, the hobby has embraced the term "Phase 1" or "D/F" as a way of distinguishing the early supercharged cars, of which only 15 were Thunderbirds. That's right, just 15 Phase 1 supercharged 1957 Birds were built and our feature car is one of only eight known to survive.

SOURCE - https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mu...d/1281993.html

There are so many varied accounts of the period that it is hard to pull out the realities.

THANX!

______________


EDIT -

NASCAR's April 1957 ban on fuel injection, superchargers and multiple carburetors...

So that explains FOMOCO shaking it's parts bins and so many late builds of E and F-CODES.

[rotorwrench]

The McCulloch/Paxton supercharger was kind of a flash in the pan. It boosted HP but it didn't turn out to be a real game changer as they had hoped. This stuff is rare due to the short period it was offered. NASCAR banned use of forced induction due to some of these accessories. Kaiser, Packard, & Studebaker used them for a short period in earlier years and they end up being a sticking point for restoration of those type cars due to differences in the units. High point restorations take the term "expensive" and apply an unhealthy dose of steroids when you have accessories like this to repair and maintain. The later Paxton blowers are just enough different that parts can still be a problem for the older units. Getting the right model numbers & within serial number groups makes it a very expensive proposal indeed. The carburetor is just another sticking point on "factory correct" restorations.

[Alaska Jim]

Thank you all for the education.

[scicala]

"I don't believe there was a DATE CODE during this period"


There were definitely date codes on Holley carbs of this era. Stamped on the highest part of the bowl cover. If these were hand built outside of the normal Holley 4000 production line, I guess it would be possible to be stamped in a different area, or not stamped at all.
Also, these carbs had a totally unique base casting (throttle body). Not like any other Holley 4000 made.


Sal

[scicala]

Oldmics, thanks for that quote from Pat Fleischman. Very good info on this "secret specification" carburetor.
The Carter AFB's on the Studebaker R2's also did similar sealing of the bowl and throttle shafts, etc.


Sal