New to FORD BARN - 1st question

[Billyo194]

Hello everyone, what an incredible find this site is.
Excited new owner of 1930 Model A recently inherited from my wife’s side. She remembers riding in it early 1980’s as a young lass. Then it was parked in a cement floor pole barn since then and never moved or touched. It looks to be in great shape considering. It was trailered to my pole barn and I’m excited to join the FORD BARN to learn more about what I need to do and in what order. I’ve ordered Les Andrews book and hope it comes soon!!! Not looking to make this show quality, but going to really enjoy driving around town with it.
The first thing I think I should do before getting the Les Andrews book is to get something in the spark plug holes and try to turn it over every couple weeks while I play with other things like getting the gas tank and seats out and cleaned up.
I do want to drop the pan and get eyes in there before I go about trying to really see if it will start.
SO MY VERY FIRST QUESTION FOR THE GROUP IS:
Should I put something down the spark plugs and would it be a shot glass amount of marvel mystery oil or automatic transmission fluid? Could I then pull on the fan and see if it will roll over? Maybe do this a couple times over the next few weeks before having a buddy who knows a bit more about compression see if this is seized?

[Gil Sissons]

Welcome to the Barn!
I would start with pulling the plugs and a good shot of Marvel Mystry oil down there.
Give it a little time to start to work.
Lots of help on this site.
Gil. NoCal

[lrf]

Welcome to owning the best car ever made. Oil in the cylinder is correct but DON'T use the fan to turn the engine. Place the trans in reverse or 3rd and rock the car back and forth with the plugs out. You'll feel and hear the engine turning over. Also read all you can and join a Model A club, the members are very knowledgeable. Enjoy the ride. LRF

[Dodge]

Welcome! Welcome!
Remember the only dumb question is the one not asked. So ask away here, lots
of help here.

And do see if you can join a local club and have some members come over and help
you go over it and get it ready to start and drive.

Lots of stuff to check when its been sitting that long. Go slow and it will reward you.
Enjoy, your in for some good times.

Dodge

[bavArian]

Welcome!


I would pull the plugs, squirt a bit of oil inside the cylinders and try turning the engine with the hand crank. It should turn over quite easily without the spark plugs.

[Stingray70]

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Welcome to the barn! Assuming the engine turns over, I would flush the fuel tank, change the oil in the engine, transmission, rear end, and lube the car before driving it. Use the service guide in Les Andrews book as a guide for what to check to make the car roadworthy.. I started at the top of the list and did everything on it.

[nkaminar]

Welcome,

All good suggestions so far.

Why was the car parked? It would be nice to get some history on the car. Was there a knock or some other problem?

Find the hand crank to turn it over. If it is seized you will have to take the engine apart. New hand cranks are available on the internet.

To get it running, you will have to clean out the fuel system and probably the carburetor. The points will probably need to be cleaned or maybe new ones. And a new battery. Check all the fluids and grease the car. Change the engine oil and pour one quart down the hole where the distributor is to add oil to the bearings. Look at the oil to see if there is sludge or water or metal particles. Use 50/50 antifreeze in the radiator.

Depending on why the car was parked and what condition it was stored in, the prudent thing to do is to take the engine apart for a thorough inspection. Model A engines are really simple and easy to work on. You will need some way to hoist the engine out and an engine stand. If you have any mechanical ability you should be able to do that. Beats crawling under the car.

[TerryO]

[QUOTE Could I then pull on the fan and see if it will roll over? ][/QUOTE]
Yes, pull on the fan, (as in off) and replace it with a new aluminum fan. The old fan is probably not very safe...
TOB

[tinkirk]

just sent you a pm

[WHN]

My experience with a Model A that had been parked form many years.

First, don’t start taking things apart until you know what you have or might have to deal with.

Drain and clean the fuel lines. Remove spark plugs and put Marval Mystery Oil in the cylinders. Let this sit for a couple of days. Than drain oil and add new oil. Remember you only need to add 4 1/2 quarts of oil unless you have dropped the oil pan, than it will take five quarts. The recommendation to put one of the quarts of oil down the distributor shaft is a good one. Pulling the distributor out and re installing, will not change the timing if you don’t move anything. I would use 20w-40 HD oil. Get new spark plugs, gap to 35. Clean points, don’t go crazy here. New battery, new gas (just two gallons), add water to radiator.

Check for leaks, water or gas. Start car. You might be surprised with what you have.

Remember! Just like your grandfather who has been sitting in his chair to long. It might take a few minutes after car starts to run before you will really know what you have.

Please don’t start taking things apart before you know what your dealing with.

I have a car that sat for 25 years in a barn in Up-State N.Y. Started right up. Still running great today, 42 years later.

Down the road you might have to rebuild or replace many things. But, if the engine is sound? That would be a real plus.

I wish you the best. Good luck. Keep it in the family. There like a really good dog. Good memories.

Put some MMO in the gas.

Enjoy

[Chuck Dempsey]

Welcome aboard, and good luck!

[MAG]

Billy, "I do want to drop the pan and get eyes in there before I go about trying to really see if it will start."

An excellent thing to do.

In most cases these cars were run with Non-detergent oil which produces sludge in the oil pan and tappet gallery. Most likely the oil pump screen will be covered with sludge and make it difficult or impossible to pump oil. Changing the oil will not remove the sludge from the screen. Removing the pan will not disturb any adjustments so there should be no worry there.
If you feel so inclined, do a Plastigage test on the rod and main clearances while the pan is off. MHO.

[Bob Bidonde]

BillyO! If you haven't done it already, find the nearest Model "A" club and join. Ask the members for help with your car. It's the best way to learn about a Model "A". Get it running, make it safe and enjoy your Model "A" as soon as possible.

[Big hammer]

As for turning an engine over without a hand crank, slip a socket over the ratchet nut on the end of the crankshaft slip an extension through the radiator hand crank hole use a long ratchet or breaker bar to turn the engine over. The parts suppliers sell a box wrench that does the same thing just behind the radiator and it’s close quarters in there!

[Benson]

Billy,

Before you buy a crank or bend a fan blade ... look under the front then back seats there might already be a crank under there!

OR USE BIG HAMMER'S method!

As mentioned above there is a serious danger in using the original steel TWO BLADE fan blades!

Check two bladed fan with magnet if it is attacted to it is steel and dangerious.

The new aluminium fan blades are safe.

If it is steel DO NOT rev up engine and have your head near the fan!

My Coupe has four inch wide, three sided hole in the hood where blade went though it.

The previous owner said that they never did find that blade.

[J Franklin]

The fan is too fragile to use as a crank. add a little oil with the shot of marvel Mystery Oil.

[ursus]

My coupe had sat for years in a barn. Both rear axle and transmission had slowly leaked oil over the years. It would be wise to check fluid levels on both as well as the steering gear before driving the car.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Big hammer

As for turning an engine over without a hand crank, slip a socket over the ratchet nut on the end of the crankshaft slip an extension through the radiator hand crank hole use a long ratchet or breaker bar to turn the engine over. The parts suppliers sell a box wrench that does the same thing just behind the radiator and it’s close quarters in there!

Yes, usually a 1⅜" socket.

I bent up a 1⅜" wrench to fit. I bought several (~$10 each) and bent them for club members.



Welcome to the Barn Billyo

[goodcar]

"while I play with other things like getting the gas tank out and cleaned up" Whoa!! on this unless the tank has holes in it. Removing the gas tank is major work and maybe not needed. Flush it, dump in a gallon of new gas and make sure it has good clean outflow.

[jack backer]

A model A engine needs oil in the valve gallery to lubricate the main bearings. Without pre filling the valve gallery through the distributor hole a long term stored engine can run over 30 seconds with dry main bearings. As mentioned above, pre fill the valve gallery before starting engine.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Good Morning...Take in all the advice above and follow it closely. Take your time. Do check your distributor and carburetor to make sure they are clean and ready to work. Check the little wire from the bottom of the distributor to the plate...many a car was put to sleep because that wire shorted to the case and the owner did not know to check it. Prehaps not necessary but I normally purchase a good quality new coil and condenser...just for piece of mind. Work through the electrical system, cleaning and tighting and looking for any wire that is bare do to the covering rotting off. Enjoy the old girl...Ernie in Arizona

[Dick M]

All of the foregoing is good advice. I also urge you to drop the pan. Clean up any visible sludge. Be sure to check under the dipper tray for any sludge. You can easily pop it out of the pan for cleaning underneath...Welcome...

[Synchro909]

I have just completed helping a friend get his first Model A going. It had been standing for about the same time as yours and we did pretty much as has been outlined above. Once the engine was free and we thought it safe, we checked the compressions. Zero in two cylinders. I suggest you do the same. We diagnosed valves so a set of new ones was ordered along with adjustable tappets. It fell to me to change the tappets and valves, which I did with the engine in the car. There are a couple of tricks to getting this done so if you need to do it, get in touch and I will explain.
This engine had been standing so long that rust was appearing on the crankshaft and con rods but it is running like a champ now and we have a very smiley new member.

[Chris in WNC]

yes, drop the pan and clean everything before trying to start.

if you decide to check rod and main bearing clearance (good idea), the aluminum foil go/no-go method is easier and more accurate than Plastigage.

[J Franklin]

Originally Posted by Chris in WNC

if you decide to check rod and main bearing clearance (good idea), the aluminum foil go/no-go method is easier and more accurate than Plastigage.

It may be easier but I doubt it is more accurate.

[Benson]

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Suggestion:

Do not overlook post #12.

There is a bulletin in 1932-34 service bulletins where Ford warned dealers to clean the oil pump filter screen EVERY time oil pan is removed.


There were a number of engines sent to Ford rebuilding centers where lack of oil caused by sludge that had plugged up oil filter screens was determined to be the cause of failure.

This on engines that were less than five years old at the time.

[Dick M]

RE POST #25

I have set mains and rods using the foil method. I also re-checked with plastigage after setting with foil. The foil method was spot on...

[JoeCB]

Hello Bill , welcome to the "Barn" from a fellow Michinanian (or Michigander, if you prefer).
Have fun with your "A" , and just remember that they are a simple machine, easy to maintain... testified to by the fact that so many survived; God only knows what kind of life they lead.

Joe B , Farmington Hills

[jerrytocci]

Put hand crank in and jack it a tiny bit to keep pressure on the crank

[Ayers1]

Welcome to the Forum! If you follow post #10 from WHN that should get you a long way! I have an A that sat for 45 years and did everything he recommended and it did pretty good. Still working on some issues but it will be fine before long. Good luck!

[katy]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Yes, usually a 1⅜" socket.

Yes, "usually", but not necessarily. The crank (ratchet) nut on my '31 CCPU is 1-1/4", I suspect that it's from a V-8, but that's what's on there so that's what I use. I don't see any need to change it to the "usual" size.

[Billyo194]

First off - Thanks so much for a ton of tips and many private messages. I am so blessed to have found this site. I got the top of the engine compartment cleaned off today and found that my wife's Dad left the spark plugs out of the cylinder head. Guess who had been visitors over the last 30 years? Mice made nice little houses down inside the spark plug holes. Attached a photo of what I've been able to clean out so far. Bad thing is this makes me want to consider pulling the head off (lots of work and buying or fabricating a puller from what I've seen on the Barn forums), good thing is he probably poured some oil down in there from time to time in an attempt to keep it lubed. So I've ordered a scope that should be here tomorrow for me to get eyes down the holes to see how much me and the vacuum missed. What does everyone think - if it looks pretty clean from the scope, would you still pull the head?

[Chris in WNC]

If I was a gambling man I'd bet on the head needing to come off.

I took a flathead Dodge engine apart that had been sitting in a fence row for years.
Don't remember what was in the cylinders, but one valve chamber was clean, the other full of nut shells. Oil pan had the usual pudding.

[Ayers1]

Finding all of the "deposits " in the cylinder I would definitely take the head off. Give you a chance to clean it out good and check for stuck valves too.

[nkaminar]

Billy,

After your post #32, I would pull the engine and take it apart for a full inspection and repair/adjustment where needed. The mice urine is corrosive. I think you would be better off in the long run. Buy a copy of the The Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook, Volume 1. It has detailed instructions for all things mechanical. See https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/p...0031&cat=41621.

The model A engine is fun to work on and you will learn a lot by doing so. You can rig some sort of lift to get it out and then use an engine stand to work on it, available from places like Harbor Freight. With long enough bolts, the side water inlet is strong enough to support the engine.

To remove the head, use the plastic wedges that are used for tree felling, available at hardware stores like Lowes. Do not use a metal wedge. Wedge at opposite ends at opposite sides, not in the middle. Sometimes it helps to remove the studs. If you are lucky they will come out with vice grips and you can just replace the ones that get damaged.

[Afordman31]

Tom Wesenberg built one of these and posted it.
I built this one and used it on a stuck motor.
It is made from a junk starter end and bendix gear.
Remove the starter then bolt this in its place.
I used a breaker bar and socket and my brother used the crank. Between the two of us we broke the motor free.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Afordman31

Between the two of us we broke the motor free.

And then?

[Afordman31]

???

[Terry, NJ]

Contrary to just about everyone else here, I don't recommend taking the pan down or removing the head. At least not until you get it to run. Taking a head off a model A is fraught with complications(what kind of gaskets? how much do you torque it? how many times do you torque it, How do you get the distributor out, The head is stuck, how do I? .......) These are the complications that make you think twice about owning a Mod. A You're supposed to have fun with this. Ditto for the bottom end Why not start it up and run it for a little bit before disassembling it? There will be time for that later. Start it up on the old oil, run for ten minutes, then change it. You will hear some old timers telling you to use nothing but Non Detergent oil, Yes they still make it. Don't believe it! Run detergent from the start. Most mod. A guys use Shell 15/40. Available from Tractor Supply. I had an engine that was all crapped up with sludge, the oil screen was a bout 80% blocked. The reason for starting on old oil is to give the bearings and cam parts a good scraping before dumping. That rust is Iron Oxide, (FE O2 I Believe ). They make abrasives out of Oxides. When you first start an engine that hasn't been run in twenty five years, you can bet there's plenty of rust. Change again in 50 miles.
Good Luck!
Terry

[ronn]

strong shop vac over each cylinder will clean out most of the mice droppings.


I hang a cinder block on a crank, for tension. Jack method works well too.

[Billyo194]

*** UPDATE ***
Well fellas, I have given it one month to try to break free. No luck. Tried the Marvel, sucked it back out, tried ATF, sucked it back out and last two weeks was two cans of PB Blaster in the four plug holes. No luck - Still seized.

So this past weekend I got an engine stand from Harbor Freight and the adapter from Berts. Buddy lent me an engine hoist and out came the engine. I followed Les Andrews book to a T and everything but the side engine pans came out nicely (don't know why I was trying to keep the nuts/bolts, but after an hour of trying to break the side pan nuts off, I just cut them - should have just grinded them off).

I have the still frozen engine on the stand and am slowly removing things. The head came off surprisingly well by putting it on the stand and keeping tension on the hoist. I loosened the head nuts a half turn each and left to go grab a sandwich. When I returned, there was a nice equal opening all the way around head. I did one more full turn to each head nut and gave it an hour and came back out to find the head again nicely coming up equally. Just did this for the next hour until the head was up about an inch or so, then rubber malleted struck it back down to seat and pulled back up and it came right up and off... I was thinking the head was NOT GOING TO BE FUN, but I sure surprised myself. There is enough rust in the top of the pistons from the plugs being left out that I don't think "honing" will work, these guys are going to have to be re-bored I I have that right. I visited a couple engine shops yesterday.. one told me to bring it back in 6 months and the other passed on the work. Looks like I am going to have to get some more research done and keep learning about this old girl. I've reached out to some local groups and will be spending some time with them over the next few weeks.

Engine pan came off nicely and the engine from below actually looks brand new... nice and clean and hardly any sludge in the pan from over 30 years of no-use.

Been really enjoying my time searching around the FORDBARN. Looked up a ton of threads on pulling the head studs so that is this week's job.

[BrianH]

Welcome, glad to hear your going to get the A running again. You started off good with getting Les Andrews book. You might want to look at some You tube video's by Paul Shinn. As many suggested you find a local club you should look into the national clubs as well. MAFCA Model A Ford Club of America and/or MARC Model A Restorers Club. I belong to both.

[nkaminar]

Billy, Nice work so far. Try some rust desolver like Evapo-rust, https://www.evapo-rust.com/ to break the pistons free. Clean out as much as you can first. It is too bad that the plugs were left out. Or just give it to the rebuilder with the pistons still in.

You may have to go a distance to find someone who will rebuild the engine. You can ship it or just throw it in the back of your car or truck and drive it there. Search for Model A engine rebuilding and then search on the Barn for recommendations on shops to rebuild engines.

If you pull the crankshaft mark the caps on the rods and mains to keep track of where they go and keep track of the shims. If, as you say, that the bottom end is good, then the rebuilder can just bore and hone for new pistons and you can re assemble the engine. The block may need to be decked and the valve seats re cut. If not there already, adjustable lifters and modern valves are a good idea. Have the rebuilder install hardened valve seats.