NEW starting problem

[1931 flamingo]

Finally got the 40 to start after replacing starter so w/a correct one. Generator started to motor (orig problem I think). Replaced volt regulator as someone suggested. Now when I connect battery generator still wants to "motor'. Bad generator??
It's a 48 block with an offset gen mount modified to use the orig hold down nut.
If it is the gen, which one do I order??
Any fix for this gen??
I don't want to go to an alternator because of the period correctness of the car.


Thanks in advance .
Paul in CT

[FlatheadTed]

Maybe ,The regulator or Generator is wired wrong or the regulator is still faulty .(the cut out part is stuck down) ,

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Finally got the 40 to start after replacing starter so w/a correct one. Generator started to motor (orig problem I think). Replaced volt regulator as someone suggested. Now when I connect battery generator still wants to "motor'. Bad generator??
It's a 48 block with an offset gen mount modified to use the orig hold down nut.
If it is the gen, which one do I order??
Any fix for this gen??
I don't want to go to an alternator because of the period correctness of the car.

Paul in CT

This almost has to be stuck points in the voltage regulator causing the generator to motor. Take the regulator cover off and look to see if any of the points are closed. DD

.

[1931 flamingo]

I will check. Can't believe that 2 regulators would do the same thing. Wiring is correct.
Paul in CT

[Mart]

Well either 2 regulators are wrong, or the wiring is incorrect.

How can the generator motor? It motors because it is being fed from the battery. You are the man on the ground and only you can troubleshoot it.
If you disconnect the arm terminal on the generator is it live?

This shouldn't be too hard to fix.

Mart.

[1931 flamingo]

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I will ck as soon as I can.
Running well before, all wires removed were replaced where they came from.
Frustrating..........
Paul in CT

[1931 flamingo]

I pulled the connection off the LARGE post on the back of the gen and it still motors, it's a two post gen.
Does the other connection go to the regulator??
Thanks.
Paul in CT

[glennpm]

Did you polarize or re-polarize the generator?

[1931 flamingo]

NO, someone local said to try disconnecting wires at the gen before polarizing.
Paul

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

I pulled the connection off the LARGE post on the back of the gen and it still motors, it's a two post gen.
Does the other connection go to the regulator??
Thanks.
Paul in CT

Hey Paul .....Let's start from scratch. Tell me about your VOLTAGE REGULATOR.

1....Does REGULATOR have THREE connection points?

2....If so, how is EACH one labeled? (BAT, GEN, FIELD) or (ARM, FIELD, BAT)?

3....I believe you said that your generator was a TWO-post generator. Does that mean that your Generator is marked with "FIELD" & "ARMATURE"?



Paul.....Please answer these questions carefully. Let's be precise, and NOT in a hurry!!

I'll be back after you verify the above, and we'll go from there. Put your glasses on & use plenty of light. DD


NEXT Time Around:





The FORD SYSTEM IS THE TYPE B CIRCUIT. Remove the field wire from the regulator and touch it over onto the B battery terminal for a second.

.

[1931 flamingo]

Thank you V8COOPMAN. The generator has two studs, can't discern any markings. One stud is larger than the other and is at the rear, the smaller stud is on the side. The regulator is marked ARM, Field, BAT just like the one it replaced.
It motors with enough force to turn the engine over.
The car had been running fine since the same marked regulator was replaced last year.
Problem started with just the generator humming/slight vibration but steadily got worse. I'm not a wiring guru.
Paul

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Thank you V8COOPMAN. The generator has two studs, can't discern any markings. One stud is larger than the other and is at the rear, the smaller stud is on the side. The regulator is marked ARM, Field, BAT just like the one it replaced.
It motors with enough force to turn the engine over.
The car had been running fine since the same marked regulator was replaced last year.
Problem started with just the generator humming/slight vibration but steadily got worse. I'm not a wiring guru.
Paul

OK Paul, so far....so good. There are TWO basic types of charging circuits....Type "A", and Type "B". This is determined by the generator itself, as well as the voltage regulator type.

Fords of that vintage should be of the "B" type. I BELIEVE that "B" type regulators have three terminals marked as yours is...ARM--FLD--BAT.

Your wiring connections should look as below.





NOW Paul .....Some things you need to realize. You said that your regulator started-out VIBRATING/HUMMING. That MAY be as a result of NOT polarizing a new generator or regulator BEFORE starting the engine initially.

I'm thinking that you POSSIBLY may have already done some harm to that new regulator, but possibly NOT. But, it needs to be properly polarized. Before we go ant farther, you MUST verify that YOUR wiring connections resemble that diagram above, or the UPPER HALF of colored diagram BELOW.

BIG wire between BIG lug on REAR of generator and "ARM" on regulator.

SMALLER wire between SMALL lug on SIDE of generator and "FLD" on regulator.

LARGER size wire from BATTERY or SOLENOID connection, POSSIBLY through ammeter, and on to "BAT" on regulator.

The UPPER HALF of this diagram (BELOW) shows about what your connections should look like....NEG BAT post if POS GROUND. You MAY, or MAY NOT have that separate GROUND WIRE.





Now, with ALL wiring connections verified, let's attempt to polarize.

First, remove the BATTERY CABLE connection at POS BATTERY post. This will take any power off of regulator, like starting from scratch.

Now, re-attach CABLE to POS BATT post.

DO NOT turn key on! DO NOT crank engine!


CAREFULLY, remove the "FLD" wire from terminal on regulator. DO NOT let it touch any metal surface.

Carefully, take the end of "FLD" wire and briefly TOUCH it to the "BAT" terminal on VOLTAGE REGulator. Do that a couple of times. You should see a slight spark each time.

Now, carefully re-connect the "FLD" wire to the "FLD" terminal on voltage regulator.


PLEASE...Follow these directions explicitly, and IN ORDER!
__________________________________________________ ______


Now, crank-up your engine and tell us what your results are. Hopefully, all will be normal. If NOT normal, it's likely that your regulator (or generator) is damaged internally.

ANY TIME you work on GEN or REGULATOR circuits, you MUST re-polarize. It also won't hurt to re-polarize any time BATTERY is disconnected from circuit.

What do ya think, Paul? DD












.

[Mart]

My 32 showed a massive discharge on the ammeter when I first started it.
It was ok after repolarising the generator.
I showed it in my start up video.
Mart.

[1931 flamingo]

V8COOPMAN & Mart, When I put the regulator on I DID polarize it. Even with the new reg polarized and wires correct it still motors.
Paul

[glennpm]

Hi Paul,


Regarding your earlier post "NO, someone local said to try disconnecting wires at the gen before polarizing", I urge you to go through the steps that v8coopman laid out for you so you can check it off from your list :-)


Glenn

[51 MERC-CT]

A lot of interesting and perhaps useful information but I have just one thought, thank heaven for one wire alternators.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Thank you V8COOPMAN. The generator has two studs, can't discern any markings. One stud is larger than the other and is at the rear, the smaller stud is on the side. The regulator is marked ARM, Field, BAT just like the one it replaced.
It motors with enough force to turn the engine over.
The car had been running fine since the same marked regulator was replaced last year.
Problem started with just the generator humming/slight vibration but steadily got worse. I'm not a wiring guru.
Paul

Is this possible? I had the points stick on a regulator one time and
all it did was smoke the generator.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Hi Paul,


Regarding your earlier post "NO, someone local said to try disconnecting wires at the gen before polarizing", I urge you to go through the steps that v8coopman laid out for you so you can check it off from your list :-)

Paul .....AGAIN, I will suggest taking the cover off of the regulator. Check to see if any of the contacts (points) are closed with the ignition TURNED OFF?

Have you taken the generator to a shop to have IT'S health evaluated?

Other than this, the only other POSSIBILITY that comes to mind is the grounding of the generator itself, as well as the grounding of the regulator.

Take your ohm meter probes and verify that you have continuity between generator case and intake manifold. Also verify that you have continuity between regulator base and engine block. As a matter of fact, you should have continuity between regulator BASE, and GENERATOR case. DD

.

[mfirth]

I've seen regulators do funny things. Had a charging problem, took the cover off & it charged fine. Cover back on, no charge. I found a plastic butter container & taped it in place temporarily till I got a new regulator. Kept " the buttered" up one as a spare....go figure.....

[1931 flamingo]

I did polarize the regulator wheen I installed it. Identicle to the one taken off and wires went back to same places. I had a few minutes to day and removed the wire from the SMALL stud on the side of the generator, applied power and it still motored. There is a small ground strap from the gen to the block and the mounting is bare metal. The gen was taken to a shop and I was told it was good. Only thing he was concerned with iss the armature had a little front to rear movement, maybe a "smidge" over 1/8".
Paul

[Mart]

Paul. You don't polarise the regulator, you polarise the generator.
With all connections in place, you remove the field wire at the regulator and flash it on the bat terminal a couple of times then reattach it. This is pre-loading the field terminals with the correct voltage to polarise the generator. In effect you put a straight 12V* straight to the field windings.
* if you are running 12V if not, 6V.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

I did polarize the regulator wheen I installed it. Identicle to the one taken off and wires went back to same places. I had a few minutes to day and removed the wire from the SMALL stud on the side of the generator, applied power and it still motored. There is a small ground strap from the gen to the block and the mounting is bare metal. The gen was taken to a shop and I was told it was good. Only thing he was concerned with iss the armature had a little front to rear movement, maybe a "smidge" over 1/8".
Paul

Paul ....This is NOT going well. I 've spent a lot of time involved with this for the past two days. Most IMPORTANTLY, I have attempted to be very methodical in asking questions. I've also tried to be very clear and detailed with my questions. I have asked you some very specific questions, but you tend to come back with FEW specific answers. I have a specific reason for asking each question of you.

PLEASE understand that I don't mind helping you at all. But I do not enjoy wasting OUR time. So.....I believe we should start over ONCE AGAIN. I will ask clear and detailed questions. I will number each question so as to make the answers easily identifiable. I will ask that you answer EACH question specifically and completely. I may make an explanatory comment after each question. These comments will begin with two X's (XX) so that you know it is not a question requiring an answer. Here goes!
__________________________________________________ _______


1. You say that you had the generator checked. You said that the ARMATURE post had some slight movement. Earlier, you said that the posts were NOT marked. Which post on generator are you calling the ARMATURE....the side post, or the rear post?


XX --BOTH of those generator posts should be insulated, and not able to move, even a smidge. That could POSSIBLY cause problems if either post is shorting to the case. It could also cause problems if there is a loose connection inside. The guy who checked your generator for you is an idiot!


2. You said that today, you removed the wire from the SMALL stud on generator (That SHOULD be the FIELD wire). You then said: "I removed the wire from the SMALL stud on the side of the generator, applied power and it still motored." When you did that, did you apply the power to that FIELD wire, or to the FIELD post on GENERATOR?

3. HOW did you apply that POWER? WHAT was that power source, and what was the approximate voltage?


4. Earlier in this thread, you indicated that you were NOT sure what the POLARIZING process involved. Then in my lengthy POST #12 above, I went through that POLARIZING process STEP by STEP. You indicate that you POLARIZED the regulator when you installed it. You HAVE NOT indicated that you POLARIZED it AGAIN after I explained the process, and I requested that you polarize it again, when I told you that we needed to start from scratch.

So, in THIS order, will you please (with engine and ignition turned-off) remove BATTERY CABLE at POSITIVE BATT post. Now, re-install that battery cable on POSITIVE BATT post. Carefully remove FIELD wire from REGULATOR.
Carefully, take the end of "FLD" wire and briefly TOUCH it to the "BAT" terminal on VOLTAGE REGulator. Do that a couple of times. You should see a slight spark each time. Now, carefully re-connect the "FLD" wire to the "FLD" terminal on voltage regulator. Now, have you re-polarized following that precise procedure?


XX... Paul, the reason that we must do this in an organized manner is because I don't have a clue what you have possibly done taking wires off in the wrong order, with power on, & with power off. Your loose post on GENERATOR may have shorted-out the generator, or even the regulator. You CAN'T just go poking around and disconnecting things hap-hazardly with some of these electrical systems.


5. I had asked that you RE-VERIFY that the wires are correctly hooked-up at generator & voltage regulator. I'm going to ask that you VERIFY that YOUR proper wires (both ends) DO MATCH the connections in the TOP HALF of colored drawing BELOW. Now, have you re-polarized following that precise procedure? Now, do you still have the 'motoring' problem?




So, what do we have, Paul? DD






.

[1931 flamingo]

V8COOPMAN. I do realize you are trying to help me and I appreciate it.
1. The studs on the gen are TIGHT. It's the arm itself that has some front to rear movement.
2. I've got a batt disconnect on the POS terminal on the battery which is how "I apply power".
3. The source is the 6V batt, approx 6.3 V.
4. Will get to car in a while.


This problem started PRIOR to changing sol or regulaator.
Paul

[Bob C]

In your original starting problem thread (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304488) it sounded like you had the wrong solenoid
but there was never any mention if that problem was solved.
In this thread you say that the generator motoring is turning the engine over
when you turn your battery disconnect on, which I find hard to believe.
Could you humor me and disconnect both wires from the generator and then
turn the battery disconnect on and see what happens.

[AnthonyG]

Originally Posted by Mart

Well either 2 regulators are wrong, or the wiring is incorrect.

How can the generator motor? It motors because it is being fed from the battery. You are the man on the ground and only you can troubleshoot it.
If you disconnect the arm terminal on the generator is it live?

This shouldn't be too hard to fix.

Mart.

Coopman is giving great instruction & pictorals & I totally respect his knowledge but Mart is making sense. If it was working as wired before until Gen started acting wacky & & you replaced with correct regulator & wire the same as before & it’s not the points in the reg. stuck, then you gotta have an issue in your wiring. Is the wiring old? Could be shorting between wires bringing / sending current thru reg.?

[1931 flamingo]

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Yes, original wiring. Trying to find somebody to replace it all.
Paul
V8, will do rest of checks tomorrow.

[koates]

I have never ever seen a generator being able to turn over a flathead V8 engine via the fan belt even if the generator is powered up from the battery to make it motor, just not possible. Now you finally make a mention that you have replaced the starter solenoid. You have the wrong solenoid or the one you have is wired so that it engages as soon as you turn the battery switch on and the starter motor is cranking the engine over. NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GENERATOR. With all respects some people who know nothing about auto electrics should leave these jobs to people who do know what they are doing. Disconnect your small solenoid wires and see if the cranking stops. Regards, Kevin.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by koates

I have never ever seen a generator being able to turn over a flathead V8 engine via the fan belt even if the generator is powered up from the battery to make it motor, just not possible. Now you finally make a mention that you have replaced the starter solenoid. You have the wrong solenoid or the one you have is wired so that it engages as soon as you turn the battery switch on and the starter motor is cranking the engine over. NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GENERATOR. With all respects some people who know nothing about auto electrics should leave these jobs to people who do know what they are doing. Disconnect your small solenoid wires and see if the cranking stops. Regards, Kevin.

Damn....That Koates fellow down there upside down is a pretty sharp THINKER! You may just be on to something, Kevin! DD
.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Damn....That Koates fellow down there upside down is a pretty sharp THINKER! You may just be on to something, Kevin! DD
.

Similar to what I said in post #24.

[koates]

V8COOPMAN, Thanks for the praise up but im just a simple mechanic/electrician. You are the patient one with all the tech info and drawings. I get somewhat frustrated when trying to help people who just wont do the checks that are being advised. And then there are the others who answer problems who have no idea what they are talking about. I think some are just in the race to have the highest number of posts on here. RANT OVER. There is no way that a generator wired to run as a motor with a tight belt would have enough torque to rotate a v8 motor with the spark plugs in place. 2nd RANT OVER. Problem is the asker of the questions often does not give all the information. which would help diagnose the fault. And then when they have fixed the problem with your advice you never hear about it. 3rd RANT OVER. Regards, Kevin

[koates]

Bob C, YOU showed very good thinking on this one as well. Correct on all accounts. Regards, Kevin.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by koates

V8COOPMAN, Thanks for the praise up but im just a simple mechanic/electrician. You are the patient one with all the tech info and drawings. I get somewhat frustrated when trying to help people who just wont do the checks that are being advised.

Bob C & Kevin BOTH .....I went through the greatest part of my career with FAA as a mechanical & electrical type at a busy Air Traffic Control Center. More notably, I pride myself as a detail-oriented and pre-planner type. Patience is also a strong virtue of mine, and I try my best to COMMUNICATE concisely with folks....to include those that MAY be a little behind the UNDERSTANDING or LEARNING curve (as Kevin alludes to)....hence, my penchant for supportive and informational drawings & diagrams.

Bob....I completely missed your "spot-on" assessment, and Kevin....YOU don't miss much either, and on a regular basis, too! I probably would have enjoyed working with either of you's guys! Dick D (DD)

PS: As far as I'm concerned, Paul's 'problem' has been debunked by a couple of the best.

.

[Tinker]

Coop thanks for the resume. No one was questioning your car credentials or whom you would only hang out with. Your a smart guy. I'm sure slamming this guy really is what every previous poster was hoping to do. Be well.


Maybe this guy invented punch cards computers, maybe he worked on city plumbing dynamics, maybe he is a retired road worker.


Helping isn't always effective with a bunch of information in a post on the internet and getting frustrated to the reaction. Sometimes help requires understanding what someone needs and maybe some physical help. Not what you know and post only. Is the objective to help or to post how much you know. It is an interesting thing.


.

[1931 flamingo]

My battery needs charging and I need new leads for my meter. Bear with me please.
I thought somebody mentioned disconnecting the lead from the starter sw to the solenoid, I did and no change.
KOATES: It does motor counterclockwise even with the fan belt on.


I DO appreciate the help/advice given here, and am trying to answer the questions/suggestions given.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

I thought somebody mentioned disconnecting the lead from the starter sw to the solenoid, I did and no change.

So Paul .....Read this CAREFULLY!

Are you telling us that you had your BATTERY DISCONNECT SWITCH OFF?

And while the BATT SWITCH was off, you disconnected the small wire (to the start BUTTON) from the SMALL TERMINAL on the solenoid?

And then, when you turned the BATT SWITCH back ON, "the generator began motoring"?

IS that clearly what you're saying?


IF THAT IS what you are saying happened, we know the fix! We can make ONE MORE check with the ohm meter to prove it. DD


.

[koates]

When speaking of things running clockwise or anticlockwise then you should be looking at the driven or driving end. In the case of your generator you look at the front of the pulley which means it would rotate clockwise, even when motoring. You still have me very puzzled over this situation. Please disconnect all of the three wires from your voltage regulator ( leave both wires on the generator connected) and turn the battery ON. What happens ? Also how many small wires or terminals are on your starter solenoid ? Regards, Kevin.

[1931 flamingo]

Battery still dead and new meter hasn't arrived yet.


I'm sorry I may have mis-spoke, it does rotate CLOCKWISE.
Paul
I will do what was suggested when battery charged.
Paul

[JSeery]

Very interesting thread! Flamingo, hope you hang in there and post what you find out is the solution!! Sure sounds like something is wired up wrong.

[sugarmaker]

Paul,
Yes hang in there. I have smoked a couple systems by having wires I thought were in the right place, not in the right place. One time in a regulator I had blue wire going to "B" terminal for battery just because it starts with same letter. Your doing good and these guys will help from afar!
Regards
Chris

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Battery still dead and new meter hasn't arrived yet.


I'm sorry I may have mis-spoke, it does rotate CLOCKWISE.
Paul
I will do what was suggested when battery charged.
Paul

OK Paul, we're back, and your battery must be charged, and hopefully, your VOM meter is working again. So, let's get your problems solved and get you rollin' again!

Now, you say that you have re-polarized the generator. Let's try a NEW experiment.
__________________________________________________ ____

With your BATTERY disconnect turned-OFF, can you disconnect BOTH wires from the generator? That should be the smaller FIELD wire on the side, and the larger ARMATURE wire at the rear. CAREFULLY BEND BOTH WIRES so that they will NOT touch anything nearby.

Now, turn your BATTERY disconnect switch back to ON.

Now, is the engine ATTEMPTING to TURN-OVER by itself? IF YES, turn your BATTERY disconnect OFF!

So, did ANYTHING happen?

DD







.

[1931 flamingo]

Sorry, didn't see this back up again.
I re-polarized the reg/gen. All wires on reg in correct position. I will do the above suggestion this am.
Paul in CT

[1931 flamingo]

V8COOPMANN
With BOTH wires off the gen and batt disconnect ON, it still motored !
Interesting.
Paul in CT

[Bob C]

Finally, now we know it's the starter solenoid.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

V8COOPMANN
With BOTH wires off the gen and batt disconnect ON, it still motored !
Interesting.
Paul in CT

OK PAUL!

Now, let's THINK about it! With BOTH wires off of the generator, it is VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the GENERATOR to "motor"! Can you agree with that?

I have suspected that your solenoid has likely had it's 'shuttle' (the movable plunger inside the solenoid) freeze in the "energized" position. This would mean that ANY TIME that your BATTERY cut-off switch is closed (turned-on), the starter will crank the engine over. In other words, your solenoid is KAPUT! It possibly has a dead short running through it.

So, let's re-affirm. With BOTH wires disconnected from your generator, when you turned BATT disconnect on, the generator DID NOT turn, but the engine cranked-over?

Is THIS the condition we now have?


If so, we will run one more simple test! DD

.



.

[glennpm]

It could also be a stuck in, grounded/shorted wire or internally fused starter button. Paul, could you please disconnect the wire to the starter button and try turning your battery cut-off switch on?

If that test fails disconnect the wire at the solenoid that goes to the starter button.

If both fail the solenoid is defective.

https://thirdgenauto.com/shop-parts/...ct_cat=starter


Glenn

[V8COOPMAN]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by glennpm

It could also be a stuck in, grounded wire or internally fused starter button. Paul, could you please disconnect the wire to the starter button and try turning your battery cut-off switch on?


Glenn

Very true! So as not to confuse stuff, let's let Paul report back, one test at a time. DD
.

[glennpm]

Yes agreed!

[1931 flamingo]

Yes,the engine turned over. Disconnected the starter button wire at the solonoid, still turned over. It's a new sol from Joe's.
New reg from Joe's.


Paul

[Mart]

Do you have the battery and starter cables connected to the same side of the solenoid? If not then the solenoid is faulty.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Yes,the engine turned over. Disconnected the starter button wire at the solonoid, still turned over. It's a new sol from Joe's.
New reg from Joe's.


Paul

Hey Paul .....NOW you're cooking, my friend. We're getting somewhere doing these steps in a methodical manner.

So, now you SHOULD be able to see that the generator was NOT "motoring" all this time. Kevin and Bob C both were on to something having to do with the solenoid last week. I'm going one step further THINKING that you have a defective solenoid, doing what I described in my POST #44 above.

So Paul, let's run ONE last test. Make sure your BATT disconnect is OFF.

Make sure that the SMALL wire is disconnected from the small post on solenoid.

Set your METER to OHMS.....that 'horseshoe'-looking symbol. Note what your meter reads when you touch BOTH probes together.....CONTINUITY.

Now, touch one meter lead to the big lug on your solenoid with BATT cable.

Then, touch the OTHER meter lead to the big lug on solenoid CONNECTED to STARTER.

Does the meter show CONTINUITY?

DD





.

[Bob C]

This was posted on his starter thread.




Senior Member



Join Date: May 2010
Location: new britain,ct 06052
Posts: 9,116


Re: Starting problem, help please.
Still have trouble. I've made sure starter push button is grounded. The only way I can get it to turnover is to jump from the neg battery terminal to thee small stud on the new solenoid. Solenoid BAD??
Paul in CT

[koates]

Paul, you may have the incorrect type of solenoid fitted. The original Ford type has only one small terminal which has to be grounded by the starter push button to operate the starter. There is another type that requires power from the starter button to the small terminal to activate the starter. Then there is another type that has two small terminals. There are other types as well. Also the main battery cable and the starter main cable have to be the correct way around. So just exactly what do you have ? Regards, Kevin.

[1931 flamingo]

To all: I feel so stupid for misdiagnosing the problem I can't sleep.
Originally I did have the wrong sol installed (from NAPA), got the correct one from Joe's. Then I was able to get the car to start but when shut off the gen at first started to make noise and then eventually it would turn over(I now realize it was the starter trying and then succeeding to engage.
V8COOPMAN, I will do the latest test in the morning.
Paul
Thanks to all for bearing with me.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

To all: I feel so stupid for misdiagnosing the problem I can't sleep.
Originally I did have the wrong sol installed (from NAPA), got the correct one from Joe's. Then I was able to get the car to start but when shut off the gen at first started to make noise and then eventually it would turn over(I now realize it was the starter trying and then succeeding to engage.
V8COOPMAN, I will do the latest test in the morning.
Paul
Thanks to all for bearing with me.

Paul ....No need for beating yourself up. I've made a mistake or three over the years. No doubt that going through the symptoms methodically, all roads point to either a seized plunger, or the wrong solenoid entirely. The one you want is available from several sources. I like Michael Driskell's 3rd Gen Automotive in Tennessee for friendly, KNOWLEDGEABLE help from Michael himself on the phone. He has the stock type solenoid like you need. You need an "01A-11450" Solenoid. Tell Michael that you want that nice METAL solenoid like below! It is even clearly marked which pole the BATTERY cable goes on....it makes a difference!

Ask to speak with Michael Driskell himself, and he will make sure you get the CORRECT solenoid. When you receive it, I will be happy to help make sure that you have no trouble installing it, plus we're going to have to re-polarize your generator again. I'm glad to help, or Kevin or Bob C....any of us will get ya going comfortably. DD






Contact Michael Driskell at 3rd Gen Automotive (Click the link BELOW):

https://thirdgenauto.com/


Third Gen Automotive
Phone: 844-327-5988
2600 Old Nashville Hwy
McMinnville, TN 37110

.

[1931 flamingo]

I will ck the continuity today and re-order. The last one I got from Joe's, nutton on the bottom and Ford logo.
Again, Thanks.
Paul

[glennpm]

Hi Paul,

Is the one from Joe like the 3rd gen one Like that that I linked and DD posted a picture of?
Call Joe, he knows what he is doing and very helpfully.

Glenn

[1931 flamingo]

Yes, same solenoid,button on bottom, same part #.
V8COOPMAN: It shows continuity. Re-ordering today (2, just in case).
Paul in CT

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Yes, same solenoid,button on bottom, same part #.
V8COOPMAN: It shows continuity. Re-ordering today (2, just in case).
Paul in CT

Ya done GOOD, Paul! No way that solenoid should show continuity across those two BIG lugs. That is like hooking starter directly to BATT!

Hopefully, we ALL have learned how important it is to do methodical testing, ONE step at a time. Once the NEW solenoid shows-up, you should be rollin' & cruisin' in an hour or less. Glad you're on your way!

That Tinky thingy can go pound sand! DD

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

That Tinky thingy can go pound sand! DD

Geez, you can't let it go can you! hahaha. You were going to write this off and move on to the next post previously. I don't care if you think I should pound sand.

Glad you slowed down and talked with the individual and not just throw info and talking about some guys can't get it. Read the previous threads and think about it. Maybe just post the info and see what happens or doesn't.


"Patience is also a strong virtue of mine, and I try my best to COMMUNICATE concisely with folks....to include those that MAY be a little behind the UNDERSTANDING or LEARNING curve (as Kevin alludes to)....hence, my penchant for supportive and informational drawings & diagrams.

[1931 flamingo]

V8COOPMAN
Thanks for "hanging" in there for me. The sol DID work when originally put in a week and a half ago. Just a bad one or could something have caused it to fail??
Will update when I get new sol.
Paul in CT

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

V8COOPMAN
Thanks for "hanging" in there for me. The sol DID work when originally put in a week and a half ago. Just a bad one or could something have caused it to fail??
Will update when I get new sol.
Paul in CT

Hey Paul.....As I tried to briefly describe what I believe happened to your solenoid earlier on, I've about concluded that the plunger inside has somehow seized in the "CLOSED" (START) position. In other words, the plunger is holding the contacts permanently connected electrically.

The inside of that type of solenoid looks SOMETHING like the drawing below IN THEORY.





In this drawing, imagine the two vertical posts coming out the top of the drawing as the TWO BIG POSTS on either side of your solenoid. One post has the BATT cable. The other post has the cable going to STARTER.

When you push your starter button, that SMALL post in the center of your solenoid becomes grounded. This action causes an electro magnetic force to move a plunger inside the solenoid. When it moves to it's extreme, it causes a contact plate to electrically connect BOTH of those BIG POSTS (like the THREE heavy-black-colored pieces toward top of drawing). When those two posts are connected like that, the starter RUNS.

It would be easy for that flat, BLACK bar in the drawing to become so hot that it could have welded itself to those two HEAVY BLACK posts, thus....causing your starter to be connected directly to your BATTERY CONTINUOUSLY!

Your OHM meter proved that SOMETHING is connecting those two posts INTERNALLY. Solenoid "NO WORKIE"! What 'cha think, Paul?

One suggestion MAYBE....Don't EVER continuously try to crank & crank & crank the engine if it does not start in a reasonable amount of time. Give those contacts inside the solenoid a chance to cool down before continuing to crank on starter. DD









.

[glennpm]

Nice gif to show how the metallic rod is pulled with magnetism to close the circuit to the starter, i.e. the heavy black parts in DD's post.



https://ecampus.matc.edu/mihalj/scit...solenoid_B.GIF

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Nice gif to show how the metallic rod is pulled with magnetism to close the circuit to the starter, i.e. the heavy black parts in DD's post.



https://ecampus.matc.edu/mihalj/scit...solenoid_B.GIF

[1931 flamingo]

Replaced the starter sol and all is good except it won't start. I may have "fried" the electronic module.
Paul


Thank you all for "hangin" in there with me.
Paul in CT

[glennpm]

Hi Paul,


You may have fried the Petronix. Thisis from the installation instructions:


"Q. What happens if you leave the ignition switch on when the engine is not running?
A. This can cause your coil to overheat, which may cause permanent damage to the coil and the ignitor."


This is how you can test the unit:
http://www.ttalk.info/Tech/PerPosGndTest.htm

[Darrell S]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

[QUOTE=V8COOPMAN;2066165]OK Paul, so far....so good. There are TWO basic types of charging circuits....Type "A", and Type "B". This is determined by the generator itself, as well as the voltage regulator type.

Fords of that vintage should be of the "B" type. I BELIEVE that "B" type regulators have three terminals marked as yours is...ARM--FLD--BAT.

Your wiring connections should look as below.





NOW Paul .....Some things you need to realize. You said that your regulator started-out VIBRATING/HUMMING. That MAY be as a result of NOT polarizing a new generator or regulator BEFORE starting the engine initially.

I'm thinking that you POSSIBLY may have already done some harm to that new regulator, but possibly NOT. But, it needs to be properly polarized. Before we go ant farther, you MUST verify that YOUR wiring connections resemble that diagram above, or the UPPER HALF of colored diagram BELOW.

BIG wire between BIG lug on REAR of generator and "ARM" on regulator.

SMALLER wire between SMALL lug on SIDE of generator and "FLD" on regulator.

LARGER size wire from BATTERY or SOLENOID connection, POSSIBLY through ammeter, and on to "BAT" on regulator.

The UPPER HALF of this diagram (BELOW) shows about what your connections should look like....NEG BAT post if POS GROUND. You MAY, or MAY NOT have that separate GROUND WIRE.





Now, with ALL wiring connections verified, let's attempt to polarize.

First, remove the BATTERY CABLE connection at POS BATTERY post. This will take any power off of regulator, like starting from scratch.

Now, re-attach CABLE to POS BATT post.

DO NOT turn key on! DO NOT crank engine!


CAREFULLY, remove the "FLD" wire from terminal on regulator. DO NOT let it touch any metal surface.

Carefully, take the end of "FLD" wire and briefly TOUCH it to the "BAT" terminal on VOLTAGE REGulator. Do that a couple of times. You should see a slight spark each time.

Now, carefully re-connect the "FLD" wire to the "FLD" terminal on voltage regulator.


PLEASE...Follow these directions explicitly, and IN ORDER!
__________________________________________________ ______


Now, crank-up your engine and tell us what your results are. Hopefully, all will be normal. If NOT normal, it's likely that your regulator (or generator) is damaged internally.

ANY TIME you work on GEN or REGULATOR circuits, you MUST re-polarize. It also won't hurt to re-polarize any time BATTERY is disconnected from circuit.

What do ya think, Paul? DD


I have been looking at this older thread. I have put a new battery in the 48
(6 volt) and after running for awhile the battery doesn't charge. I see that DD is saying that each time the battery is disconnected from the system it must be re-polarized. I have never done this at each disconnect. Would this mean that if one has a battery disconnect switch installed they should re-polarize each time it is turned off? When I leave the car parked for long periods I disconnect the battery. Should it be re-polarized each time? Obviously I'm not an electrical trouble shooter.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

To all: I feel so stupid for misdiagnosing the problem I can't sleep.
.................................................. .....
Paul
Thanks to all for bearing with me.

Paul been there done that -These guys don't mind . With the last major problem I had I thought some of the posters were going to pull all their hair out with me . They just get frustrated when they can't fix it for us. Believe me this is all part of the learning process .
If you've never felt stupid you've never learned anything -Karl

[40 Deluxe]

Reading through this old thread I was amused in a sad sort of way. So many needless contortions! So much unnecessary confusion! Remember the KISS principle.
Simply label and remove every wire on the generator, regulator and solenoid (these parts were recently changed or messed with). Next, reattach the wires one at a time until "the generator starts to motor". There is your problem! (Hmmm, it happened when I connected the solenoid!) So simple!

[1931 flamingo]

For you maybe...............


I didn't understand OHM's Law in High School. The Navy sent me through a year of Electronic's schools and then I worked for 29 years at IBM and KODAK fixing copiers. I still don't get OHM's Law.
Paul

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

For you maybe...............


I didn't understand OHM's Law in High School. The Navy sent me through a year of Electronic's schools and then I worked for 29 years at IBM and KODAK fixing copiers. I still don't get OHM's Law.
Paul

Is that the one what goes up must come down?

[1931 flamingo]

'Morning Ron


Good luck on Sunday.
Too much walking for me and I don't need anything.


Paul