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Old 09-19-2019, 02:45 PM   #1
snappydon
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Default 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

Last spring I posted about my '37 85hp having water in the oil after sitting all winter.


Finally was able to mount the engine stand adaptor and get the pan off.


I didn't find any evidence of freeze cracks anywhere. But I did find a spot of rust and a small rust trail leading into the pan at what appears to me to be a cylinder sleeve between #2 and the center main bearing pedestal.


Am I correct in thinking this is a sleeved block?


Opinions please! Fixes?
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

I would pressure test the block. Shows cracks inside exhaust ports that can't be seen. Dave/Green Bay
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Old 09-19-2019, 09:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

No secret, I am not trained, just an intelligent observer. The photo when blown up shows us a metal circumference that is not the same metal as the surrounding block material.

As Dave/Green Bay mentioned pressure test is key. However the way I approach any problem, is to minimize energy and cash spent.

Therefore I would investigate a block sealer.
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:15 AM   #4
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

While I understand the block pressure testing...I should add that this engine is in a '37 model 79 1-1/2 ton that will never see the highway nor ever haul a load again.


Engine runs great and has nice even compression on all 8 cylinders.


Being a non pressurized system I'm leaning towards trying the block sealer (Bar's leak or similar). I was also thinking about cleaning and prepping the area that shows the rusty spot VERY well and using JB Weld to seal it on the oil side and block sealer in the coolant.


It looks like all the cylinders are sleeved, but only this one is leaking. Is it unusual for a sleeve to leak?


I'm really not wanting to tear it all down, and send it out to be tested and or spend a bunch of money on it.
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Old 09-20-2019, 08:52 PM   #5
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

Not an expert, check with Flatjack9 who pressure tests my blocks but all he needs is heads off to pressure test. Your oil must be milky with leak to oil pan? Did you say your engine is on a stand? Dave/Green bay
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

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Originally Posted by Dave/Green Bay View Post
Not an expert, check with Flatjack9 who pressure tests my blocks but all he needs is heads off to pressure test. Your oil must be milky with leak to oil pan? Did you say your engine is on a stand? Dave/Green bay

Yes to milky oil...that's how I figured out it had an internal leak.


Yes it's out of the truck and mounted on a Stumpy's flathead adaptor.
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Old 09-21-2019, 01:18 PM   #7
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

Did this ever have steel Pistons ? Just curious
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Old 09-21-2019, 04:31 PM   #8
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

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Originally Posted by Ggmac View Post
Did this ever have steel Pistons ? Just curious

No idea, I bought is as a used "running"engine. The one in the truck when I got it was toast.


This engine has and does run great, but after sitting over this past winter it slowly leaked enough water into the pan to make everything a light gray after running for awhile at about a 7-800 rpm idle.


Had an elderly gentleman who is pretty well schooled on flatheads look at it this morning, he concurred that it is BARELY leaking from between the sleeve and block. Block sealer was his suggestion...


We're gonna spin it right side up on the engine stand, install some tall hoses and fill it with water to top of radiator level and see if or where it leaks while in a static position. Kinda like it would be if sitting over the winter. Put some dry cardboard under it and keep an eye on it.



Should know in a few days if that's where my intrusion is I hope!
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Old 09-21-2019, 04:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

Some early Ford engines were built with steel sleeves the idea being when it was time to rebuild the engine all you did was pull the sleeves install new ones and fresh standard size pistons and you were good to go. The sleeves have a small flange on the top that locate in the corresponding grove in the block Looks like your block is one of those blocks. So to seal the leak its really simple what I do is purchase liquid sodium silicate also know as water glass. This is exactly whats used in many block sealers sold in stores however in all these sealing products the sodium silicate is diluted usually with colored water. Using the sodium silicate straight will work perfectly and seal the leak. You can buy a gallon on Ebay for less than the price of most other inferior sealers. Most sealers use the words ceramic in the title or description thats because there selling you a watered down sodium silicate mixture. This sealer sets up in the leak when the water temps reach 140 degrees. I know from experience in the most violent environment {Land Speed Racing} my cracked Flathead Ford blocks remained sealed using the sodium silicate.
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

A little off topic but I was a Ford dealer tech all my life. When they did the cash for clunkers program in the early 2000s the cars we got in under that program were deemed junk and not allowed to be registered again. To insure the engines were to never see street use again we were instructed to drain the oil and refill with 1qt sodium silicate and 3qts of water. Then start the engine and hold it wide open until it bogged down and stopped. Worked every time. The looser the engine the longer it took but never more than a minute. Believe Ronnie when he says it works.
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:39 PM   #11
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster View Post
Some early Ford engines were built with steel sleeves the idea being when it was time to rebuild the engine all you did was pull the sleeves install new ones and fresh standard size pistons and you were good to go. The sleeves have a small flange on the top that locate in the corresponding grove in the block Looks like your block is one of those blocks. So to seal the leak its really simple what I do is purchase liquid sodium silicate also know as water glass. This is exactly whats used in many block sealers sold in stores however in all these sealing products the sodium silicate is diluted usually with colored water. Using the sodium silicate straight will work perfectly and seal the leak. You can buy a gallon on Ebay for less than the price of most other inferior sealers. Most sealers use the words ceramic in the title or description thats because there selling you a watered down sodium silicate mixture. This sealer sets up in the leak when the water temps reach 140 degrees. I know from experience in the most violent environment {Land Speed Racing} my cracked Flathead Ford blocks remained sealed using the sodium silicate.
Ronnieroadster

And that Sir...is exactly why I love this forum. I don't post very often, but I constantly learn from the wisdom gathered here!


Thank you Ronnie!
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Old 09-21-2019, 08:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

Ronnie, I'm seeing 40% liquid Sodium Silicate on ebay.


Is that what I'm looking for?
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Old 09-22-2019, 12:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

The tin can sleeve motors were about .040" thick. That one may be a bit thicker but I can't tell. Ford may have repaired a block but I'm not sure if they took the time to do that. If it was sleeved due to a crack then that would also be a plausible possibility. Bar's Leaks or some other similar product should be tried first. It sounds like a slow leaker anyway.
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: 1937 85hp cylinder sleeve possibly leaking water into the pan?

Interesting development today...started cleaning the old pan gasket off block rails and the 2 rear soft plugs in the rail disintegrated as soon as I touched them with the scraper.


They APPEARED to be solid, but as soon as the gasket was removed they came apart like taking the lid off a Copenhagen can. Pretty obvious that water was leaking around the edges of the flat portion of the soft plug. But the leak was hidden by the gasket overlapping the plug edges.


That makes me SOOOO happy!



Moral of the story...I'll never trust the integrity of a soft plug again, without trying to poke at it to be sure.
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