Steering column broke in half

[Lona]

The steering column in my '31 roadster broke in half today. Attached is a photo (if I can get it to load). The break is near the firewall at an old weld on the column done by a previous owner and I don't know why it was cut then. Since We have several shows coming up, I would like to remove the column only and weld on an overlapping sleeve for a temp fix until another column can be located.

Les Andrews book only shows removal of the whole steering assembly including the steering box. It looks like the column detaches from the steering box but can anyone help me with how to remove the column itself without the whole assembly? Will the column come out if I detach the steering wheel and slide the column up and out?

Also, since the outer column appears to only be a cover for the steering rod and lighting/horn wiring, would it be safe to drive it with the broken column until I can make a permanent fix?

Glen

[burner31]

Looks like it was fixed (welded) once before.
As for driving it. my gut feeling would be a big no.
You have two choices for pulling the unit, through the bottom or through the top.
Through the bottom you have to remove the steering wheel, floorboards and jack the car up.
Through the top disconnect everything from the steering box, remove the floorboards, brake and clutch pedals, and maybe the starter.
Others may have different suggestions, but to re-build my steering box this winter, I'll be going out through the top...most likely. (no steering wheel puller)

[Farrell In Vancouver]

Yowch! Bad break! I had a similar break on a AA column a while back, sorry to inform you it will all have to come out to repair it properly. Is your steering gear box affixed solidly to the frame? Thankfully you have it in a roadster so pulling it out shouldn't take more than a half hour. Once out on the bench you can pull the wheel, remove throttle and spark rods then slide the shaft tube off for repair.
Let us know how it goes, and good luck!

[Brentwood Bob]

No quick fix, and no driving until you fix it right. quickest way would be to replace the tube. that way after all the work it will be right.
before you do anything measure the tube. Then pm me. I have several. should plan to go thru the steering box at the same time while you have it apart.
Bob

[andyfresno]

Glen,

So, this is just a break in the tube - rig'ht?

I've seen this before - -I been told it is caused by tightening the bottom bolts, then needing to push up on the column to get in into the gas tank bracket. Puts a load on the tube - -vibration - -etc.

Yes you can get just the tube out of the car, have it welded again and use it. (lucky you have an open car; closed car it's a no go.

You probably know what to do - -remove steering wheel, unhook the rods, loosen the tube bracket, (lower the top). Take out the screws at the gas tank. I think that's it - -it should come out.

When you put it back, loosen the bolts on the box/frame. Tighten them after you have the gas tank bracket secure.

Good luck

[Lona]

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Originally Posted by Farrell In Vancouver

Yowch! Bad break! I had a similar break on a AA column a while back, sorry to inform you it will all have to come out to repair it properly. Is your steering gear box affixed solidly to the frame? Thankfully you have it in a roadster so pulling it out shouldn't take more than a half hour. Once out on the bench you can pull the wheel, remove throttle and spark rods then slide the shaft tube off for repair.
Let us know how it goes, and good luck!

Farrell,
The steering box is bolted to the frame. If I can pull the steering wheel and control rods with the whole assembly on the bench and then slide the tube off as you say, wouldn't it also be possible to do the same thing in the car without fooling with the steering box? I fully intend to replace the broken tube with a good one but I'm looking for a temp but safe fix in order to have the car at one of our biggest shows this Saturday.

Glen

[andyfresno]

I guess I didn't explain very well - -yes you can pull just the tube - -no need to pull the box.

By the way - -welding is not a very good fix, it's temporary at best - -this is great chance to get a new good tube and put in new shiny spark and throttle rods - -

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Glen'

It is all about playing the odds.

Here is just one (1) example:

In my humble opinion, with anyone driving with a Model A on today's highways with a steering column like that is about as dangerous as:

1. Going to a Garage Sale; and,

2. Buying a used, broken electric toaster; and,

3. Wrapping it in gift wrap; and,

4. Presenting it to one's wife on Christmas morning ......... while she has a large, hard maple pastry rolling pin in her hand.

Not really a highly technical, mechanical engineering suggestion .......... but .... just hope this helps to remind you to maybe call Steve at Bert's for a good used replacement.

[CA Victoria]

With only the tube to replace and in a roadster with plenty of room above it should only take a couple of hours to replace it.
I would not drive it until I could inspect the shaft. It is suspicious in as much as I would inspect to ensure it too has not been cut and welded.

[Lona]

Thanks to all for your input so far. At this point everything is apart ready to pull the tube but I'm having trouble getting the steering wheel off.....don't have a wheel puller. Have it soaking with WD40 for a few hours while I invent a puller. Anyone have any other tricks to get the wheel off?

Glen

[Brentwood Bob]

extreme care tapping on the threaded top of the column. takes a special puller IMHO.
Nothing is simple on a model a, especially the first time thru.
You need a puller, or a relieved nut that will not put stress on those paper thin and fragile threads.

[Big hammer]

Do a search Bill W knows of a trick sure fire always works

[Tom Wesenberg]

For a temporary fix you could even weld that tube in place without removing anything more than the top floorboard if need be.

[andyfresno]

I'm told this stuff works great - -never tried it

http://www.gpartsinc.com/p-5236-loct...sUQaAgrY8P8HAQ

[RandyinUtah]

I agree with Tom Wesenberg that it can be repaired right in the car for a quick fix. I repaired my column which had cracked in the same place and the repair has lasted for years.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by andyfresno

I'm told this stuff works great - -never tried it

http://www.gpartsinc.com/p-5236-loct...sUQaAgrY8P8HAQ

When I click on it I get Amber lights ! Wayne

[Floats]

Glen,
I have removed my wheel without a puller.
Sitting behind the wheel, turn the wheel in the plus position, ( + ) and with open palms, hit the wheel upwards on the intersections of the spoke and the ring, left, right, left, right. Try to set up a L, R vibration rather than brute force. Turn the wheel 90 degrees and repeat.

I have had success with removing the wheel on my A as well as my Chevy.

Take care not to break or crack the wheel.

Good luck and enjoy the show.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Floats

Glen,
I have removed my wheel without a puller.
Sitting behind the wheel, turn the wheel in the plus position, ( + ) and with open palms, hit the wheel upwards on the intersections of the spoke and the ring, left, right, left, right. Try to set up a L, R vibration rather than brute force. Turn the wheel 90 degrees and repeat.

I have had success with removing the wheel on my A as well as my Chevy.

Take care not to break or crack the wheel.

Good luck and enjoy the show.

ill try that on newer iron before i get the puller out by bracing on the brake pedal,,,but on an old wheel it will crack... thats why i didnt mention it earlier when the OP asked..

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

WD 40 isn't really a penatrating oil, it's a water displacement fluid.a protectant so to speak.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Here is just one (1) totally "impossible" scenario that could never happen in 1,000 years to any Model A owner:

1. After welding, Glen gets in a wreck with his Model A where someone is injured in the collision; and,

2. An attorney gets his hands on a copy of the attached thumbnail photo in Post No. 1, and subsequently photographs the repair weld for comparison; and,

3. Two (2) or three (3) expert mechanic witnesses come in court to give their opinions; and,

4. The jury sees these two (2) photos and listens to the expert witnesses; and,

5. Try to guess what is the most "impossible" decision that would never come out of these most intelligent jurors as to who will pay for the injured guy's therapy and wheel chair pushing nurse for life.

Sometimes repair advice often sounds great ..... that is ...... as long as it is a repair recommended for somebody else's car.

[dumb person]

On a model t the tube counters the torque applied to the steering wheel & hence vital the the steering. On a model A it does not serve that function. I have seen cars where the whole tube was removed to no ill effects, but i am not saying you should do that though.

[Lona]

Thanks to all who responded. The wheel still won't come off in spite of trying several of your suggestions including Bill Williamson's method of rocking the wheel with stiff arms and moving the body left and right. With the column broken in half, it's not fixed enough, it seems, to let this method work.

My wheel fastener is not the same as shown in the supplier's replacement parts where they show a flat 15/16" nut holding the wheel on the male threaded shaft. Mine is a 3/4" hollow shafted nut with a 1" long thread that screws down into female threads in the steering shaft. See attached photo. While hard to see because the wheel is not off yet, it appears the steering shaft is also threaded on its outside diameter. The wheel has two key ways but only one is used. The other one is open and I can push a small screwdriver through it and hit the spark quadrant.
While I may not be able to get to it until tomorrow, my next move will be to attach a heavy bolt eye to the ceiling of my garage, wrap the steering wheel with heavy cargo straps and us a come-along to winch the wheel off. It's on so tight, though, that I may end up dragging the car across the garage floor before it lets loose.

If anyone has seen this type of wheel attachment and can suggest other ways to get it off, please let me know.

I'll keep you posted on any progress......Glen

[H. L. Chauvin]

If you look at a $40.00 (+) steering wheel puller in a Model A parts catalog, it appears possible to quickly make a somewhat similar puller with bolts & 2x4's with:

1. Two (2) twelve inch long slightly shaped 2x4's placed behind steering wheel, (engine side); and,

2. One (1) perpendicular twelve inch long 2x4 placed on top of steering wheel, ( 90 degrees to the bottom 2x4's) where same can be fixed and tightened with two (2) half-inch (1/2") diameter through bolts, one on each side of the steering column; and,

3. Provide a hole in the center of the top 2x4 with a 1/2" wing nut with the two arms carefully carved and recessed into the bottom side, (steering wheel), side of this top 2x4; and,

4. On the bolt that goes through this top 2x4, provide and grind a slight point on the threaded bottom end of this bolt to fit in the shaft hole .... apply tension with the other two outer bolts while turning and subsequently tapping on this top center bolt.

Difficult to see what exactly you have, but maybe worth a try.

[Bob C]

Looks like somebody already trashed the threads on your steering shaft
and what you have is the fix. Snyder's sells something similar.
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/st...-thread-repair

Bob

[CarlG]

The steering wheel pullers that the vendors have are worthless. The one I bought bent all out of shape and didn't even budge the wheel.

What I ended up doing was (this is on a '31): after taking the horn rod out, drilling and tapping ¼-20 holes in the metal on two opposing spokes, then using a "real" wheel puller, pulling it right off. Make sure that the delicate threads on the shaft itself are well protected. The tapped holes do not show once the horn rod is put back in.

[Lona]

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Thanks so much to all of you for your suggestions. Nothing Worked until I tried a shade tree mechanic approach. See photo. I wrapped a chain around the shade tree, then attached a come-along winch to the chain. Then wrapped a cargo strap around the steering wheel and attached that to the 2 ton come-along. I backed the car down the incline toward the tree to get the correct pull angle on the steering column and started to winch it up. Only problem was the winch dragged the car toward the tree even with the hand brake on, in gear and wheels chocked.
To prevent the A from sliding on the driveway, I attached a cable from the front axle to the hitch on my Yukon and took up the slack so tightening the winch would have to drag both vehicles which I was confident it would not do.
I tightened the winch to the point I was afraid the straps would break but the wheel still would not budge. With all this pulling pressure on the wheel, I alternately beat on the rear of the steering wheel spokes with a sledge hammer. After about 20 shots, it finally let loose and luckily with no damage to the shaft end.
So, with the column now out of the car, hopefully I can get it welded back together again tomorrow and put it back together in time for the show on Sat. After all this, the forecast for Sat is 75 percent rain so all the headaches the past two days may be in vain anyway.

I am truly amazed about the guys on the Barn who always seem to be there when you need some help. Thank you all again.

Glen

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Lona,
Helping folks is the NAME OF THE GAME, along with a little "HUMOR" to help with lifes' "TRAUMAS"--SMILE, life here is SHORT!
Bill W.

[Dale G.]

If you haven't buggered up your steering wheel trying to get it off, cherish it. It is an original steering wheel used after Model A production on big Ford trucks through 1936. It is the same as a Model A and made of Bakelite but the center of the recessed area in the hub is not as shallow as the Model A. Still works fine on a Model A. The same light switch was used as the Model A but the rod was a different length. When you put it back on, use a little of Tom's red grease around the keyway so you can get it back off a little easier. Dale.

[Mitch//pa]

It looks like the tree moved a little

[pooch]

Originally Posted by Lona

Thanks so much to all of you for your suggestions. Nothing Worked until I tried a shade tree mechanic approach. See photo. I wrapped a chain around the shade tree, then attached a come-along winch to the chain. Then wrapped a cargo strap around the steering wheel and attached that to the 2 ton come-along. I backed the car down the incline toward the tree to get the correct pull angle on the steering column and started to winch it up. Only problem was the winch dragged the car toward the tree even with the hand brake on, in gear and wheels chocked.
To prevent the A from sliding on the driveway, I attached a cable from the front axle to the hitch on my Yukon and took up the slack so tightening the winch would have to drag both vehicles which I was confident it would not do.
I tightened the winch to the point I was afraid the straps would break but the wheel still would not budge. With all this pulling pressure on the wheel, I alternately beat on the rear of the steering wheel spokes with a sledge hammer. After about 20 shots, it finally let loose and luckily with no damage to the shaft end.
So, with the column now out of the car, hopefully I can get it welded back together again tomorrow and put it back together in time for the show on Sat. After all this, the forecast for Sat is 75 percent rain so all the headaches the past two days may be in vain anyway.

I am truly amazed about the guys on the Barn who always seem to be there when you need some help. Thank you all again.

Glen

Glen, your pic does not enlarge, can you re post, that would be a fun pic to look at.

You may have killed two birds with one stone and pulled some sag out of your chassis ....

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by Dale G.

If you haven't buggered up your steering wheel trying to get it off, cherish it. It is an original steering wheel used after Model A production on big Ford trucks through 1936. It is the same as a Model A and made of Bakelite but the center of the recessed area in the hub is not as shallow as the Model A. Still works fine on a Model A. The same light switch was used as the Model A but the rod was a different length. When you put it back on, use a little of Tom's red grease around the keyway so you can get it back off a little easier. Dale.

According to Vince's site it is not the same as the A.
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/BBsteeringwheel.htm

Bob

[Lona]

Originally Posted by Dale G.

If you haven't buggered up your steering wheel trying to get it off, cherish it. It is an original steering wheel used after Model A production on big Ford trucks through 1936. It is the same as a Model A and made of Bakelite but the center of the recessed area in the hub is not as shallow as the Model A. Still works fine on a Model A. The same light switch was used as the Model A but the rod was a different length. When you put it back on, use a little of Tom's red grease around the keyway so you can get it back off a little easier. Dale.

Dale,
Interesting that you identify my steering wheel as one from a truck. I thought something was odd about the setup because the shaft and wheel fastening nut is not the same as shown in the parts catalogs or Andrew's books for standard model A's. Would this mean also that the shaft is from a truck, and if so, is the steering box also from a truck? It looks like all the photos I have seen of a standard 2 tooth box.
I intend to grease it up a little after the column is repaired because the wheel needs to come off again when I replace the repaired column with a good one soon as the fall shows and tours are over.

Glen

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Glen,

No doubt just as many amazing and ingenious original thoughts occurred under a shade tree than that of inside of a Full Service Ford Dealer Shop.

You had questions like a Model A student ..... but, now you are a Model A Professor.

Thanks!

[Lona]

Pooch,
Don't know why the photo wouldn't enlarge. Attached is a second try. Would you know why it didn't enlarge so I can post properly in the future?

Glen

[Mitch//pa]

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Even a BRILLIANT mechanic sometimes has to resort to some OLD PROVEN "SHADE TREE" tricks! ( I got a "million" of them!)
Bill W.

[MickyD]

This happened to me about a month ago with my 28 roadster and I was lucky I was not seriously injured. It broke in a way that I was able to stop my car and maneuver it a 1/4? mile to a friends business. I had the 7 spline? changed out to a 2 spline and put in a remanufactured 1929 unit. I have had everything mechanically in or under my car replaced or repaired. I spent $4025 doing this but I am enjoying my car with safety. I really love my roadster more than any street rod. I also have a 64 T-Bird but my roadster is my dream car. You can't put a price on your life. I say fix it right or possibly suffer the consequences.

[pooch]

In my younger days, I used to tie a damaged car to a tree and drive off.

[Randy in ca]

Originally Posted by Lona

Pooch,
Don't know why the photo wouldn't enlarge. Attached is a second try. Would you know why it didn't enlarge so I can post properly in the future?

Glen

-

Works fine for me on both of your posts.

[Dodge]

I think that's right up there with the top 10 crazy and ingenious ways of working on a Model A. I think if some one did a calendar with Model A fixes on it this would be a top
contender.
Great picture, thanks

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by pooch

In my younger days, I used to tie a damaged car to a tree and drive off.

Once straightened the top on a "rollover", using a bumper jack for a PORTA-POWER--Once soldered a patch on a gas tank with a HEAT GUN. Put the bumpers tight together & used one long piece of old copper tubing for a jumper.
On the way home, once, left the Studebaker running @ the starter/generator shop & took off the starter off, so I could leave it there for a rebuild, was sorta' DANGEROUS, though!
Bill W.

[pooch]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Once straightened the top on a "rollover", using a bumper jack for a PORTA-POWER--Once soldered a patch on a gas tank with a HEAT GUN. Put the bumpers tight together & used one long piece of old copper tubing for a jumper.
On the way home, once, left the Studebaker running @ the starter/generator shop & took off the starter off, so I could leave it there for a rebuild, was sorta' DANGEROUS, though!
Bill W.

Well Bill, I thought I had heard it all, but that one sure takes the cake !!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by pooch

Well Bill, I thought I had heard it all, but that one sure takes the cake !!

You ain't heard nothing, Pooch,
A Datsun 210, with automatic, lost a long through bolt from the starter, the other one was BENT ! I held the starter together with my BARE hands & Gregg cranked it off !
Bill W.

[burner31]

Originally Posted by Lona

Thanks so much to all of you for your suggestions. Nothing Worked until I tried a shade tree mechanic approach. See photo. I wrapped a chain around the shade tree, then attached a come-along winch to the chain. Then wrapped a cargo strap around the steering wheel and attached that to the 2 ton come-along. I backed the car down the incline toward the tree to get the correct pull angle on the steering column and started to winch it up. Only problem was the winch dragged the car toward the tree even with the hand brake on, in gear and wheels chocked.
To prevent the A from sliding on the driveway, I attached a cable from the front axle to the hitch on my Yukon and took up the slack so tightening the winch would have to drag both vehicles which I was confident it would not do.
I tightened the winch to the point I was afraid the straps would break but the wheel still would not budge. With all this pulling pressure on the wheel, I alternately beat on the rear of the steering wheel spokes with a sledge hammer. After about 20 shots, it finally let loose and luckily with no damage to the shaft end.
So, with the column now out of the car, hopefully I can get it welded back together again tomorrow and put it back together in time for the show on Sat. After all this, the forecast for Sat is 75 percent rain so all the headaches the past two days may be in vain anyway.

I am truly amazed about the guys on the Barn who always seem to be there when you need some help. Thank you all again.

Glen

That pic of pulling a steering wheel using a tree blew me away.

Proof...There is no obstacle that can stop a "Barner"

[burner31]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Once straightened the top on a "rollover", using a bumper jack for a PORTA-POWER--Once soldered a patch on a gas tank with a HEAT GUN. Put the bumpers tight together & used one long piece of old copper tubing for a jumper.
On the way home, once, left the Studebaker running @ the starter/generator shop & took off the starter off, so I could leave it there for a rebuild, was sorta' DANGEROUS, though!
Bill W.

Bill:
You are one crazy puppy dog.
That starter...Wow, you are braver than I.
Glad you've made it this long.

[Floats]

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Been there done that.
Many years ago we had a starter motor failure on a B737 on an out station.
Our ground engineer suggested he removed starter on nr 1 while we load the pax, close the doors and start number 2. He then removed the starter from the running nr 2 engine, closed the cowls and fitted the starter to nr 1 off we went.

Have 'A' good weekend guys
Cheers

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

A guy loading logs in the mountains at night, ran his BIG lights too long & his Flathead V-8 wouldn't start. Took the plugs out of 4 Cyls, started it, ran it awhile to charge the KAPOOT battery. Put the plugs back in & OFF he went.
Bill W.

[Dale G.]

To Bob C. The steering wheel pictured in Vince's web-site is not the same one pictured by Glen or Lona or whoever the poster is. Maybe someone else can chime in on the poster's picture. I used to buy these steering wheels NOS in the flea markets and they worked fine. Dale.

[Lona]

Originally Posted by Dale G.

To Bob C. The steering wheel pictured in Vince's web-site is not the same one pictured by Glen or Lona or whoever the poster is. Maybe someone else can chime in on the poster's picture. I used to buy these steering wheels NOS in the flea markets and they worked fine. Dale.

Dale,
Attached is a better photo of the steering wheel. It would be nice to know what it came from if it is not from a standard model A.
The roadster is my wife Lona's car but I get to do all the work on it!

Glen

[Bob C]

That wheel looks like the soybean wheel with the conical hub instead
of the resin wheel. See the Standards page 8-5.

Bob