T-5 5 speed trans VS Mitchell overdrive

[coatings03]

Hi ford barners,
Just a question relating to higher speed touring at 55 mph. For my application which in your opinion would work better. My speedster is modified with 2 stromberg 81; lake style headers and a model B distributor.

Thank you,
Jim m

[ryanheacox]

My opinion is go for the Mitchell. You won't have to cut the center cross member to install it or screw around with changing to an open drive shaft.

[denis4x4]

Certainly a lot less work to go with the Mitchell.

[kenparker]

I have never installed on of he T-5's. Did have to take one out couple years ago. But I have built and installed lots of the F150's. And installed two mitchells - one two months ago.


There is no comparasion in the complication of installing the T-5 and F150 compared to th Mitchell. Mitchell can be installe3d by one person in half a day. The others take two days or more by oneself.



After building f150's for 20 years I love my mitchell in the woody. The main difference is the lack of the syncro, but one gets used to that.

[jhowes]

How about cost???? How do the three compare?? Jack

[mike657894]

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t5. I dont have either. but I dont see overdrives for sale(do you have access to a cheap one or is money no object here?). t5s are cheap. they are strong, at least for this application. the rebuild parts are cheap. you dont have to engage a t5's overdrive. And shifting will be silent always not just when you get it just right. If you are spending money and planning on going faster what are your total costs involved for each?




I try to get everyone to drive my car. I see their face twist and the joy go out of their eyes when I try to explain double clutching. Those who have made it past that part and drove the car loved it. But it takes a more experienced individual to take on double clutching an antique car. They may just fear breaking it. Though I don't think they could its pretty tough.

[mike657894]

Originally Posted by kenparker

I have never installed on of he T-5's. Did have to take one out couple years ago. But I have built and installed lots of the F150's. And installed two mitchells - one two months ago.


There is no comparasion in the complication of installing the T-5 and F150 compared to th Mitchell. Mitchell can be installe3d by one person in half a day. The others take two days or more by oneself.



After building f150's for 20 years I love my mitchell in the woody. The main difference is the lack of the syncro, but one gets used to that.

ken what is the type/model of f150 trans(zf?) Or what year range and engine? Where are the conversion plates available?

[AL in NY]

mike657894- the F150 4 speed OD transmission came in the 84-87 Ford F150 2 wheel drive truck. The bell housing and rear plate for the conversion can be purchased from Mac's Speed Shop in New Zealand. Do an F150 search on this forum and you'll find all the information about the install.

[mike657894]

I might have grossly underestimated the costs of a 5 speed conversion. here is a thread with more trans swap info. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...5594&showall=1

[Railcarmover]

The mitchell is technically a 2 speed transmission one speed direct rear axle ratio,the other a 26% reduction in ratio.With a hopped up engine it's a great improvement,from 5 to 50 mph in one synchronized shift,2nd low to 2nd high.You can also just drive in high range if you want,my engine has about double stock power and pulls high range out of the hole no problem.If you want to putt around like a stock A leave it in low.

Want a T5? Buy a f150 or an S 10, spur gear transmission is a model a..

[duke36]

The Mitchell gives 6 speeds forward, though the F150 (I have both) is smooth shifting especially with lightened flywheel, V8 clutch, etc. For a speedster, possibly the F150 synchro would be faster shifting.

[Jim Brierley]

I prefer the T-5, very smooth and easy shifting, great ratios are available. The Mitchell is nice, and easier to install. The F-150 is not for me, odd gear ratio split. Expenses??? Do your research. I have a T-5 in my Vicky, and had a Ryan in my old tudor. The Ryan is very similar to the Mitchell.

[kenparker]

Mike 45678. Al answered most of yur questioons I think. There is more to it than just changing the bell housing and adding an adaptor plate. Bell housing are available from Macs or use a AA bell housing - as I did. The input shaft and the front bearing reatainer must be addresssed. Rear adaptor plate. Shift stick converted. Shorten the drive shaft, Radias rods and Torque tube. All this critical to within a fwe thousandsds of the inch.


I still do some of this work. Juts not kits.


The 26% came rom behind the Ford 302. The 37% came from behind the 6 cyl and the Ford 351. There is also a 41%, but I did not and will not use it - to high OD %

[Ranchero50]

What do you have to do to the T5 since the OD gear are on the outside of the case.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Good afternoon all...I have one question. When considering re-sale value of our cars...Does one or the other of the overdrive solutions give a better resale value? I know that the Bone Stock folks won't normally purchase them but how about the rest of us to tend to have some modifications on our cars? Ernie in Arizona

[gary678*]

I have a 1930 A with a T-5 , high compression police head (B), and a 3.78 rear end. It shifts beautifully, at 55 MPH RPM's are at 1800, gas mileage 20 MPG+, and you only have to deal with one shift lever. I love it and never had one problem! I know others that have Mitchells; they are well engineered and owners love them. I think that both are an excellent upgrade; you cannot go wrong with either one.

[gary678*]

In response to Ernie Vitucci's question about resale value I was only interested in buying an A with a T-5; so resale value depends on what the buyer is looking for.

[Dave in MN]

I have experience with the Mitchell and the T-5.

I have a Mitchell in my '29 Phaeton and have driven it over 95,000 miles. No issues and very durable. I like the splitter and have become proficient in shifting without grinding gears. I would do it again.

I installed a T-5 in a recent build and the transmission works good but it caused issues with the brakes. I tried to set the car up with Ted's latest floater kit and failed. The reason, was that the T-5 kit replacement service brake cross shaft is moved back a few inches from the stock location. The original location of the cross shaft is at the u-joint coupling centerline of movement. Having the cross shaft moved back introduces some movement in the brake rods when the rear of the car raises or lowers when going over road bumps. Ted's Floater kits rely heavily on proper brake rod length adjustment when setting up and operation. This varying geometry in the brake rods, when going over a good sized bump, would apply the brakes when the car body was on rebound. I tried multiple times to adjust and had some Club members with much more experience then I had with floater kits help and we all failed. I switched over to hydraulic brakes to solve the problem.

IMO: The T-5 is still the best option that I am familiar with for the car I installed it in based on how I plan to use it. I have a "B" engine in this car that produces about 80 hp and wanted the extra strength of the T-5 transmission and wanted a synchronized gear system that is friendly to an inexperienced driver (wife).

The time spent installing a T-5 kit is 4 times the work of installing a Mitchell and for me, after installing the hydraulic brakes, about $2,000.00 more in cost.
Good Day!

[CarlG]

I have not had or even driven the T5 or a Mitchell. I do have the F150 Tremec transmission. Mine was a complete bolt in kit with no modifications to the vehicle. Fairly easy install. Essentially gives me the same gears as a stock Model A + 26% OD and all synchronized gears.

[Doug in Maryland]

Has anyone here put a T5 in an AA or know of anyone who has? There is more room behind the stock transmission, 4-speed or 3-speed, but I don't know if it would be enough room to not have to fabricate an open drive shaft conversion as you might with an A. I seem to remember that Mitchell made an overdrive for the bevel gear rear axle AA's but I haven't heard much about that lately.

[JRN1967]

With some advice from Ken and Al, I just finished my F150 conversion.

Doing most of the work myself, it cost just over $1,200 total.

[Anteek29]

JRN1967: Thanks for those great photos...impressive conversion!

[kenparker]

Congrats on the DIY.

[LeroyM]

Go with the T5, no experience with the Mitchell but the T5 shifts smooth as butter, put a V8 in front of it and a Ford 9 inch rear out back and you got a winning combo that will give no trouble and keep up with traffic at low rpm's and give good gas mileage to. Hard to beat.


I've played the model A engine and model B engine with a 39 transmission game and in the end I wish I had went with the combo I wound up with. Would have saved lots of time, headaches and money along the way.

[Davew]

I have a T5 behind a stock engine model A and really like it. Would do it again. I live in a hilly area and the 5 speeds are great. May have to use 4th on strong headwinds. Friend has a mitchell and thinks he should have gone this way. I bought a short throw shifter with a model A shift lever welded to it. Makes shifting a breeze and looks like it belongs.

[john in illinois]

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Originally Posted by JRN1967

With some advice from Ken and Al, I just finished my F150 conversion.

Doing most of the work myself, it cost just over $1,200 total.

You will love it.

John

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'd be happy with an overdrive also, and intended to install one, but have decided to go with the 3.27 ring and pinion instead. It will look totally stock and give more speed, but I mainly want to lower the engine RPM at the 45 to 50 that I drive.

[Railcarmover]

Originally Posted by LeroyM

Go with the T5, no experience with the Mitchell but the T5 shifts smooth as butter, put a V8 in front of it and a Ford 9 inch rear out back and you got a winning combo that will give no trouble and keep up with traffic at low rpm's and give good gas mileage to. Hard to beat.


I've played the model A engine and model B engine with a 39 transmission game and in the end I wish I had went with the combo I wound up with. Would have saved lots of time, headaches and money along the way.

If you pumped up the A or B and stuck a mitchell behind it you might have found what you were looking for,especially with a '39 trans..6 synchro gears final drive at 2.90 and 80 horse or so? it aint a V8,but it will pull your hat off..and its still a model a ..

[kenparker]

Railcarmover. What do you do to a Model A engine to squeeze "80 horse" out of it besides add a overhead valve system. 65 to 70Hp easy, but 80? whats the secret? ken

[Railcarmover]

http://www.modelaparts.net/dynosheets.htm/lionstk.htm

Modified flathead engines can achieve over 80 horse.But a good rule of thumb is double power of a stock A.My point in the thread isn't to argue about how much an engine puts out on a dyno,its the driveability of a modified flathead A engine with 6 synchronized forward speed and a final drive ratio of 2.9 to 1.

[Railcarmover]

A better question is why would you put the money in a fully synchronized overdrive transmission and stay at 40 horsepower? you've already passed the purist line,why not up the power some? your transmission can definitely handle it.You do the modification in part for the overdrive,you want more speed.In my opinion a T5 install is just as bad as a 350 chevy install,it kills the model a experience. With a modified flat head and a mitchell behind an A trans you have a choice,you can drive it like a stock A.

[kenparker]

Railcar, I am not wanting to argue anybody's point. I do not drive a stock car any more. Just curious as to how you got your 80 hp. My 31 coupe with a F150 tranny is about 55hp and the other , Woody, is somewhere in the 60 to 65 range with a stock trans and a Mitchell 26%. I would like to put more hp in the woody

[Railcarmover]

Ok,sounds good. Where are you at with the woody?.Piriano gained air flow by running bigger valves,I run a 'C' grind (late B)cam with .319 measured lift is about .040 actual lift increase over the stock A cam with stock valves and sleeved to stock cylinders.Then I basically built around it with maximum air flow in mind. 6 to 1 winfield re pop aluminum head,you can go up to 7 to 1,anything past that and you start losing air flow..the rest? model a engine airflow rate is around 160 CFM,a single stromberg 97 or Holley 94 match it almost dead on @170 CFM,dual carbs are sexy but you have overfuel issues to contend with, 340 CFM rate from two carbs doesnt stuff through 160 CFM engine very well.
Fuel and compression are your biggest bang for the buck,I used a Red's 4 into 2 header and a flow master extractor for exhaust,once again its air flow,what goes in must come out. Model B distributor and bosch blue coil,run 12 v system. Bronze timing gear and fixed cam plunger for reliability.

Horsepower? who knows,but the result is amazing over a stock engine. Greater efficiency through matched air flow and compression increase means it runs cooler with better fuel economy than a stock engine.Dont get me wrong,I like a stock model a,and will build one..but here in suburban CA you basically cant drive one without the safety of a convoy,the fools will eat you alive if you run solo.

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by kenparker

Railcar, I am not wanting to argue anybody's point. I do not drive a stock car any more. Just curious as to how you got your 80 hp. My 31 coupe with a F150 tranny is about 55hp and the other , Woody, is somewhere in the 60 to 65 range with a stock trans and a Mitchell 26%. I would like to put more hp in the woody

Ken, You ask how to produce 80 HP without an overhead valve head. 80 HP is my goal for a touring car I am building up. I am currently dyno breaking in a B block that has full oil pressure and is equipped to produce in excess of 80 HP.

Build Spec: Lion Speed Head III that is milled .074", intake valve pockets are relieved (see photo below), the cylinder to head clearance is .030" and all sharp edges in the combustion chamber have been rounded with emery cloth to eliminate any hot spots.
Camshaft is a Stipe IB 340 with bronze/steel gear set from Dan McEachern, solid stop on the cam plunger yet maintains the stock plunger spring, oil piped to spray the cam gear through a #58 drill size orifice. Stipe high capacity oil pump with multiple pressure relief valves to accurately control the oil pressure. Cold oil pressure: Idle 35 psi, 2800 rpm: 55 psi. Warm oil pressure: Idle 19 psi, 2800 rpm 50 psi. Oil passages from the oil galley to the mains increased in diameter and other passages restricted per Jim Brierly's book: 4- bangers! And me!
Crankshaft modified for full oil to mains and rods, thrust moved from rear main to front journal using radial bearing sets. (see photo below) Small block Chevy rear main seal.
Valves are 1.530" straight stem, one pc. guides, rotators on the exhaust valve only and .125" spacers (thick washers) between the top of the springs and the roof of the valve chamber.
No porting of the block. Cast iron exhaust header (Snyder's)
Scalded Dog Intake with Single Stromberg 97, currently set up with standard jets and power valve.

I only have about 45 minutes on this engine and it is creating 145 ftlb of torque at 2800 rpm. This equals 77+ HP. Corrected HP = 81.6
I will be adding another 97 carb when a dual downdraft manifold and a FSI distributor arrive next week. From past experience, on previous engines, I expect to increase the output to about 86 HP with these changes at 2800 rpm. Update: FSI distributor added 1.5 HP.
The torque is not dropping off much up to 3200 rpm but I don't care what it makes at that point because I am building this engine for a touring car and won't be operating in that range. I will make a couple dyno pulls up to 3200 rpm next week just to see what it will do and expect it will produce in excess of 90 HP.
You can produce the same power or more with an A block with proper porting, larger valves and the equipment I describe above.

I guess we are a bit off track from the T-5 topic of this thread so to bring it back in the right direction, this engine will be coupled to an open drive shaft T-5 transmission in a '31 S/W Town Sedan.
I am having fun in my shop here in Minnesota!
Good Day!

[kenparker]

I will respond to the HP issue later. For now I want to clarify something. There ate two "Ken's" here in north Texas. Ken Parker, me, used to buid F150 OD kits. The other "Ken" is Ken Davis. He build the awesome A/C kits.

[Dave in MN]

Sorry Ken. I made the same AC mistake once before when I replied to one of your posts. I took the AC reference out of my previous post. Thanks for correcting me.
Dave

[Railcarmover]

Nice work Dave.Im a firm believer in babbit and gravity oil provided you don't spin the engine too hard.keep it under 3500 and your fine with the original lower end.The torque curve of a modified flathead limits you by nature,I built in some insurance using stock valve springs to hold mine back.Dave to his credit built a lower end to withstand just about anything you can throw at it,and kept a high reliability factor by limiting the valve size and running a flathead.What amazes me is you can basically double the output of the engine (in Daves case,triple) without shortening the engine life..damn few engines you can do that with..

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by Dave in MN

Camshaft is a Stipe IB 340 with bronze/steel gear set from Dan McEachern, solid stop on the cam plunger yet maintains the stock plunger spring, oil piped to spray the cam gear through a #58 drill size orfice.

Why do you need a solid stop for the cam plunger? What material did you use to make it? Why do you need to spray the cam gear with all the oil spraying around in there?

[Railcarmover]

I'm also a firm believer in a modified flathead as opposed to an OHV helped a friend set one up,got it turned and running good,he was grinning from ear to ear,till I mentioned he spent 15k turning a model a into a pinto..my black eye healed

[Pete]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

Why do you need a solid stop for the cam plunger? What material did you use to make it? Why do you need to spray the cam gear with all the oil spraying around in there?

1- To positively control cam walk. (it is a race thing)

2- 3/4-16 socket head cap screw with jam nut. Screw surface that contacts cam is bronze coated.

2- To lube the gears better. You can never get too much oil there. ( it is a engine longevity thing)

[Railcarmover]

The controlled orifice to the timing gear is necessary in a fully pressurized engine,you dont get the waterfall effect of a gravity fed system,you have to provide a controlled volume of oil to keep the gear lubricated.
Without cross drilling the b crank and pressurizing the rod bearings,basically using the ford system,you dont have to provide constant pressure oil to the timing gear.Dipper rods starve around 4k,they cant pick up the oil at that speed.Modified flathead doesnt turn that high,torque peaks at 2700 or so.Dave proved his lower end beyond a doubt..

[Pete]

"Dipper rods starve around 4k,they cant pick up the oil at that speed."

They could pick up the oil if there was oil to pickup. Depending on the design of the system, the dipper will cut a groove in the oil when it picks up oil on each rotation. As the rpm increases, the time for the oil to flow back in the cut groove under gravity, becomes less.
When the rpm gets to the point where the oil can no longer refill the groove, the rod will fail due to lack of oil.

[Railcarmover]

It takes some work to get a modified flathead capable of spinning 4k..and I give the racers their due,chasing that demon is far further than i want to go,I don't want to be king of the salt,just want to compete with the Kias at a few stoplights,prove a 90 year old design is still relevant..

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

It takes some work to get a modified flathead capable of spinning 4k..and I give the racers their due,chasing that demon is far further than i want to go,I don't want to be king of the salt,just want to compete with the Kias at a few stoplights,prove a 90 year old design is still relevant..

The problem is, after you stomp a few Kia's, you get greedy and want to stomp anything that shows up.
It doesn't take much more work to go from 4K to 6K but it does take a fat wallet.

[Railcarmover]

Love the true racers,their kids eat the putty out the windows while daddy is trying to gain an inch..its never fast enough,you just run out of money and time. I admire and respect those guys,without their innovation we'd still be running 40 horses and two doors..

[Dave in MN]

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Originally Posted by denniskliesen

Why do you need a solid stop for the cam plunger? What material did you use to make it? Why do you need to spray the cam gear with all the oil spraying around in there?

Soild cam plunger stop: The high capacity oil pump, a tight oil pump drive gear, fuel pump, varying lifter loads or a tight distributor can all cause the cam to move forward. The solid stop is a 1/4" NF bolt installed in the center of the cam plunger boss in the front timing cover fixed with an external lock nut. This bolt passes through the center of a stock plunger spring. The plunger spring still applies pressure but the stop bolt limits the movement to whatever I set the clearance to, about .003". There are other methods of doing the same thing. My solution is an easy and low-tech one.

Oil to the cam gear: In my last performance build, I had an adjustable timing gear failure. The failure was likely from a front journal ground .0015" off center resulting in varying timing gear clearances. The oil passage from the galley was reduced to a #50 drill size and it directed the oil to the side of the gear rather than directly to the teeth... so maybe lack of oil was a problem. I think both issues contributed to the timing gear failure. I had the crankshaft grinder correct the off center gear issue and whether the direct oil spray is necessary or not, I have the oil pump capacity so I dedicated some directly to the gear. This engine is a touring engine, not a racer. Finishing the road trip without a trip stopping break down is the goal. To me, the worst finish to a road trip is an accident, the next is a ride home on a flatbed. Failure is not an option!
Good Day!

[Railcarmover]

I run the same thrust button setup in mine,spring pressure with a few thousandths stop.I couldn't find a mechanical reason why the cam would thrust,the timing gear back lashed perfectly,the cam bores and bearings true,distributor drive gear and oil pump checked..new bronze gear and crank gear. My conclusion was the same,added load forced the cam to overcome the spring pressure.You have to kill the thrust,valve timing will alter during the thrust due to the helical cut gears.
Full pressure on a touring engine is most you can do,no doubt.Model A gravity feed/dipper system works well for a modified engine driven on the street,it doesnt give the comfort of an oil pressure gauge showing 25psi..thats priceless.