What is this noise?

[Old Henry]

Here's the noise that started last week on our Nevadaho Road Trip. What do you think it is? (12 second video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWo9x...ature=youtu.be

[PeteVS]

Have you used a stethoscope? Or, a broom handle? (One end on the car where you think the noise is coming from and hold your ear to the SIDE of the broom handle.)

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by PeteVS

Have you used a stethoscope? Or, a broom handle? (One end on the car where you think the noise is coming from and hold your ear to the SIDE of the broom handle.)

I haven't done that yet and maybe I will. I don't know how I would record that for others to hear. I don't hear anything when the car is in gear running. As in the video, I can only hear the noise when the wheels are turning but not connected to the engine. As far as location and source of the noise, it is definitely in the rear end - more likely in the differential than the axle. Any ideas?

[f1builder]

broken axle spline?

[Ralph Moore]

Sounds like ring and pinion, if I understand what you did was shut the engine off and push in the clutch. Do you only hear this while decelerating going down the road?

[Mart]

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Sounds serious.
I can't say what it is, but I think I can say this.

It appears to be at wheel speed. If you watch the torque tube, you can see where the light is shining through the left wheel, and and you can see the rotation of the wheel in the light. The noise seems to match the speed of the light on the torque tube.

This would tend to rule out anything associated with the torque tube or driveshaft, for example the noise when the pin comes adrift and rubs on the torque tube, something in the pinion bearing or the driveshaft intermediate or front bearing or the UJ or trans bearings.

That's quite a few things ruled out.

So what's left.

Wheel bearings, ring gear tooth damage. Ring gear bolt backed out?? (sorta guessing here) Diff side bearings

I'd say a strip down is inevitable.

If you didn't want to pull the whole rearend you could remove the left shackle and just remove the left axle bell, and the ring gear and shafts can all be removed.

I can't think what it could be that would be fixable without some sort of a teardown.

Have you drained the oil and checked for metallic particles in the oil?

Have you held the right wheel and turned the left and held the left and turned the right?

Or repeat the test like in the video but with each wheel locked in turn.

Might not show anything, but you never know, it might show something.

Can't help thinking, though, no matter what you find, a stripdown will be needed.

Mart.

[Mart]

I just had another look - if the light is shining through the 4 windows in the wheel, it is approximating driveshaft revs, so it could indeed be driveshaft related.

Still pointing towards a teardown, though, I think.

Mart.

[Alaska Jim]

sounds like a chipped tooth on either the ring or pinion gear. had a chipped tooth on a pinion gear once that sounded similar. I still to this day don't know how that pinon tooth got chipped.-----Jim

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Ralph Moore

Sounds like ring and pinion, if I understand what you did was shut the engine off and push in the clutch. Do you only hear this while decelerating going down the road?

There is some sound decelerating but mostly with clutch in or in neutral.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mart

Sounds serious.
I can't say what it is, but I think I can say this.

It appears to be at wheel speed. If you watch the torque tube, you can see where the light is shining through the left wheel, and and you can see the rotation of the wheel in the light. The noise seems to match the speed of the light on the torque tube.Can't help thinking, though, no matter what you find, a stripdown will be needed.

Mart.

That is extremely obsevant. However, the flash on the torque tube is through the gaps in the wheel which is four flashes per turn of the wheel. So, that's more the drive shaft speed incriminating something at the back end of the drive shaft or pinion part of the differential. (Oops. Just saw your next post that concluded the same.)

No question - I'm going to have to take something apart. Just trying to narrow down where to start - back end of torque tube or differential. Stethoscope is probably next. (I've usually used a long screw driver but I like the idea of the real thing.)



Available from Autozone: http://www.autozone.com/autozone/acc...fier=70131_0_0_

[Henry/Kokomo]

Sounds can really travel and fool you. I agree it's at driveshaft speed. Might get lucky and it be the U-joint (hope so). Personally, I can't see any way to prevent some serious disassembly.

[Old Henry]

Couldn't wait till tomorrow to buy a stethoscope. Got my long screwdriver out and used as a stethoscope. Sound is definitely inside of the differential. From the sound and speed and frequency of it I'm thinking it's something to do with the pinion gear. It's not regular enough to be a broken tooth. It's more random like something else broken loose. I guess it's time to tear it apart and see. May try Mart's idea of starting with just removing the left bell and see what I can see and maybe replace without removing the entire axle. Thanks for that idea. I'm still open to any others as well.

[Don]

Think I would remove the brake drums to start with and try the noise run again

[41ford1]

With all you've done and your posted findings. I'm thinking a pinion bearing failed. Noisy running with no or low load and gets quieter loaded leads me to believe that. At any rate it's going to be a project. I'm interested in what you find.

[Old Henry]

Won't even start on it until after December 10th when we have our big family Christmas party in The G'Raj Mahal (http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=175104). Can't do that if Old Henry is stuck in there without any back wheels or axle. So, I'll just keep driving it until then - but no further than I'd want to tow him home if he really broke down.
Wish me luck.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 41ford1

With all you've done and your posted findings. I'm thinking a pinion bearing failed. . . . I'm interested in what you find.

That's what I'm thinking too. Sure rather it be that than the pinion or ring gears. That pair costs $450.00 new.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 41ford1

. . . it's going to be a project.

Fortunately, I have Chuck up the street that just rebuilt his rear end on his '47 after blowing it out on our Death Valley trip last February. (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62705) I'll be pickin' his brain the whole way.

[BILL WZOREK]

Old Henry:

Just out of curiosity have you pulled the plug and check the grease level,
I know it is like closing the "BARN" door after the horse is out,but do I remember you taking your car to a Professional lube & oil change center.
Not Ha Ha funny but still funny that 2 of you from the same area have had some type of rearend problem.

[PeteVS]

I saw somewhere that a problem with the Ford rears was that the pin in the driveshaft coupling would break and rattle around. The recommended fix was to drill a hole in the torque tube at a certain location, fish out the offending pin halves and put a pipe plug in the hole.

[jimTN]

Pull the plugs on the center housing, look for metal in the grease, shine a light in there and look around. Sort of sounds like a loose bolt that has run out and rubbing the housing to me.

[G.M.]

4 clicks per revolution sounds like it is in front of the rear. Indicates a 3:78 rear and sounds like the pin in the shaft coupling pin. I have seen a number of these pins come loose. They slide out as the drive shaft turns and hit the torque tube. The pin is to long to drop out. I doubt this can be repaired by drilling a hole in the tube as someone mentioned. A peice of heater hose is good for listening. G.M.

[Mart]

Pulling just the one side was a suggestion I made when I thought it was in the rear, rather than the driveshaft area. On balance you'd probably do better to pull the whole rear and give it a thorough checkover considering the long journeys you like to make.

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by PeteVS

I saw somewhere that a problem with the Ford rears was that the pin in the driveshaft coupling would break and rattle around.

Originally Posted by G.M.

4 clicks per revolution sounds like it is in front of the rear. Indicates a 3:78 rear and sounds like the pin in the shaft coupling pin. I have seen a number of these pins come loose. They slide out as the drive shaft turns and hit the torque tube. The pin is too long to drop out. G.M.

I already went over a year with that danged pin rubbing on the inside of the torque tube before it finally wore down enough to drop out. Most annoying noise. So, it's not that.

As I said earlier, my "stethoscope" indicated it is inside of the differential at the same frequency as the drive shaft so most likely a pinion gear bearing.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

Old Henry:

Just out of curiosity have you pulled the plug and check the grease level,
I know it is like closing the "BARN" door after the horse is out,but do I remember you taking your car to a Professional lube & oil change center.
Not Ha Ha funny but still funny that 2 of you from the same area have had some type of rearend problem.

Originally Posted by jimTN

Pull the plugs on the center housing, look for metal in the grease, shine a light in there and look around. Sort of sounds like a loose bolt that has run out and rubbing the housing to me.

Had the differential oil checked just before our trip and it was full. Haven't pulled the plugs yet to check since. May do that today just out of curiosity.

Must be something in the water on our street that Chuck and I both have had rear end problems this year.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mart

Pulling just the one side was a suggestion I made when I thought it was in the rear, rather than the driveshaft area. On balance you'd probably do better to pull the whole rear and give it a thorough checkover considering the long journeys you like to make.

Mart.

Yeah. I had pretty much concluded the same thing after reading a recent thread about it here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89668

[Old Henry]

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Through the Stethoscope: Here's a video of the previous test hearing the internal sounds through the stethoscope I bought today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1P1B...ature=youtu.be

Whadaya think?

Here's a picture of the liquid gold I drained out of the differential - clear sign of metal wear inside. (That oil was just new before our trip.) You can really see the sparklies on the plug.

[PeteVS]

What does it do in reverse?? (There might be answer to my question up above, but...)

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by PeteVS

What does it do in reverse?? (There might be answer to my question up above, but...)

Reverse is no different.

[Ole Don]

My hat is off to you sir for driving a 65 year old car regularly. Things happen in old cars. This is one of those things. Fix it once, fix it right. It will be good for the rest of your time.

[sonny]

I'm not sure if that rear has "spider gears" or not but I had the exact same noise come out of a Dodge rear. It was the shaft that runs through the spider gears. The keeper pin broke and the shaft would move back and forth, but to long to fall out. Just saying.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by sonny

I'm not sure if that rear has "spider gears" or not but I had the exact same noise come out of a Dodge rear. It was the shaft that runs through the spider gears. The keeper pin broke and the shaft would move back and forth, but to long to fall out. Just saying.

I do have spider gears and will certainly check those when we get it apart. Thanks for the tip.

[Mart]

The early ford rear does not tend to suffer from that sort of pin drifting out problem because it has 4 pinions on a forged cross shaped pin thing.

Don't rule anything out though.

Mart.

[Henry/Kokomo]

Sonny - I think spider gears are a requirement for most, if not all, differential gear set-ups. FWIW

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Henry/Kokomo

Sonny - I think spider gears are a requirement for most, if not all, differential gear set-ups. FWIW

Even my walk behind self propelled mower has them. If it's a differential rather than solid axle (like some ATV's) it's got spider gears.

[G.M.]

Run a Magnet through the oil. If it's metalic the magnet will remove the particals. G.M.

[Tim Brown]

Take it to Chucks up the street and work on it there.

[sonny]

Henrykokomo, I'm familiar with the workings of a differential I used to set up rear ends for racing. I asked about the spiders because I have also locked up rears without spiders. FWIW

[Mart]

All "open" diffs have spider gears, Sonny was referring to a non Ford type diff having the pin that the spiders run on come loose and start to come out, hence making a noise. These diffs have two spiders and a single pin. Early Ford diffs have spiders, but 4 of 'em on a cross shaped pin forging. Hence in a ford diff the problem of the pin coming adrift cannot happen.

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by G.M.

Run a Magnet through the oil. If it's metalic the magnet will remove the particals. G.M.

I did run the magnet through the oil. I didn't think it would pick up anything because I thought all of the shiny specks were brass colored but I couldn't think of what in the banjo would be that color. Well, turned out all of the shiny specks that clung to the magnet were silver colored steel - they only looked gold because of the color of the oil. So, definitely have something steel wearing out in there. Hope to find out what tonight.

[ford38v8]

Sonny, please don't confuse us with Dodge knowledge. We're working overtime here just to keep up with our Ford stuff!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Tim Brown

Take it to Chucks up the street and work on it there.

Funny you should suggest that. It's exactly what Chuck suggested and I agreed to until today when I figured out how to roll Old Henry out of G'Raj Mahal onto the driveway for our family gathering on Dec. 10th if he hasn't got his back wheels back on yet - just lift his back end up with the floor jack and wheel him out. Just did it and it worked fine. (Didn't roll quite as easy as on his wheels but I still got him out on my own - first I took some time to grease all the wheels on the floor jack to make it roll as easily as possible.)

[Old Henry]

VILLAIN APPREHENDED!!

Who wudda thunk it?? Here's the cause and source of the noise.

It was that danged coupler pin I've mentioned before that made such an annoying noise for over a year before it finally wore down enough to fall out. I thought I was done with it and it was just sitting in the bottom of the torque tube, which it was, until halfway between Arco and Blackfoot Idaho two weeks ago when it found its way to where the tabs of the lock washer between the two pinion nuts protruded - then got caught by them (that was the first big bang and probably the second one too) and jammed there to catch and knock whenever there was no load on the drive line. My theory on that is that when the pinion gear was under load it was pulling down on the front of the ring gear which may have lifted it up just enough to clear the pin remnants. Then, when there was back pressure on the drive line (decelerating) I could hear the noise but when there was no load either way the pinion gear could just drop down ever so little but enough to hit the fragments of the pin and cause the noise.

I am mighty relieved that I didn't have to open up the banjo and do anything in there. All that I've read about that convinced me that I didn't have the specialized tools necessary to do anything in there and would have to just try to find a used banjo already set up if anything had to be done. What a relief I don't have to deal with that.

Here are pictures of the culprits.

This one shows the three pieces of the pin that was out and laying in the bottom of the torque tube next to the pinion nuts and the one remaining head of the other pin that was still in there but the head was rubbing on the inside of the torque tube. (I could hear that with the stethoscope.)




This is just a little closer showing the pin that was still in there with the head rubbing on the inside of the torque tube and the damage to the lock washer.



So, question is: whether I should even bother to put pins back in or whether they are so un-needed and useless compared to the trouble they cause that I can just leave them out and not have to worry about this problem any more.

What do you think?

Oh yeah - what about all of the metal in the differential oil? That all came off of those lock washer tabs and pin fragments and flowed back into the differential through the drain hole at the bottom of the banjo housing.

[Planojc]

Pin it for sure.

[G.M.]

Is that pin hollow? All the pins Ihave seen or used were solid. I use a solid pin and heat the ends peening them like a rivet and never had a problem. Make sure there is no wear or play in the coupling, that will shear the pin. G.M.

[don-wi]

If it were my car I'd be opening it up. I'd want to really take a good look at the pinion bearings and carrier bearings. It doesn't take much metal to score a bearing. By taking it apart you can get it cleaned up inside also, I don't think flushing it out would remove all the metal.
Good Luck
Don

[JM 35 Sedan]

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Originally Posted by don-wi

If it were my car I'd be opening it up. I'd want to really take a good look at the pinion bearings and carrier bearings. It doesn't take much metal to score a bearing. By taking it apart you can get it cleaned up inside also, I don't think flushing it out would remove all the metal.
Good Luck
Don

I agree with Don. Do the job right the first time so hopefully you don't have to do it again later. I would also want to check the condition of the splines on the drive shaft, the pinion and the coupler. There must be slop in the fit of the splines to cause them to shear pins. As GM said, those pins do not look like the correct parts for the job. The correct type pins should be put back in as he described. I would personally take this opportunity to check the complete rear for everything including gear alignment, bearings, seals, etc., etc. There are some good procedures posted on the internet on how to do everything necessary. If you don't feel confident doing it yourself...find someone who can. JMO.

[Henry/Kokomo]

Considering that Old Henry doesn't just drive around the neighborhood, I'd be really tempted to do a complete job. The metal particles can really cause some mischief. Renewing the pins with proper ones seems necessary, too. FWIW

[41ford1]

I agree with the others. Go through the rear end. You saw evidence of metal chips in the drained oil. Not a good sign.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Planojc

Pin it for sure.

Originally Posted by G.M.

Is that pin hollow? All the pins Ihave seen or used were solid. I use a solid pin and heat the ends peening them like a rivet and never had a problem. Make sure there is no wear or play in the coupling, that will shear the pin. G.M.

Although the pins do look hollow because of the way thay are worn they are the stock solid pins that were peened on as described (by someone else in my abscence). All indications are that they are the correct solid pins installed correctly. I know there was some wear of the splines on the drive shaft and pinion shaft when the driveline was "rebuilt" 25,000 miles ago. A new coupler was installed. As has been suggested, the only reason I can think of that these pins failed is too much play in the spline fits. That being the case, and nothing more I'm going to do about it, I am still inclined to leave the pins out unless someone can give me a real good reason to put them back in other than "tradition". Anyone?

[Mart]

I can see what you are thinking, but I think one of the functions of the pins is to stop the driveshaft drifting forward. Thinking further, they do nothing in the driving direction, the splines take care of that, so fore and aft location is their only purpose.

I did read a post where someone described some pins that were turned undersize, but can't remember the exact reasoning behind it.

I once used a high tensile allen headed bolt instead of a pin and that broke. I think the pins are better if they are quite soft and malleable.

Is there clearance for a hose clip? if you put new pins in, and a hose clip over each one with the heads 180 degrees apart, if a pin broke, the clip would hold the remnants in place and stop any repeat of the noise.

On the other hand, maybe having the noise is a good warning that the pins have broke.

Mart.

[41ford1]

Originally Posted by Mart

I can see what you are thinking, but I think one of the functions of the pins is to stop the driveshaft drifting forward. Thinking further, they do nothing in the driving direction, the splines take care of that, so fore and aft location is their only purpose.

I did read a post where someone described some pins that were turned undersize, but can't remember the exact reasoning behind it.

I once used a high tensile allen headed bolt instead of a pin and that broke. I think the pins are better if they are quite soft and malleable.

Is there clearance for a hose clip? if you put new pins in, and a hose clip over each one with the heads 180 degrees apart, if a pin broke, the clip would hold the remnants in place and stop any repeat of the noise.

On the other hand, maybe having the noise is a good warning that the pins have broke.

Mart.

I think Mart is right on. The idea of turning down the pin would compensate for worn splines. That way the splines take all the rotational force and not the pin since it would float in the hole.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mart

I think one of the functions of the pins is to stop the driveshaft drifting forward. Mart.

So, where would the drive shaft drift if it drifted forward? All I can think of is the U-joint? Is there anything that would be affected negatively by a little forward and back sliding? I'm not coming up with anything. When the drive line was disassembled to rebuild it 25,000 miles ago the pins were long gone and had been for I don't know how many years without any affect as far as I could tell. It was the guy that rebuilt it that decided to put them back in, much to my shagrin now that I've suffered from it. The only possible downside to leaving the pins out that I can think of is some wear of the splines from the friction of sliding slightly forward and backward. That doesn't seem very likely since that coupler section is lubricated by the differential oil. Still thinking about it as you can tell. So far I've only had the downside of the pins and am struggling to come up with an up side.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mart

Is there clearance for a hose clip? if you put new pins in, and a hose clip over each one with the heads 180 degrees apart, if a pin broke, the clip would hold the remnants in place and stop any repeat of the noise.
Mart.

There is hardly enough room in there for the heads of peened pins, much less anything like a hose clip.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mart

. . . maybe having the noise is a good warning that the pins have broke. Mart.

Knowing the pins have broken is only good to know if having them not broken is a good thing. So far, it's looking like having no pins to break and make any noise is better than whatever good the pins are. I'm still thinking about it.

[G.M.]

Fixed right it will last for hundreds of thousands of miles. The last fix only lasted 25,000 miles. G.M.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 41ford1

I think Mart is right on. The idea of turning down the pin would compensate for worn splines. That way the splines take all the rotational force and not the pin since it would float in the hole.

I don't know how you'd peen undersized pins without swelling their diameter up to fill the holes.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by G.M.

Fixed right it will last for hundreds of thousands of miles. The last fix only lasted 25,000 miles. G.M.

I'm not seeing where my last fix was not fixed right. It seems like it was done exactly the same way you suggested. What are you talking about? Can you be more specific about how you did it differently than he did it?

[41ford1]

If the undercut is the same length as the inner shaft the ends can be peened against the collar. The under cut would prevent the pin from taking the rotational force caused be the worn splines. I guess the real question is: Where they ever installed when the car was built? When the rear was done 25,000 miles ago, was that the first time it was opened up?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 41ford1

. . . the real question is: Where they ever installed when the car was built? When the rear was done 25,000 miles ago, was that the first time it was opened up?

When the torque tube was removed from the differential there was a remnant of a bolt with threads on it in that end of the torque tube that had apparently been used for the pin at some point and come out. I have no reason to believe that pins were not installed when the car was built. I know my brother broke a couple of rear axles hot rodding the old car after I left home in the early 70's and replaced them. He probably opened that up and may have stuck the bolt in.

[ford38v8]

Henry, check your drive line front to back. New motor and tranny mounts snugged down, anti-chatter rods properly installed, correct shackles and spring U bolts cinched up properly. Now check that you have the thrust washer installed at the U joint. All that's left is the coupler, the worn splines, and the pins. Buy a new coupler and new pins. Pick up a drive shaft with better splines, and seriously consider changing out your ring/pinion, or otherwise, cross your fingers.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Henry, check your drive line front to back. New motor and tranny mounts snugged down, anti-chatter rods properly installed, correct shackles and spring U bolts cinched up properly. Now check that you have the thrust washer installed at the U joint. All that's left is the coupler, the worn splines, and the pins. Buy a new coupler and new pins. Pick up a drive shaft with better splines, and seriously consider changing out your ring/pinion, or otherwise, cross your fingers.

Originally Posted by 41ford1

I agree with the others. Go through the rear end.

Originally Posted by Henry/Kokomo

Considering that Old Henry doesn't just drive around the neighborhood, I'd be really tempted to do a complete job. FWIW

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

I agree with Don. Do the job right the first time so hopefully you don't have to do it again later. I would personally take this opportunity to check the complete rear for everything including gear alignment, bearings, seals, etc., etc. There are some good procedures posted on the internet on how to do everything necessary. If you don't feel confident doing it yourself...find someone who can. JMO.

Originally Posted by don-wi

If it were my car I'd be opening it up. I'd want to really take a good look at the pinion bearings and carrier bearings. It doesn't take much metal to score a bearing. By taking it apart you can get it cleaned up inside also, I don't think flushing it out would remove all the metal.
Good Luck
Don

I really do appreciate all of your suggestions to "go clear through" the rear end. I have carefully considered each and every one and studied very completely and carefully this thread on the HAMB detailing how to do it. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=462776 I think if I had the confidence and correct tools and hadn't gotten to the point I'd much rather drive it than work on it I'd probably do that very thing. As I don't have the confidence or specialized tools, don't know anyone locally who does, (no - I'm afraid Chuck is not such an one) and need to get the car back on its wheels and on the road as soon as possible I'm probably going to go with my general policy of "if it ain't broke don't fix it." I have had no problems with the differential other than the annoying noises over the last several years that now appear to all be caused by the danged coupler pins.

What I am going to do is order a new lock washer that goes between the pinion nuts since they may well have been moved by the impact of the pin fragments, remove the outer nut, re-torque the inner nut to specs to take up any slack that there may be from bearing wear, re-install the lock washer, put on the outer nut and bend the tabs down to lock it, and, after I get it all put back on the car run the drive line in the air with mineral spirits or solvent in the differential a few times to rinse out the metal flicks, put in new oil with a little added ZDDP as always and drive the wheels off of it again.

I'll also be replacing the brake line from the front T to the hose that goes to the rear axle brake line, the short hose that's in that line, gaskets between the torque tube and banjo, U-joint gaskets, speedo turtle gaskets, track bar and shackle bushings and studs.

I'm still considering replacing the coupler and pins as well as the speedometer cable.

Thanks again for all your help.

[PeteVS]

I posted awhile back that I had once read of a fix to drill the torque tube, pull out the loose pin and put a pipe plug in the hole. Looks like that's what ya shoulda done. Now, the questions why did it only rattle in certain circumstances? Could it be that the pinion bearing loosened up? That might allow the pinion to move back and forth making the noise / no noise situation. I'd say you're in for a complete tear down.

[PeteVS]

Big difference here between "setting up" a banjo rear and just disassembling, cleaning and reassembling with the same gasket counts. I don't think it's too feasible to reassemble without getting the axles vertical as in that HAMB thread. I don't think it's wise to be leaving little bits of metal in there! IMHO!

PS: I don't think there's any "torque spec" for the pinion nuts. They should be torqued to a bearing preload which you should be able to do by feel. That would be a lot easier to do if the ring gear, carrier and axles were out of the way during that set up. Once again, IMHO!

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

....What I am going to do is order a new lock washer that goes between the pinion nuts since they may well have been moved by the impact of the pin fragments, remove the outer nut, re-torque the inner nut to specs to take up any slack that there may be from wear, re-install the lock washer, put on the outer nut and bend the tabs down to lock it....

Henry, DO NOT mess with the pinion lock nuts unless you intend to rebuild the banjo. These locknuts are just that, they are locked, you can see from the pictures thety haven't moved, and those nuts aren't "torqued" anyway. They are tightened to provide a preload on the pinion bearing, the correct preload itself determining how much to tighten the nuts.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Henry, DO NOT mess with the pinion lock nuts unless you intend to rebuild the banjo. These locknuts are just that, they are locked, you can see from the pictures thety haven't moved, and those nuts aren't "torqued" anyway. They are tightened to provide a preload on the pinion bearing, the correct preload itself determining how much to tighten the nuts.

The guy in the HAMB article showed these specs for tightening the pinion nut.



Granted 8-14 in/lbs is not much torque. I don't know what pre-load on bearings is so tell me some more why not try to adjust that nut to that spec for used bearings to try to take up some slack from wear. I'm here to learn.

[PeteVS]

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Originally Posted by ford38v8

Henry, DO NOT mess with the pinion lock nuts unless you intend to rebuild the banjo. These locknuts are just that, they are locked, you can see from the pictures thety haven't moved, and those nuts aren't "torqued" anyway. They are tightened to provide a preload on the pinion bearing, the correct preload itself determining how much to tighten the nuts.

If, as he says, the pinion shaft is moving up and down under load / no load, the pinion bearings ARE loose and need to be reset.

[PeteVS]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The guy in the HAMB article showed these specs for tightening the pinion nut.



Granted 8-14 in/lbs is not much torque. I don't know what pre-load on bearings is so tell me some more why not try to adjust that nut to that spec for used bearings to try to take up some slack from wear. I'm here to learn.

Those are not nut torques! That's what the torque to turn the pinion shaft should be when the the first nut is tightened. Once that first nut is set, the second nut gets cranked up TIGHT!

[Rocketsled]

Pre-load is neccessary on tapered roller bearings to ensure that line-contact is achieved along the length of the rollers.
Ball bearings make point contact and they come with different internal clearances depending on the application conditions, for example at higher temperatures more internal clearance in needed to compensate for expansion.
Roller bearings make line-contact and tapered roller bearings need to be preloaded to ensure that the rollers make full contact with the cup and can thereby take the prescribed load. If too loose, the rollers may rattle, cause wear and not be ready to take a heavy load. If not in full line contact a heavy shock load could fracture things.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by PeteVS

Those are not nut torques! That's what the torque to turn the pinion shaft should be when the the first nut is tightened. Once that first nut is set, the second nut gets cranked up TIGHT!

Pete has it right here. The lock washer slides onto the spline and cannot turn. The locknut cinches up to it, then the lock washer folds over the two nuts, locking them together. You can see in your pictures that the two nuts are still locked together.

Pete, I disagree with the idea that the pinion bearing could be loose, thereby causing the secondary condition. If that were the case, there would be major problems within the banjo, with failure long before the coupling pins sheared.

[ford38v8]

Henry, to answer your question regarding the preload, the preload is set on the pinion while nothing else is impeding the movement of the pinion. That means having the pinion and its bearings insgtalled in the banjo which is otherwise empty, no ring gear, no axles, no axle housings. There is a KRW tool, which is a spring loaded wrench with a gage, doesn't work well at all. Best to do the job the way the old time mechanics did it: Clamp the pinion in a bench vise pointed down, the banjo free to turn above the vise. To test the preload, hold the banjo with both hands, spin it hard and fast, and the banjo will come to a stop before it continues beyond one full turn after release. That will show you that the bearing has its correct preload.

[PeteVS]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Pete, I disagree with the idea that the pinion bearing could be loose, thereby causing the secondary condition. If that were the case, there would be major problems within the banjo, with failure long before the coupling pins sheared.

Back in post #42, Henry theorized that the pinion shaft might be moving up and down under or off load causing the condition that would kick up the fragments causing the noise. Whether the pinion shaft is moving up or down, or fore or aft, I feel that the pinion bearings should be set as you state. I wonder if there is any perceptible looseness in the pinion bearings, either sideways or axial? The fact that the noise occurs only under no load, to me, indicates that the pinion is loose. IMHO

[Old Henry]

Now you can see why I'm scared to death to do anything!!

[ford38v8]

Pete, I don't think so, because looseness would produce horrific results within the banjo. The cause of the noise, I believe, is the same cause that sheared the pins: Movement fore and aft. Correcting the cause of that movement should provide answers to all the questions of the universe for all time.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

The lock washer slides onto the spline and cannot turn.

Once I realized that the lock washer could not turn I ruled out the thought I had that the nuts might have turned from the washer tabs being hit by the pin fragment. That just leaves play caused by wear.

I just went out and took the coupler off of the pinion spline and gave it a wiggle. It did have just barely perceptible play in it which I don't think it should have any. So, I'm probably going to tighten the inside nut to specs to take that out as I said before. Since I'm not going to have an empty banjo to spin I'll use an inch/pound torque wrench I'll borrow from Autozone to get it right.




Oops. Just realized I have no socket big enough and deep enough to put on that nut to use the torque wrench so I guess I'll just tighten it finger tight to "load" the bearings and that will have to be better than it is now with perceptible play. (That's what old Chuck would do and I like his thinking - sometimes.)

[ford38v8]

Henry, don't be discouraged! This stuff is not rocket science. I can see where different opinions can be confusing, but get yourself a copy of an old MoToRs Manual and read up on your project before you start. Get one of no later than a 1951 vintage 14th edition, and you'll have the best book you can find for any old Ford repair you can imagine. These can be had for less than $25 if you don't mind a few dogeared pages and greasy fingerprints.

[ford38v8]

Henry, the play you feel, if it is rotational play, is the relationship of the pinion to the ring gear, which is addressable by the use of proper thickness axle housing gaskets. If the play is not rotational, but up/down/sideways, you may be in the market for new bearings, particularly as you found metal in the banjo oil.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

. . . read up on your project before you start.

Don't want no "project". Just want to fix what's broken and get back on the road. My hobby is more driving than tinkering.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Henry, the play you feel, if it is rotational play, is the relationship of the pinion to the ring gear, which is addressable by the use of proper thickness axle housing gaskets.

The play is not rotational. So, no problem with the gear fits. It's the other which I think will be taken care of by tightening the inside nut a bit.

Originally Posted by ford38v8

. . . you may be in the market for new bearings.

Maybe someday when they actually break I'll fix 'em. Right now they're working fine so I'll just adjust 'em and run 'em.

Thanks for your interest and your help. I really do appreciate it.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The play is not rotational. So, no problem with the ring gear. It's the other which I think will be taken care of by tightening the inside nut a bit...)

Ok, then, but be sure you understand that to get a preload, you must actually turn the pinion, feeling the bearings load as you turn. To simply tighten until you feel no slack would spell disaster.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Ok, then, but be sure you understand that to get a preload, you must actually turn the pinion, feeling the bearings load as you turn. To simply tighten until you feel no slack would spell disaster.

10-4 good buddy. I'll turn as I tighten.

Thanks again.

[ford38v8]

Get busy with it, so you can take the grandkids for a ride after the Xmas dinner!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Get busy with it, so you can take the grandkids for a ride after the Xmas dinner!

Flying out tomorrow morning to Virginia for a week to visit daughter and her family there. That's why I had to get this all decided tonight so I could order any parts I'll need tonight to have them when I get back in a week to put it all back together before the big family feed on the 10th in G'Raj Mahal.

Merry Christmas!

[40 Deluxe]

Find whatever socket in your toolbox that will fit over the pinion shaft splines (doesn't have to be a perfect fit) and use the torque wrench to take a reading before you touch that inner nut (or outer one). Read the dial as you are turning, not the amount to start turning. Write that number down. Next add about 12-15 in. lbs. to that number and adjust the inner nut to get this total reading. This will allow for any drag from turning the whole ring gear/axles, etc.
Note that when you tighten the outer or lock nut that the preload will increase a little so take another reading before you bend the lock washer ears over. you can loosen/tighten the locknut without a socket by using a dull chisel or punch and hammer by tapping on the nut at an angle (angle determined by practice!).

[41ford1]

You may want to flush the differential to remove as much metal bits as you can. Do that before making any adjustments. I'd used something like ATF or some light oil. Spin the pinion and each axel a few minutes by hand. Then drain and refill with gear oil. It might be worth putting a magnetic drain plug in. I fully get not wanting to do a full tear down.

[G.M.]

Use a parts washing gun and diesel fuel to wash it out.G.M.

[Old Henry]

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Originally Posted by 41ford1

I fully get not wanting to do a full tear down.

Finally - a voice sympathetic to my plight as a novice.

Originally Posted by 41ford1

You may want to flush the differential to remove as much metal bits as you can. Do that before making any adjustments. I'd used something like ATF or some light oil. Spin the pinion and each axel a few minutes by hand. Then drain and refill with gear oil. It might be worth putting a magnetic drain plug in.

I like your thinking on the cleaning and magnetic drain plug. I'll do that for sure.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Henry, get her done the way you want to do it. Not much need for further discussion on this one.

[Old Henry]

For any curious to see what sheared off my coupler pins look at this 30 second video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN3yZ...ature=youtu.be

[Tony, NY]

The slop in the splines (see video) seems to me to be excessive. The pin will be flexing and eventually break again. Maybe this was already talked about.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Tony, NY

The slop in the splines (see video) seems to me to be excessive. The pin will be flexing and eventually break again. Maybe this was already talked about.

You are exactly right about that. The coupler is new 30,000 miles ago but the pinion shaft is original. So, to remove the slop I'd have to replace that gear and the ring gear for $200-400 or, just leave the pin out. No one really came up with any good reason for the pin to be in there. There is no way the coupler could slide far enough forward or backward to slide off so, instead of the expensive task that I really don't know how to do, I left the pin out and put it back together. I expect it to last the rest of my life just like it is.

[Mart]

Or at least last long enough for you to be able to find a nice replacement axle, in good running order, (nice and tight), and plan a switcheroo when it is convenient.

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mart

Or at least last long enough for you to be able to find a nice replacement axle, in good running order, (nice and tight), and plan a switcheroo when it is convenient.

Mart.

Or that.

[PeteVS]

I was just looking at post #42 with the pictures. I hadn't realized that both of the pins had come undone. Perhaps the noise started when parts of the second pin arrived on the scene and caused the ruckus. Anyway, the splines aren't gonna get any better. I doubt that replacing the pins would help.

[woodypecker]

Report back after another 25,000 miles.

[Old Henry]

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

I was totally wrong!

I finally got everything back together tonight and took a test drive. All my work was in vain and my diagnosis in error. THE ANNOYING NOISE IS STILL THERE!!!

So, all I learned from all of that effort is what the noise was NOT. It was not the chunks of coupler pin grinding on the pinion lock washer.

I guess it's just one of those noises I'm going to have to try to get used to until it either goes away or something actually breaks worse and stops me in my tracks. At least it's not there under power, just when decelerating or with the clutch in or in neutral.

Sometimes we lives and we learns. Sometimes we just lives.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Henry, it was surprising to me, with all the driving and long trips you take, that you did not completely go through that rear and do what needed to be done while you had it out and apart. I'm even more surprised that you put it back together, found that it's making the same noise, but plan to drive it that way until it fails, possibly in a dangerous situation with other family members onboard. This just does not make good sense to me. I usually do not like to be judgemental but just couldn't help myself on the outcome of this thread.

[1937pickup]

I feel your pain Henry-my 37 pick up has a clicking noise above 20 mph that I can not figure out. At first I thought it was a wheel bearing-nope. Checked the turtle-nope. Eelectric fuel pump-nope. Speedometer or cable-nope. Based on where the noise is located it may be the Holly fuel pressure regulator. Having said that I have AAA paid up and am driving it until what ever it is fails and tells me what it is. Hey its an old Ford and may never fail.

[Old Henry]

When I had the axle off I spun it every which way as fast as I could and could not reproduce the noise. The differential was smooth and tight. When I got it all back together and still in the air I ran it the same as I did to test it before and could not get the noise again. The drive line was actually quieter with the clutch in than in gear - just opposite of what it had been before. I was so excited. My efforts had been worth it. Then back down on the ground for the test run. Started going uphill from my house - everything grand. Got to the top of the hill and turned around to come back down and there it was again.

I'm conviced that it's not in the differential because it's the speed of the drive line. The only thing left that I can think of is the bearing in the middle of the torque tube. That's the only other thing that would be wearing out and making noise at the same speed as the drive shaft.

In response to JM 35 Sedan's very tackful condemnation, I am one that prefers finding out what the cause of a problem is before just starting to replace and rebuild things that just might be the problem. As I had no reason to believe the problem was in the differential when I had it off of the car, I had no reason to rebuild or replace that.

I'm afraid only time is going to accurately diagnose the cause of this noise so I can really know what to fix.

[Mart]

Off the top of my head - havn't really thought this through.

Old setup before teardown - pins no longer active, shaft free to move fore and aft, shaft moves forward, contacts bolt in back of transmission, noise generated.

Torn down, put back together without pins, shaft in roughly the right position. Ininial tests seem ok. Short drive with proper loads being transmitted. shaft slowly moves forward, contact remade with trans bolt, noise reappears.

I'm not saying that's definitely the problem, but it could be a possibility.

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Even as doctors should do: Diagnose before you prescribe.

I got real committed to diagnosing before repairing on our first really long road trip 25 years ago in our Dodge 10 passenger van with 8 kids, my wife, her mother and sister (total 12 in the van) - destination: the northeast from Utah. I did everything to that van imaginable before leaving to make sure we had no incidents on the trip.

As we traveled across the country and got toward Massachusetts a clicking developed somewhere under the van at the same speed as the wheels. From inside of the van it sounded like it was in the rear. I finally decided it was a rear wheel bearing going out and didn't want it to fail and be stranded somewhere. So, as we pulled into Boston for what was planned to be a day of seeing the historical sites there I decided to get it fixed. At the gas station where we filled up I got a referral to a garage not far from there across the street from a cemetery. Pulled in and told them my rear wheel bearings were going out and to replace them. So, there I sat with the van for several hours as they replaced those wheel bearings while the family spent their day in Boston playing at the cemetery across the street!

Finally the repair was done and we were back on the road again. Didn't get out of site of the garage before hearing the clicking sound again!

Went back to the garage. They said to drive the van slowly down the road while they walked beside the van to see where the clicking was coming from. It was in the front right wheel! It was in the disk brake! A quick squirt of something on it silenced the noise! By the time we got into Boston all we had time to do was drive through! Lost a great opportunity to spend the day there to see the sites simply because I did not accurately diagnose before repairing! I committed never agian.

Ever since then I have resisted the natural temptation to just start replacing parts when I'm not really sure what's wrong as I'm afraid too many do and I go through intricate diagnostic procedures to know precisely what the problem is so that I can just fix that problem instead of a bunch of other stuff that ain't even broke.

Likewise, I have had my newer cars into garages that are poor at diagnosing but great at just throwing some time and parts at a problem hoping it fixes it. Needless to say, I don't go to those kind more than once. I finally found a garage that will not try to fix anything that they do not know exactly what is wrong. And, they are extremely skilled in diagnosing so that I know when I pick up my car after they've fixed it it is really fixed and I don't have to worry about going back to "try something else" when what they tried didn't work.

That's the longer explanation why I did not just "go through" the entire rear end while I had it out of the car. There was no evidence that anything was wrong with it and plenty of evidence that the noise was caused by the pin fragments. I was wrong about that but would even more likely have been wrong to spend hundreds of dollars rebuilding the tranny without any evidence it was broke.

Someday what is now just noisy may really break. Then I'll fix it. If it don't break I won't fix it.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mart

Short drive with proper loads being transmitted. shaft slowly moves forward, contact remade with trans bolt, noise reappears. Mart.

I'm still listening and pondering.
I don't understand what you're talking about.
I don't understand what transmission bolt the drive shaft could hit to make the noise. The front end of the drive shaft is inside of the U-joint. How could it hit any trans bolt?

Yours is a new idea. Telll me more. I'm looking for anything that makes sense.

[woodypecker]

Henry Ford never spent any money he did not have to. I always wondered what the pins where for and I think you are going to find out for me. I do not remember the detail inside the U joint but I think there is a bolt holding it to the trans output shaft and that probably is what Mart is talking about.

[Mart]

The bolt that holds the u-joint to the end of the output shaft.

Mart.

[uncle max]

My money is on Mart's loose bolt!
Probably the reason the coulper pins went South in the first place...

[Old Henry]

I understand what you're talking about now and it's making sense. Wish I'd had that suggestion before I put everything back together. That would have been easy to check and fix if that was the problem. I'm going to do some more testing. If that is the problem then going up hill the shaft would slide back away from the bolt whereas going downhill or stopping it would slide forward and hit. So, I'll try to reverse the natural process by pushing in on the clutch while still going uphill and see if I've got the noise. If I don't have the noise pushing in on the clutch going uphill like I do stopping or decelerating downhill that will be more support for this theory. I'll also listen again under the car in the U-joint area to see if I can hear anything. The sound was all coming from the back before and I would think I'd hear something up at the front if that was the problem so I'll listen again.

Thanks for your continued support and ideas.

Funny thing. Strange new noises bug me a lot more before I figure out what they are. After I figure out what they are and know it's nothing too "serious" I seem to be able to tolerate them better. In this case, if it is a loose bolt holding the U-joint to the transmission output shaft I'll have to think about the consequences of waiting until it falls out verses taking it all apart again just to tighten the bolt. Or, maybe the bolt is tight and I just need to figure out how to get some pins to work in the coupler with all of the slack on the pinion spline.

[hotcoupe]

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old henry, you wrote - I just need to figure out how to get some pins to work in the coupler with all of the slack on the pinion spline. maybe you could use a smaller diameter pin, so there would be no shearing action with the lash between the coupler and shaft. i believe the pins are in there for a reason.
tom

[PeteVS]

Did the front end of the drive shaft or the head of the universal bolt show any signs of impact?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by PeteVS

Did the front end of the drive shaft or the head of the universal bolt show any signs of impact?

I wasn't looking for that kind of stuff. I was totally distracted by the pin fragments and chewed up pinion lock washer.

[41ford1]

Yeah, redoing is PITA. Re-read post #58. That will be the solution to keeping the worn parts in the proper alignment. If the coupler or shaft is moving for and aft causing the noise. A modified pin will prevent the excessive movement of the coupler and drive shaft.

[Mart]

I didn't say anything about the bolt being loose, just the shaft drifting forward and contacting it.

Mart.

[BILL WZOREK]

Henry:
If the shaft is moving I think it is sliding not by the fact of going up hill or down hill
AKA gravity
I think it is torque / acceleration torque pushes the shaft back wards , lack of torque it is pushed forward.
Try this try backing up the hill and see if you hear it,and also try going down hill forward and apply the brake and accelerate at the same time. see if the noise shows up.

[Mart]

It's very difficult to work out what is happening remotely.

Here's another scenario.

Due to the helical cut on the gears, when the car is being driven down the road and accellerating, the pinion is thrust forwards, away from the diff carrier. This puts the main load on the rearward pinion bearing.

When decellerating, the helical cut on the gears pulls the pinion inwards towards the diff carrier, putting increased loading on the forward pinion bearing.

You had damaged parts floating around in the area right near to the forward pinion bearing.

It is conceivable that the forward pinion bearing has been damaged or a flake of pin material has got in there. It may be this damage or contamination that is causing the noise. You don't hear it under power because the front bearing is only lightly loaded, it becomes louder on the overrun because on the increased load in that condition.

As I was typing I thought of a way to test this. If the front bearing is damaged, it will be noisy in reverse. Louder than on the overrun going forward. If it is loud when accelerating in reverse and quiet on the overrun in reverse than it could be the front bearing.

Or not.

Mart.

PS good cut away drawing of a diff unit on Mac Van Pelt's site.

[BILL WZOREK]

Mart:

Kinda what I was trying to say but I guess Bottom line is it will not get better on its own.
It's like living under a one legged man going to bed you hear one shoe hit the floor but wait for the other / when will it happen / in this case when will it fail,the uncertainty would drive me nuts !!!!

[Old Henry]

One more diagnose before you repair story you might enjoy:

Several years ago I was coming back from a parade that I drove my car in and it died. No matter what I tried on the side of the road I could not get it started and had it towed home. For several weeks after that I tried everything I could think might be the problem and finally concluded that it just didn't have enough compression to run any more (it was 50 years old and had never been rebuilt). So, I concluded that was all that was left to fix it was rebuild it. I searched long and hard all over the country and finally found one of the best flathead rebuilders just 35 miles from me. I towed the car up to him and told him very plainly, "I don't want to rebuild this engine if it doesn't need it. Do everything you can just to get it started and running if you can before taking it out and tearing it apart." I thought I had his agreement on that and left. The next morning I called him to see how it was going. "We couldn't get it started so we've already taken it out and started rebuilding it." Well, after a couple of months it was finally done and I went to pick it up. It still wouldn't start!! And he didn't know why??? So, I towed it back home. As you know, when an engine is rebuilt they just take all the stuff off of it (distributor, coil, carburetor, water pumps, etc.) and set them aside and just put them back on when the engine is rebuilt without doing anything to them. And so it was with me. So, I got it home and then and only then did I decide to replace the condenser that I'd just replaced shortly before that fateful day coming home from the parade. It was about the only thing I hadn't checked because "it was just replaced." You can see where this is going - that was all that was wrong with my engine - a bad condenser!!??

So, there you have it - because I did not accurately diagnose the problem by checking all components by themselves before giving up I spent $3,000 to fix a problem that did not get fixed that I could have fixed for $10.

And now, after all I've said on this subject, I am just about to violate the principle and just buy this complete assembly of axle, torque tube, and spring that has 92,000 miles on it and was just removed from a driver for $500.00 to just totally replace eveything that just may be broke or at least badly worn. That's just $20.00 more than just buying a new ring and pinion gear. I'm at the end of my rope. I'm tired of messing with it and bothering all of you good people with this silly problem and have lost all confidence in my ability to diagnose on this one.



What do you think of that idea?

[Lawson Cox]

Generally rear ends don't give problems. But then again . . .