Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-02-2019, 10:40 AM   #1
shew01
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 89
Default Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Les Andrews Mechanics Handbook, Vol. 1, page 3-2 indicates that the starter hole should be lubricated with an oil can squirt. What should receive the squirt? My car has a stone guard so the hole is even more recessed (and darker inside the hole) than a factory car.

Any help is appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
shew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 10:57 AM   #2
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 8,973
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

I debated even answering this. Sometimes advice given seems borderline foolish from my perspective. This is a prime example.


Oils & lubes are designed to bring longevity to something to avoid premature wear. In the case of the Starting Crank and/or the Starting Crank Bearing, what do we expect the life expectancy of either item to be? So with the each use considered a turn, would it be safe to say that most Model-As (-both in the past and in the future) would likely see 400 times of making that turn? If so, that is only 100 revolutions, ...and I'd say you could make several thousand revolutions before you would ever see any wear on the shank of the Starting Crank or the Bearing. Therefore applying oil which will only attract dirt and dust would not be of much benefit on adding longevity to either component. Just my 2 cents.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-02-2019, 11:05 AM   #3
1931 flamingo
Senior Member
 
1931 flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: new britain,ct 06052
Posts: 8,128
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Does not that hole lubricate the top of the spring by "seeping" past the spring bolt??
Paul in CT
1931 flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 11:15 AM   #4
shew01
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 89
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
I debated even answering this. Sometimes advice given seems borderline foolish from my perspective. This is a prime example.


Oils & lubes are designed to bring longevity to something to avoid premature wear. In the case of the Starting Crank and/or the Starting Crank Bearing, what do we expect the life expectancy of either item to be? So with the each use considered a turn, would it be safe to say that most Model-As (-both in the past and in the future) would likely see 400 times of making that turn? If so, that is only 100 revolutions, ...and I'd say you could make several thousand revolutions before you would ever see any wear on the shank of the Starting Crank or the Bearing. Therefore applying oil which will only attract dirt and dust would not be of much benefit on adding longevity to either component. Just my 2 cents.


The advice isnt foolish at all. The question may appear foolish to a seasoned Model A owner, but Im a newbie, and I dont want to skip something that appears to be simple that in the long run could be a costly mistake. I just dont have the experience to know the difference yet. It sounds like I need to skip this lubrication spot. Thanks for the help. Ive had the car about two weeks, and it is a blast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
shew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 11:32 AM   #5
Kurt in NJ
Senior Member
 
Kurt in NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: on the Littlefield
Posts: 4,787
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

--- from page 359 of the service bulletins, "flowing a little oil through this hole allows the oil to drain down between the sides of the spring and cross member and eliminates any possibility of any squeak occurring between cross member and spring"--- and it goes on about how to drill a hole in earlier ones lacking the lubrication hole
Kurt in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 11:34 AM   #6
30 Closed Cab PU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,396
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Thought I saw something recently that some As have a small hole/oiling point for the front leaf suspension spring, accessible through the crank hole?
30 Closed Cab PU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 12:33 PM   #7
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,140
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

I rarely use the hand crank unless I'm working on the engine. It's easier to put some oil on the hand crank before you put it through the bearing block.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 12:54 PM   #8
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 8,973
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Quote:
Originally Posted by shew01 View Post
The advice isn’t foolish at all. The question may appear foolish to a seasoned Model A owner, but I’m a newbie, and I don’t want to skip something that appears to be simple that in the long run could be a costly mistake. I just don’t have the experience to know the difference yet. It sounds like I need to skip this lubrication spot. Thanks for the help. I’ve had the car about two weeks, and it is a blast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I apologize if I insinuated that you were acting foolishly as that was not my intent or the reason for posting that.


Kurt is correct in that it does address this in the S/B but we discussed this some years ago here and I'm pretty sure the consensus was that if the square head of the tie-bolt was correctly seated in the front crossmember, there would be little chance that a squirt of oil would seep past the bolt head without running off the top of the crossmember. Additionally, if the spring pack was firmly seated against the bottom-side of the crossmember, the oil would likely find difficulty in entering into that area too. Then as I recall it was discussed that for the oil to effectively lube the crossmember to avoid a squeak, it would need to do that in the fore and aft areas of the spring, which if the oil did find its way onto the upper leaf, it would likely flow along the top of the spring to the left and right never reaching the crossmember walls. It is my belief this advisory sounded great in theory but had little practical application in the real-world. I am going to be at the archives in a few weeks and I may look at the A-5461 prints and then lookup the Engineer's notes on why that hole was added.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 12:54 PM   #9
Dick Steinkamp
Senior Member
 
Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 1,149
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ View Post
--- from page 359 of the service bulletins...


__________________
All steel from pedal to wheel
Dick Steinkamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 02:18 PM   #10
shew01
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 89
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
I apologize if I insinuated that you were acting foolishly as that was not my intent or the reason for posting that.

No offense taken. I genuinely am trying to learn, and this forum has been my best resource yet. Thanks again for the help.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
shew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 02:21 PM   #11
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 8,973
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Quote:
Originally Posted by shew01 View Post
No offense taken. I genuinely am trying to learn, and this forum has been my best resource yet. Thanks again for the help.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, this forum is way more informed and has much better (searchable) info than what you find on social media Model-A sites, that for sure!!
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 02:25 PM   #12
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 253
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
I am going to be at the archives in a few weeks
Can you start a thread called "I'm going to be at the archives in a few weeks" and then we can just send you unsolicited requests for things to look up for us?
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2019, 05:25 PM   #13
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,140
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Most folks that go to the Bensen Ford Research center are usually looking for references for books they want to write. DavidG on the V8 board has spent some time there but I think it was more convenient for him in location. His research was on the 1932 models among others. If I lived near Detroit, I'd certainly haunt them a time or two. The folks there will find information for people if they give them a specific request. There is a lot of stuff on line that can be accessed too.

Even with an oil hole there, the oil would be limited on how far it could go or what it could do to lubricate anything. Getting oil between the top leaf and the cross member would be about it. A person could do more by spraying the spring with oil on the front & rear sides where accessible.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 09-02-2019 at 05:31 PM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2019, 10:42 AM   #14
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 8,973
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
Can you start a thread called "I'm going to be at the archives in a few weeks" and then we can just send you unsolicited requests for things to look up for us?

..





Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
Most folks that go to the Bensen Ford Research center are usually looking for references for books they want to write. DavidG on the V8 board has spent some time there but I think it was more convenient for him in location. His research was on the 1932 models among others. If I lived near Detroit, I'd certainly haunt them a time or two. The folks there will find information for people if they give them a specific request. There is a lot of stuff on line that can be accessed too.

Even with an oil hole there, the oil would be limited on how far it could go or what it could do to lubricate anything. Getting oil between the top leaf and the cross member would be about it. A person could do more by spraying the spring with oil on the front & rear sides where accessible.

I think that was the general consensus when this was pitched probably a decade or two ago here. Even the illustration in the S/B would be difficult to duplicate in that location with the shell still in position. As I recall, the only argument that was made in favor of this actually being worthwhile was that the Model-T along with the B & 18 models apparently used a leather pad between the bottom side of the crossmember and the top leaf of the spring. The 'A' did not use any type pad in this area. With two properly torqued u-bolts, using lube would be moot as that area should not have any movement inboard of the two u-bolts to cause a squeak.
.
.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 08:21 AM   #15
ericr
Senior Member
 
ericr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,289
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

like you I always wondered what the efficacy of this procedure would actually be. if you read the contemporary materials, it seems that the Company was very sensitive to
squeaks, rattles, etc. someone must have convinced the Company that this point was a source of noise.


I think I wrote you once before, pondering the level of noise that these cars could have had when new and you said, come on down and I'll show you how quiet a properly-restored car rides.
ericr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 08:50 AM   #16
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,140
Default Re: Starter Crank Hole Lubrication

These old style frames & members bend and twist no matter how tight the bolts are. This can lead to fretting corrosion in a lot of areas. Now days I use silver or nickel base anti seize on areas where a lot of fretting can happen. Back in the post war days it would likely be slip plate and that would still be of use today. No lubricant scheme lasts forever even an oily piece of leather or cotton duck webbing. As it deteriorates, it leaves the clamp up a bit on the loose side. No loosness is a good thing.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:51 AM.