41 Ford engine help

[Trailerparkhardware]

Hello,
I just got a 1941 Ford Sedan with a V8 flathead. I believe it to be the original engine. This is my first flathead and I am having a bit of trouble. I can get the engine to start every time but when you hit the gas pedal it falls on its face and stalls. It has no power and wont rev up. I believe that to be a timing issue but I am not sure. I am not sure just how to time a flat head and how to find top dead center. I have read quite a bit about guys having no power and it being the coil. I have bought a kit to relocate the coil but I have not installed it yet. Not sure where to start. All advise is welcome.
Thank you,

[Tinker]

thinking it's a fuel issue at this point, maybe timing (but I'd look at fuel first). I'd hold off on the coil relocation. If you get it running and 20 minutes later it leaves you stranded. I'd look at coil.



If it sits at idle, I'd guess the timing is within running. Flatheads are very forgiving with timing, they will run full throttle off. Better timed well, but will run.



Just my opinion.

[petehoovie]

Give us a little history on the car.....such as when did this problem start. Has the car been sitting for a long period of time etc. etc...

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by petehoovie

Give us a little history on the car.....such as when did this problem start. Has the car been sitting for a long period of time etc. etc...

Sorry I do not have much history. I just bought the car a week ago with this problem. The compression is 90 in all cylinders. The fuel pump looks to be new. The person I bought the car from said the fuel tank was bad and put in a fuel cell. When I got it I primed to carb by filling the bowl with gas and it starts right up and runs quiet not lifter noise. if you hit the throttle you can hear the air suck in the carb but it will not rev up and it seems to start to miss. If you floor it. It will stall. It will start right back up though. I sprayed the out side of the carb with starter fluid to see if I had a vacuum leak but did not find one.It does not have a fuel filter so I bought a glass bowl style and was going to install it this weekend so I can see what the fuel is doing.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by Tinker

thinking it's a fuel issue at this point, maybe timing (but I'd look at fuel first). I'd hold off on the coil relocation. If you get it running and 20 minutes later it leaves you stranded. I'd look at coil.


Just my opinion.

Thanks. It does not have a fuel filter so I bought a glass bowl style that I will install this weekend so I can see what the fuel is doing. The fuel pump looks to be new but I am not sure.

[Tinker]

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Lot of carb guys here. If you have another carb try it. or rebuild it.


Something to try, two guys. When it starts to fail take a bottle and feed the carb/intake with fuel (air cleaner off of course). If it runs then think fuel.


Best to have a squirt bottle not a can of fuel. Keep a fire extinguisher close. yikes

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Lot of carb guys here. If you have another carb try it. or rebuild it.


Something to try, two guys. When it starts to fail take a bottle and feed the carb/intake with fuel (air cleaner off of course). If it runs then think fuel.


Best to have a squirt bottle not a can of fuel. Keep a fire extinguisher close. yikes

Thank you. I will give it a try a little later in the morning. A little too early to go revving up the engine now.

[Tinker]

Ya or next week. We all have things to do!

Might be a line leak, pump, carb, but that little test will help to narrow it down at least to fuel. You can make a squirt bottle with a plastic coke bottle and drilling a little hole in the cap for a one time use (don't keep something like that in the shop if a little kid sees it and thinks its coke, throw it away)


Be careful though, fuel and fire .


Best of luck!


.

[Tony, NY]

Check that the fuel cell is vented. Loosen gas cap and run the engine.

[Terry,OH]

If you idle the car for a while and turn it off, remove air cleaner and view down the carb. turn throttle linkage and you should see two strong streams of gas squirting down the center of the carb. If not then rebuild carb.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

If you idle the car for a while and turn it off, remove air cleaner and view down the carb. turn throttle linkage and you should see two strong streams of gas squirting down the center of the carb. If not then rebuild carb.

Terry,

I agree 100% with you as a place to check first and only wonder why it took so long for someone to post it.

Charlie Stephens

[Gumpy]

This is definitely a fuel delivery problem I agree with Terry!

[Trailerparkhardware]

Thank you all for your advise I will check and get back with you.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

If you idle the car for a while and turn it off, remove air cleaner and view down the carb. turn throttle linkage and you should see two strong streams of gas squirting down the center of the carb. If not then rebuild carb.

Thank you I will check in the morning.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by Tony, NY

Check that the fuel cell is vented. Loosen gas cap and run the engine.

Thank you I will check.

[37 Cab]

A fuel pump that looks new does not make it a good one. Sounds like you have very low fuel pressure. Blockage or leak in line from tank bad pump... Need to check fuel pressure for 2-3 psi.

[JSeery]

I would also check the oil to be sure the fuel pump is not leaking fuel into the crankcase.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by Tony, NY

Check that the fuel cell is vented. Loosen gas cap and run the engine.

Hello,
It was not properly vented. I have fixed that but even with the gas cap off it did not change the issue.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

If you idle the car for a while and turn it off, remove air cleaner and view down the carb. turn throttle linkage and you should see two strong streams of gas squirting down the center of the carb. If not then rebuild carb.

Hello,
I did check as you suggested and the accelerator pump was not working. I rebuilt the carb tonight and will try it tomorrow. However after finding the accelerator pump was bad I started the car again and while I turned that throttle linkage and added some gas to the top of the carb from a small squirt bottle and the engine did not rev up. It did not change. It just sounds like it is missing. I have not checked the plugs yet that too will be tomorrow.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Lot of carb guys here. If you have another carb try it. or rebuild it.


Something to try, two guys. When it starts to fail take a bottle and feed the carb/intake with fuel (air cleaner off of course). If it runs then think fuel.


Best to have a squirt bottle not a can of fuel. Keep a fire extinguisher close. yikes

The accelerator pump on the carb was bad and I rebuilt it tonight. I will try it in the morning. I did try as you suggested and as it started to fail when accelerating I added some gas from a small squirt bottle. It did not run, or rev up it just sounds like it is missing.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by 37 Cab

A fuel pump that looks new does not make it a good one. Sounds like you have very low fuel pressure. Blockage or leak in line from tank bad pump... Need to check fuel pressure for 2-3 psi.

I am waiting on a gauge to check the fuel but I tried two things I ran a fuel line from a gas can and placed it higher then the carb. The car idled but would not accelerate or rev up. I also tried accelerating and pouring a little gas from a squirt bottle into the carb and it would not accelerate it just sounds like it is missing.

[Tinker]

Well.... it sounds like more fuel isn't the issue. Granted you could drown a carb but a drizzle wouldn't do that. You could still have fuel issues down the road, but if the butterflies are working and you bottle feed it, it should rev up. Takes more gas then you would think full throttle btw.

So... Have you done a compression check? Plug wires in the right order? Guess it could be a bad condenser at this point also... are these tests in the garage only?.


Start with the free/cheap checks. Plugwires, compression check, condenser.


Everything needs to work in concert. One thing bad and it makes everything "sound" bad. If everything is on it's so sweet.

I had an issue like this with my 38 after it was rebuild. In the garage it would purr at idle and rev. Once I drove it underload it fell on it's face. Turned out to be sticky valves.



.

[ford38v8]

You didn't say, but I assume the carburetor is a 94. Did you check the power valve? As the previous owner had fuel issues, he may have disabled the power valve, which would explain the starving during acceleration tries. Obtain a good functioning power valve (economizer valve), and try again. Also check the main jets to be clear, and of a single carb usable size, .050 or .051.

[tubman]

This may be basic, but I have to ask : Are you manually opening the throttle when feeding it gas from the bottle? More gas alone won't do it; you need additional air as well.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by tubman

This may be basic, but I have to ask : Are you manually opening the throttle when feeding it gas from the bottle? More gas alone won't do it; you need additional air as well.

Yes I am manually opening the throttle when feeding the gas and there is no change. It doesn't seem to matter if I add the gas or not It still runs the same.

[Trailerparkhardware]

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Originally Posted by ford38v8

You didn't say, but I assume the carburetor is a 94. Did you check the power valve? As the previous owner had fuel issues, he may have disabled the power valve, which would explain the starving during acceleration tries. Obtain a good functioning power valve (economizer valve), and try again. Also check the main jets to be clear, and of a single carb usable size, .050 or .051.

It is a 94. The accelerator pump was not working and so I rebuilt the carb tonight and did replace the power valve. I will put it back on the car later today. Fingers crossed.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Well.... it sounds like more fuel isn't the issue. Granted you could drown a carb but a drizzle wouldn't do that. You could still have fuel issues down the road, but if the butterflies are working and you bottle feed it, it should rev up. Takes more gas then you would think full throttle btw.

So... Have you done a compression check? Plug wires in the right order? Guess it could be a bad condenser at this point also... are these tests in the garage only?.


Start with the free/cheap checks. Plugwires, compression check, condenser.



Everything needs to work in concert. One thing bad and it makes everything "sound" bad. If everything is on it's so sweet.

I had an issue like this with my 38 after it was rebuild. In the garage it would purr at idle and rev. Once I drove it underload it fell on it's face. Turned out to be sticky valves.



.

I will start with the above next suggestions next. Thanks for your help.

[[email protected]]

Make sure you have a good blue spark. I had the same trouble exactly. Had nice yellow spark. Adding gas kept putting out the spark . New condenser and away it went. On another flatty that did the same thing had a muffler plugged with acorns and grain seeds. I cut the muffler off and wow away it went.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Make sure you have a good blue spark. I had the same trouble exactly. Had nice yellow spark. Adding gas kept putting out the spark . New condenser and away it went. On another flatty that did the same thing had a muffler plugged with acorns and grain seeds. I cut the muffler off and wow away it went.

Thank you I will check that.

[Ggmac]

I'm in west palm beach and willing to help if you get down this way .
Gary

[Trailerparkhardware]

An update!!!


I have found that the fuel pump is no good and was leaking fuel into the oil. I have ordered a new pump that will be here just before Thanksgiving. Thank you for all your input and help.

[Mart]

Glad you found what was causing the problem.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Trailerparkhardware

An update!!!


I have found that the fuel pump is no good and was leaking fuel into the oil. I have ordered a new pump that will be here just before Thanksgiving. Thank you for all your input and help.

That's why I suggest that as one of the first checks, fuel in the oil can thin it to the point that it can damage bearings.

[joe 1950]

not a common problem but possibly plugged exhaust you just never know what could be in there especially if it’s been sitting a while keep us posted

[4t7heaven]

Just in case the fuel pump does not correct the problem. Do you have a test meter? If not, go buy one. They are cheap and you simply must have one and learn how to use it.
Readings should be about: Battery 6.3V, ignition switch 6.37V, cold resistor 2.5 OHMS
to resistor 6.15V voltage after resistor 2.9V voltage at coil 2.5V
AMPS to resistor (not running) 4.5A (running) 3.09A
at coil at idle 3.02A / 3.3V
Voltage setting of voltage regulator (B terminal) running engine at 2000RPM should be 7.3-7.5V
Hope the new pump does the trick for you.
Deadhair

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by JSeery

That's why I suggest that as one of the first checks, fuel in the oil can thin it to the point that it can damage bearings.

Thank you. That is why I checked it. The pump arrived today (early) so tomorrow I will install and see where I am at. Thank you for your help and advise.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by joe 1950

not a common problem but possibly plugged exhaust you just never know what could be in there especially if it’s been sitting a while keep us posted

Plugged exhaust could be an issue. I will keep you posted.
Thank you.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by 4t7heaven

Just in case the fuel pump does not correct the problem. Do you have a test meter? If not, go buy one. They are cheap and you simply must have one and learn how to use it.
Readings should be about: Battery 6.3V, ignition switch 6.37V, cold resistor 2.5 OHMS
to resistor 6.15V voltage after resistor 2.9V voltage at coil 2.5V
AMPS to resistor (not running) 4.5A (running) 3.09A
at coil at idle 3.02A / 3.3V
Voltage setting of voltage regulator (B terminal) running engine at 2000RPM should be 7.3-7.5V
Hope the new pump does the trick for you.
Deadhair

Thank you for the great information. I do have a test meter. I will be installing the pump tomorrow and seeing where I am at. Even if it fixes the problem. I will still use the meter to test what you have shared. Thank you again for the help and information.

[JSeery]

Couple of additional comments on doing electrical test. Only keep the ignition turned on long enough to take a reading if the engine is not running. Also with the engine is not running the readings at the coil is different between when the points are open and when there closed. Current only flows through the ignition circuit when the points are closed.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Couple of additional comments on doing electrical test. Only keep the ignition turned on long enough to take a reading if the engine is not running. Also with the engine is not running the readings at the coil is different between when the points are open and when there closed. Current only flows through the ignition circuit when the points are closed.

Thank you for the additional information.

[Trailerparkhardware]

I installed the pump but found that it had pipe threaded fittings coming out of the fuel pump and they leak. NAPA was out of flared fittings so I am waiting them to come in to finish installing the pump. When I had the pump installed and running for the second before I saw the fuel leaking I noticed that Pipe the spark plug wires run through was arcing to the block. The wires are very brittle and cracking so new wires have been ordered. Good news the spark form the plug wire tube to the block was a strong blue spark. Moving forward.

[super flat]

Please change the oil now if you did not! fuel in the crankcase is death to bearings.

[tubman]

I don't know about a '41, but I think I should give you a "head's up" anyway. Most Fords used unique fittings on the gas line, not regular flared fittings. They used special compression fittings secured by something called a "Ford nut". While standard compression fittings used a female nut to compress over the sleeve, "Ford nuts" are male. If the flared fittings won't work for you, I think you are in for a lesson in unique Ford tube fittings. I know I got one when I first did the fuel pump on my '51. "Ford nuts" are not easy to find. Luckily for me, some fine gentleman on here had some and sent them gratis.

[Mart]

Napa should have the ford nuts.

[tubman]

You might be right "Mart". Mine didn't when I needed them back then. The last time, what I couldn't find was the fitting that screws into the 1/4" pipe thread that accepts the "Ford nut". I ended up using a fitting that accepted a regular female flare nut.

[Trailerparkhardware]

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Originally Posted by super flat

Please change the oil now if you did not! fuel in the crankcase is death to bearings.

As soon as I found the fuel in the oil I first pulled the pump and second changed the oil. Thanks for looking out.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by tubman

I don't know about a '41, but I think I should give you a "head's up" anyway. Most Fords used unique fittings on the gas line, not regular flared fittings. They used special compression fittings secured by something called a "Ford nut". While standard compression fittings used a female nut to compress over the sleeve, "Ford nuts" are male. If the flared fittings won't work for you, I think you are in for a lesson in unique Ford tube fittings. I know I got one when I first did the fuel pump on my '51. "Ford nuts" are not easy to find. Luckily for me, some fine gentleman on here had some and sent them gratis.

Thank you for the heads up.

[Ol' Ron]

Have you done a compression check of the cylinders yet??

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Have you done a compression check of the cylinders yet??

YES I was able to complete a compression test today. All cylinders are about 80lbs.. This seems very low. What should it be?

[JSeery]

How did you run the test? Throttle blocked all the way open and enough revolutions to get a good reading? Did you squirt a little oil in each cylinder and check them again?

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by JSeery

How did you run the test? Throttle blocked all the way open and enough revolutions to get a good reading? Did you squirt a little oil in each cylinder and check them again?

I pulled all the plugs. I did not open the throttle all the way or put oil in the cylinders. I cranked it 5 times to get the reading. I will do it again tomorrow adding a squirt of oil in each cylinder. Does the throttle need to b opened all the way?

[Mart]

Yeah, wide open.

[Ol' Ron]

Yes,WOT for the test. However, at 80'bs the engine should start and run quite well, if everything is working correctly.

[JSeery]

Be sure to check it dry and with the oil in the cylinders. You are wanting to see the difference between the two.

[tubman]

As to the 80 lbs compression, I drove my '51 with an engine with compression between 75 and 90 lbs for 30 years with no problems. It was refreshing to finally get a good engine installed, though.

[Trailerparkhardware]

I did the compression test. With the throttle wide open dry I got 80 in every cylinder. I then put oil in each cylinder throttle wide open and only 2 cylinders increased to 100 the rest stayed at 80. I have installed new plugs and wires. A new fuel pump and rebuilt the carb. Now when giving it throttle it will start to rev up but once it reaches 1/4 throttle it falls on its face and starts to miss. All the way fom 1/4 to full throttle there is no change in engine speed it just sounds like it wants to rev but it just keeps missing and holds there. I am guessing it is time to move on to the timing?

[rotorwrench]

The condenser in the ignition system is a key component to getting a good spark from the coil. If it doesn't work like it should the spark will be weak or be non existent and the points sets will suffer from arcing damage. It's generally easy to change and should be one of the first steps in troubleshooting the ignition system. Always do the easy things first in troubleshooting.

Timing of the distributor is fixed for outer body but spark timing can be adjusted internally if following the Ford instructions. The 41 was the last year for the divers helmet type distributor. If it starts and idle smoothly then it's likely not too far out of internal time. The points may be in rough shape if the condenser is bad. The centrifugal advance assembly may need lubrication to insure it moves correctly. The vacuum brake piston might be sticky in its bore or the leather tip may be deteriorated that allows the braking action. Cars that have been sitting a long time usually need a good inspection and lube the moving parts. If the points sets are still good and everything is still working correctly, your problem is likely somewhere else.

Sticking valves are a real problem on engines that set too long. I've had to pull the heads & intake to "work them" and get them to completely free up. Sometimes they will just have enough bind to let the engine idle but with any greater rpm, they don't have time to close all the way. A person can pull the intake and watch each valve move but you cant see if they stick unless you move each one by itself and see if it will stick on you. I've had to pull the springs and pull the valve & clean the guide & stem to get them to completely free up. Marvel Mystery Oil dropped down the carb and added to the fuel will free them up if the car is running but it may take some time.

The 94 carbs are simple but like any carb, all the passages have to be cleaned and checked to see if they are open. The surfaces have to be checked for warpage & corrected if they are. Your idle circuit seems to be open or it wouldn't idle at all. The accelerator circuit has to be clear and checked to see it squirt. The modern power valves don't fit the old castings very well but can be made to fit. This can be a sealing problem in that circuit. The high speed circuit through the jets and all the way to the venturis has to be clear and the atomizing air circuit has to be clear. If all this is checked and the carb is properly assembled then it will work.

[big job]

Originally Posted by Trailerparkhardware

I did the compression test. With the throttle wide open dry I got 80 in every cylinder. I then put oil in each cylinder throttle wide open and only 2 cylinders increased to 100 the rest stayed at 80. I have installed new plugs and wires. A new fuel pump and rebuilt the carb. Now when giving it throttle it will start to rev up but once it reaches 1/4 throttle it falls on its face and starts to miss. All the way fom 1/4 to full throttle there is no change in engine speed it just sounds like it wants to rev but it just keeps missing and holds there. I am guessing it is time to move on to the timing?

curious; when you give it full throttle and its dying. give it that 1/4 throttle
put your hand over the carb is it sucking good -it should, it should whip right
up if not carb gasket intake gasket possibly , points closed up or the modern new junk condensers which will throw your brain code bonkers. The missing
part, sounds like as compression rises plugs wires cap rotor points condenser
is maxed out; gotta look at that.

[Trailerparkhardware]

Final update for now. I changed the coil to an external coil and what a difference. Right from the first start up it started quicker almost on the first crank. The throttle response is good and even the idle is better. I took it for a drive and it seems to have good power and went through all the gears without trouble. Thank you everyone for your input, and patience with me. You were all a big help.
Thomas

[JayChicago]

Originally Posted by Trailerparkhardware

I changed the coil to an external coil and what a difference.
Thomas

Thanks for posting your follow-up. That's really helpful for newbies like me.

But before I assume your symptoms were due to a bad coil, I have to ask:
Did you replace the condenser at this time?
If you re-used the existing condenser, any sign that it had been loose or not grounded?

[Trailerparkhardware]

Originally Posted by JayChicago

Thanks for posting your follow-up. That's really helpful for newbies like me.

But before I assume your symptoms were due to a bad coil, I have to ask:
Did you replace the condenser at this time?
If you re-used the existing condenser, any sign that it had been loose or not grounded?

I too am new at flatheads and engine work in general. My skill set is in painting and body repair. I have really enjoyed this challenge and I am very thankful for all of the help and support I have received here. That being said, to answer your question, I did replace the condenser with the new coil. It was the condenser that came with the kit. It was not loose or losing ground as far as I could tell However I had tried changing the condenser twice before because of what I have read about the quality of some parts nowadays and it did not make much of a difference. I think with my engine I had a lot of thing working against me. The fuel pump was bad and was putting fuel into my oil. The carb needed a rebuild, the plug wires were cracked and arcing to the block and I believe the coil may have had an issue too. Now I have driven it a few times and it seems to have good power and runs well but the last time I went to turn into my shop all of the wiring from the regulator to the battery and such burned up. I don't know if the wiring has been bad all along (because it was all rapped up in plastic loom) or with driving it something moved and grounded out, or if a wire got pinched when I made the turn into the shop. None of the wire is left to trace but that gives me the opportunity to rewire the car and know that it is all good.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Trailerparkhardware

Final update for now. I changed the coil to an external coil and what a difference. Right from the first start up it started quicker almost on the first crank. The throttle response is good and even the idle is better. I took it for a drive and it seems to have good power and went through all the gears without trouble. Thank you everyone for your input, and patience with me. You were all a big help.
Thomas

OK, additional questions on the coil. Do you know what the ohms value between the two terminals is? It should be somewhere around 1.5 for most 6v coils. Now is the (-) terminal connected to the ignition switch and the (+) terminal to the distributor? That is the correct connections for a (+) ground vehicle. It will run with the wiring reversed, but the coil output is reduced. And finally, if it is a 1.5 ohm coil is the ballast resistor by-passed? A 1.5 ohm coil does not use a ballast resistor in a 6v application.

[grumppyoldman]

I'm wondering why you didn't get an increase in compression readings on all cyl's. did you put the oil in all cyl's. before test, or did you add oil and test indivudialy? You could have stuck valves, stuck rings or burnt valves. it takes about a full table spoon of oil added just before you test. and all cyl's should show an increase in compression. Al

[Tinker]

Pull the heads and look at the valves and cylinders. Head gaskets is around 45$. If you know paint then mechanics is easy right?

We are all are arm chairing... What do you think?


.