Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Late V8 (1954+)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-21-2018, 10:00 AM   #1
Jlau
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 11
Default Hello from NC!

I just joined your MB last week. I was trying to find out some info, and I stumbled upon a thread in which you guys were discussing how Fords could not be numbers matching, only well-documented. I am a GTO guy, so this was news to me. Here's my story:

I manage a classic car collection for a gentleman in Durham, NC. One of our cars is a 1960 Sunliner with the 352/360 engine. My boss goes to auctions and buys cars, and there was no documentation with this car when he purchased it. The car looked great, but it ran like crap. We tore the engine down and discovered that it had rods from a truck 312 in it. Anyway, I am a stat guy and after doing much research, I have come up with a confirmation list of 13 items that are on this car that were not available on any other engine. This includes things like re-routing the break lines, etc. So, while this car apparently is not numbers-matching (grin), the dates on the engine block, carburetor and data plate are all within a week of each other. The January, 1960 issue of Motor Life had the well-know article by Tom Shaw that I used as the basis for my confirmation sheet.

I have attached a photo of our car. I have no idea of how rare this car is, so I am asking for thoughts and opinions of any kind regarding this car.

Thanks for your input!
John
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 60 Sunliner.jpg (56.7 KB, 476 views)
Jlau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 11:02 AM   #2
Lanny
Senior Member
 
Lanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mn
Posts: 2,402
Default Re: Hello from NC!

Hi John, Sorry, I can't be of much help, other than, the Ford production
number for the 1960 Sunliner was 44,762 Total produced.
I like the red '60 you have pictured, a lot, it looks good.








.
__________________
My Wife Says That I Never Listen to Her,
I Think That's What She Said


If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
But if daddy ain't happy...RUN
Lanny is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 05-21-2018, 12:09 PM   #3
dmsfrr
Senior Member
 
dmsfrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Abq, NM
Posts: 3,598
Default Re: Hello from NC!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlau View Post
... The car looked great, but it ran like crap. We tore the engine down and discovered that it had rods from a truck 312 in it. ... the dates on the engine block, carburetor and data plate are all within a week of each other. ...
Given the number of years since new almost anything could have happened under the hood. It wouldn't be the first time. BTW, there's no such thing as a 312 (y-block) "truck" engine

Having the date code on the block be within a week of the scheduled production date of the car almost seems suspicious to me. It's not impossible but I'd think the casting date on the block would be a few more weeks before the car's build date. (not that the scheduled build date was the actual build date)

If some engine parts aren't correct and other things under the hood seem a bit 'off', it's possible a previous owner tried to make it 'look right' for the casual observer, and almost succeeded.
Being a limited production car without documentation makes it more difficult to be sure what you have.

Could you share the itemized list you came up with? and/or close-up photos of the things in question.
They should be helpful solving the mystery.
.

Last edited by dmsfrr; 05-21-2018 at 01:12 PM.
dmsfrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 12:39 PM   #4
scicala
Senior Member
 
scicala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Detroit suburb, MI
Posts: 3,697
Default Re: Hello from NC!

Welcome to Ford Barn John,
I have no idea how many of the 352/360 HP cars they built but has to be very rare. I've never seen one except for in magazines. I know the correct carburetor should be a Holley LIST 2112 (C0AE-9510-AA), and the date code is on the left side of the choke tower before 1964. Not sure if the heads had a unique casting number but they had smaller chambers to give a 10.6:1 comp ratio (59 cc chambers). Also had a high lift solid lifter cam and special cast iron exhaust headers (similar to the later 427's).
Also had an aluminum intake manifold.


Sal
scicala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 01:31 PM   #5
KULTULZ
Senior Member
 
KULTULZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY
Posts: 6,414
Post Re: Hello from NC!

Here is a reference- http://www.hotrod.com/articles/super...rformance-v-8/

If that car has 15" steel wheels, they are unique to the 60 HP over the following 61. They alone are worth a small fortune.

Unless you find a build sheet somewhere in the car, it is going to be difficult to document.
__________________
*****

- DISCLAIMER -

The above posted information is in my opinion only (IMO) and may contain copy and paste material(s).

In addition, any above tech information is supplied in good faith. No responsibility implied or otherwise can be accepted for the way others use or interpret provided data.

Your experience(s), opinion(s) and mileage may vary.

DIAGNOSED CDO - (OCD In Correct Alphabetical Order)
KULTULZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 01:46 PM   #6
dmsfrr
Senior Member
 
dmsfrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Abq, NM
Posts: 3,598
Default Re: Hello from NC!

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post
...
Unless you find a build sheet somewhere in the car, it is going to be difficult to document.
Jlau, Build Sheets are sometimes found tucked into the seat springs or inside the seat-backs.
dmsfrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 02:53 PM   #7
Alaska Jim
Senior Member
 
Alaska Jim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 1,573
Default Re: Hello from NC!

I am not an expert by any means , but as mentioned, there are/were no 312 truck engines, and if the rods were 312 rods, I doubt that they would fit a 352. are you sure you do not have a y block eng. ? some pictures of the eng. and eng. bay would help.
Alaska Jim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 03:50 PM   #8
Jlau
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 11
Default Re: Hello from NC!

Wow! Thanks for the responses. Here are some photos and other information that I have collected. I remembered incorrectly. The rods are for a 292, not a 312.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Holley 4160 Date Code.jpg (25.9 KB, 63 views)
File Type: jpg SUNLINER CYLINDER HEADS CASTING NUMBERS.jpg (25.1 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg 1960 FORD SUNLINER ENGINE DATE.jpg (27.9 KB, 69 views)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 60 Sunliner Confirmation Checklist.pdf (482.5 KB, 17 views)
File Type: pdf C1TE-C Connecting Rods.pdf (133.4 KB, 10 views)
Jlau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 04:06 PM   #9
dmsfrr
Senior Member
 
dmsfrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Abq, NM
Posts: 3,598
Default Re: Hello from NC!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlau View Post
.... The rods are for a 292, not a 312.
Are the head and engine block photos you posted (above) of the actual engine from the car?
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska Jim View Post
.... if the rods were 312 rods, I doubt that they would fit a 352. are you sure you do not have a y block eng. ?
some pictures of the eng. and eng. bay would help.
How many bolts hold the valve covers on? A 352 (FE) engine will have 5 bolts, a Y-block has two.

FE engine block casting number chart...
http://www.erareplicas.com/427man/engine/partnums.htm
This chart shows the block casting number of a 1960 Hi-po 352 would be EDC-B or EDC-C

Y-block engine casting number chart...
http://www.ford-y-block.com/Block%20identification.htm
A 1960 y-block casting number would start with B9AE-
.

Last edited by dmsfrr; 05-21-2018 at 05:28 PM.
dmsfrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 06:03 PM   #10
KULTULZ
Senior Member
 
KULTULZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY
Posts: 6,414
Post Re: Hello from NC!

Here is another reference- https://www.fordfe.com/352-360hp-rods-t96545.html
__________________
*****

- DISCLAIMER -

The above posted information is in my opinion only (IMO) and may contain copy and paste material(s).

In addition, any above tech information is supplied in good faith. No responsibility implied or otherwise can be accepted for the way others use or interpret provided data.

Your experience(s), opinion(s) and mileage may vary.

DIAGNOSED CDO - (OCD In Correct Alphabetical Order)
KULTULZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 06:50 PM   #11
KULTULZ
Senior Member
 
KULTULZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY
Posts: 6,414
Post Re: Hello from NC!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsfrr View Post

Are the head and engine block photos you posted (above) of the actual engine from the car?
.
How many bolts hold the valve covers on? A 352 (FE) engine will have 5 bolts, a Y-block has two.

FE engine block casting number chart...
http://www.erareplicas.com/427man/engine/partnums.htm

(Notice FORD used three different PN Series in this period).

This chart shows the block casting number of a 1960 Hi-po 352 would be EDC-B or EDC-C

Y-block engine casting number chart...
http://www.ford-y-block.com/Block%20identification.htm

A 1960 y-block casting number would start with B9AE-
.
Here is a more accurate CYL BLOCK Casing Number ID Chart- http://www.fordification.com/tech/ca...rs-FEblock.htm

B9AE 6015-B would (could) be an early 360HP (See Referred FE FORUM post thread).

B9AE could be either FE or FYB depending on the Casting ID No. Suffix.

The CITE rods (292HD forged) may have been an attempt to strengthen the bottom end. Today's' remedy would be a 361 FT crank and rods (I would think).

... forgot ...

EDIT-

This is an entry found on a 360HP Build Sheet-

In the space provided on the build sheet for special equipment/comments it says:

Quote:
High Performance Engine. HD O.D. Trans. HD 3.56 axle. 7.10 X 15" WSW tires
(I also found it interesting the 360HP came through with electric wipers and used only a single action fuel pump).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Engine Stamping- HP.jpg (38.8 KB, 20 views)
__________________
*****

- DISCLAIMER -

The above posted information is in my opinion only (IMO) and may contain copy and paste material(s).

In addition, any above tech information is supplied in good faith. No responsibility implied or otherwise can be accepted for the way others use or interpret provided data.

Your experience(s), opinion(s) and mileage may vary.

DIAGNOSED CDO - (OCD In Correct Alphabetical Order)

Last edited by KULTULZ; 05-21-2018 at 07:11 PM.
KULTULZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 09:11 PM   #12
mercman from oz
Senior Member
 
mercman from oz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 10,295
Default Re: Hello from NC!


What a great looking 1960 Ford Sunliner. For more on these forgotten 1960 Fords, check out this Post.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=221542
mercman from oz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2018, 09:24 PM   #13
scicala
Senior Member
 
scicala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Detroit suburb, MI
Posts: 3,697
Default Re: Hello from NC!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlau View Post
Wow! Thanks for the responses. Here are some photos and other information that I have collected. I remembered incorrectly. The rods are for a 292, not a 312.






Also, I have a book written by David W. Temple and it says some other differences with the 360 HP engine were heavier valve springs with dampers, solid push rods, adjustable rocker arms, heavier crankshaft balancer, larger dia. generator pulley and dual point distributor w/o vacuum advance.


Sal
scicala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2018, 10:18 AM   #14
Jlau
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 11
Default Re: Hello from NC!

OK, guys, here we go.

Yes, the photos are from the engine in the car.

This is not a 292. We have a 57 Skyliner with a 292 Thunderbird Special, and we are familiar with those valve covers.

"This chart shows the block casting number of a 1960 Hi-po 352 would be EDC-B or EDC-C"

I have previously seen the above chart and it did not make sense, because there (supposedly) are no markings on the 1960 352/360 block that differentiate that engine from the 352/300. Introduced mid-year, there is very little factory mention of this engine. To add to the confusion, the "Y" engine identifier in the VIN is not the Y-Block, it is listed as the "Eight Cylinder 352 4-bbl."

"Also, I have a book written by David W. Temple and it says some other differences with the 360 HP engine were heavier valve springs with dampers, solid push rods, adjustable rocker arms, heavier crankshaft balancer, larger dia. generator pulley and dual point distributor w/o vacuum advance."

Sal, I will check with our mechanics on this info. I know that ours has a dual-point distributor. I failed to include that on our checklist, so I will add that to it. These items are also listed in Hall's 1960 Motor Life article. I will attempt to locate Temple's book.

I understand that a 352/360 car is a fraud-guy's dream because the engine did not have any identifiers. However, I don't think that the guys that restored this were thorough enough to take the time to find out all of these things that were particular to that type of car. These guys were very sloppy. While the car looked good at the auction, neither the aftermarket AC nor the heater were connected. The car ran terribly with the CITE-C connecting rods (of course, because they didn't fit properly). I think that they didn't really know what they had, and that somebody told them that the rods would work.

Another observation: We have a 352/300 in our 59 Skyliner. The cam in the Sunliner sounds really good; much more aggressive than the Skyliner.

Thanks again for all of the feedback. In the interest of proving or disproving what we have here, there can never be too much discussion.
Jlau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2018, 11:26 AM   #15
scicala
Senior Member
 
scicala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Detroit suburb, MI
Posts: 3,697
Default Re: Hello from NC!

Sounds like you have he real thing there (except for the rods). The book I have by David W. Temple is called "Full-Size Fords 1955- 1970" and I purchased it from Amazon. Good luck with the investigation. According to the NHRA tech page, the engine should have flat top pistons with a .036" deck clearance, if that helps you in getting correct rods. (10.6 : 1 CR).


Sal


Sal
scicala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2018, 11:56 AM   #16
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,371
Default Re: Hello from NC!

Ford Motor Company stopped stamping numbers on the engines after the end of the 200 CID 4-cylinder Model A & B engines. After that is was first stamped into the engine assembly which included the transmission and wouldn't you know the transmission is where they stamped them. When the engine assembly was dropped into the frame, the numbers were copied to it with stamps. Ford only put a date code on engines and not all of them either. Henry Ford passed the torch on to Henry II not long before his death. Things started to change after 1947 but it was up through around 1952 when they really fully implemented the later Ford numbering system. By 1954, stuff was numbered by P/N pretty well. Date codes vary depending on the part.

1960 was kind of a bad year for FoMoCo. They had to stop production on the Edsel early in that production year. This caused a lot of stuff to get moved around and re-purposed. The USA Meteor (Correction "Comet" it's an interstellar thing) production went from being part of the Edsel line up to being a car sold by Mercury dealers but it had no Mercury name on it yet. The Ford line up was trying to get more variation in it to help with slumping sales but they did OK. This had to have made for a lot of mixing and matching of parts. Most of the MEL engine line was dropped in favor of the FE with the Lincoln/Thunderbird 430 being the last of its type. The FE was only a few years into its run but eventually took over as the big engine for the Ford and Mercury lines. The Y blocks were kept for a long time until the 221/260/289 started catching up for the small block production. 1960 was the first year for the Falcon line so they were concentrating a lot of changes for that too. A lot of those early 60s Fords ended up in the salvage yards with the exceptions to the collectable models. You don't see too many of those big Fairlanes and early Galaxie cars on the streets any more.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-22-2018 at 01:43 PM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2018, 01:12 PM   #17
KULTULZ
Senior Member
 
KULTULZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY
Posts: 6,414
Post Re: Hello from NC!

The 1961 METEOR was a full sized MERC and an intermediate for 62/63 (based on the FAIRLANE platform).

The 1960/61 COMET was to be assigned to EDSEL DIV but EDSEL was dissolved in very early 1960 production. It (COMET) was not assigned to a car division until 1962 when it was then assigned to MERC DIV.

As for 1960 EDSEL, the handwriting was on the wall during 1959 production, the 59 being based solely on the FORD platform and MEL power being deleted other than LINC and J-BIRD.

EDIT-

I said LINC and BIRD.

MERC used the MEL (383-430) through the 1960 model year.

BIRD 1959-1960 (430)

LINC continued with the 430 for the 1960 model and went to the 462 MEL in the 1966 model year. Late 1968 LINC saw the 460CI 385 Series intro.

I hope I got it right this go-around ...

OH! The 60/61 COMET was sold through MERC dealers. That can cause a lot of confusion.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1960 COMET SW- EDSEL Badged.jpg (35.9 KB, 7 views)
__________________
*****

- DISCLAIMER -

The above posted information is in my opinion only (IMO) and may contain copy and paste material(s).

In addition, any above tech information is supplied in good faith. No responsibility implied or otherwise can be accepted for the way others use or interpret provided data.

Your experience(s), opinion(s) and mileage may vary.

DIAGNOSED CDO - (OCD In Correct Alphabetical Order)

Last edited by KULTULZ; 05-22-2018 at 01:56 PM. Reason: MISNOMER
KULTULZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2018, 01:42 PM   #18
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,371
Default Re: Hello from NC!

I was thinking Meteor for some reason. The Comet it was. Pop had both of them but the Comet was a dud. He swapped for a Meteor in 1962. At least it had a V8.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2018, 02:00 PM   #19
KULTULZ
Senior Member
 
KULTULZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY
Posts: 6,414
Thumbs up Re: Hello from NC!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scicala View Post

Sounds like you have he real thing there (except for the rods).

Sal
As Johnny Mathis would say...

Johnny Mathis - Chances Are - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEH3uqbpsm8
__________________
*****

- DISCLAIMER -

The above posted information is in my opinion only (IMO) and may contain copy and paste material(s).

In addition, any above tech information is supplied in good faith. No responsibility implied or otherwise can be accepted for the way others use or interpret provided data.

Your experience(s), opinion(s) and mileage may vary.

DIAGNOSED CDO - (OCD In Correct Alphabetical Order)
KULTULZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2018, 07:43 AM   #20
Jlau
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 11
Default Re: Hello from NC!

We have a new development! One of our mechanics realized that the C1TE-C rods DID NOT come out of the Sunliner, they came out of our 57 Skyliner with a 292. We went back to the parts shelves and he located the rods that he actually pulled out of the Sunliner. Lo and behold, they are EDC-6205-As, the correct rods for a 352/360. This occurred when I was not managing the collection, and the emphasis at that point was not checking numbers, but just getting the cars to run. The mechanic said that the pistons did not come up flush, so he replaced the the rods with longer ones. He didn't realize that it was the pistons that were incorrect. Now we have the incorrect rods and pistons in the car, which would explain some things. It runs fine, but I could never understand why the engine seemed average and did not act like one of Ford's strongest performers. I also found out that we tested the compression and it was lower than it should have been. Now we know why.

Which brings us to the next question. Should we tear down the engine and put the correct pistons and rods in? We are already going to be upside down on this car (my boss paid way too much for it). We would also have to find the correct pistons bored .30 over. I say "Hell, yes!" This car should be stump puller with the 3.89 rear. If the value of the car is mainly based upon the engine, I think that the engine should be intact and the car should drive like it was meant to. I will have this conversation with my boss at some point.

KULTULZ, I located a chat board from 2013 in which you participated. There was a guy there that tore down his 352/360 and took pictures of everything. It was awesome! The good news is that our heads and blocks had the same casting numbers. The next thing that I am going to do is look for that "HP" that is on the block that we didn't know to look for (and that you showed me). I"m not sure if that indicates the 360HP engine or not. As stated previously, I have always read that there were no numbers on the block indicating that engine, and this is why it could be readily faked.
Jlau is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:18 PM.