Flathead Lifter Adjusting - "On the Bench"

[GOSFAST]

Well almost on the bench anyway? This is for NEW builds only. The method I'll place below here will allow the lifters to be adjusted while out of the unit! It's actually fairly simple and you MAY not even have to touch the adjusters again after it's been assembled (you will need a bit of luck here for this though)?

Each time we assemble one of these Flatheads we try to come up with ANY idea/method that will make the present and future jobs a bit easier.

In order to explain it all clearly I'll post the method in steps here. I would add this also, you will need a dial indicator and some way to hold it steady! I generally use our drill press here. A conventional "magnetic" dial indicator stand (photo below) will work here also, we only use the drill press/Bridgeport because they're handy! (I'll have some photos at the end of the post)

In order for this to be 100% doable you MUST "mock up" the cam/lifters in the block with the t/gear bolted on with just 2 bolts. We use old cam brgs that we've saved to help here! You can actually sand the O.D. on the a front and rear brg and make it a "slip-fit" in to the block!

All the info here will be for 1 cylinder only, you simply repeat it for the others! You don't need any "lube" anywhere at this point, not on the lifters, guides, etc.

1-Place the cam in the block (using old ft/rr cam brgs), bolt the t/gear on the front with 2 screws.
2-Assemble an intake and exhaust valve and guide for 1 cylinder with one of the actual retainers and locks using a "checking spring" to hold it all together. (Photo below)
3-Place a lifter in the bore (remember everything is "dry" still, no oil/no cam lube, makes for easier working)
4-Slide the assembly into it's respective hole with the lifter (you won't even need the guide retainers/horseshoe locks to do this step), now check whether you have a "gap" or the there's no clearance? Chances are it won't be too tight, in the event it is pull the lifter and turn the adjusting nut in?
5-If there's a "gap", measure it using a feeler gauge, write it down, and establish the amount you need (this would be the recommended lash for your cam), subtract the lash from the recorded number, write this down. This (obviously) is the amount you'll need to the "raise" the adjuster to get to that number. (E.G., if you have a "gap" of .030" and you have a required lash setting of .012" you'll need to screw the adjuster OUT exactly .018"?? Next remove the lifter and now you're ready to make the "adjustment" using the dial indicator ON THE BENCH!! (Photo below)
6-After "lengthening" the lifter install all the components on the same cylinder and recheck it again.

--- There is one extremely important item to be mentioned here, when you've finished each individual lifter/guide/valve ass'y be absolutely certain to keep it all marked for the EXACT cylinder, both intake and exhaust, just used for the measuring, DO NOT mix any of the parts at this point! If you do you will have "wasted" some valuable time? ---

The entire 16 assemblies can be checked beforehand in about 1 hour, the end result, you'll find the desired lash will be VERY close to or MAYBE even wind up being "on the money"! We leave an extra "thou" or "two" for the correct spring pressures. If the lash settings do need to be changed it should take no time at all, every one should be very close to the needed number?

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. On the left photo you check the "beginning" valve lash, can't see in the photo but the lifters are installed, horseshoe clips for guides not needed here, on the right photo you make the necessary adjustment "on-the-bench" to get your lash after simply removing the lifter temporarily! Reinstall the parts and recheck! Simple!

[corvette8n]

Gary: Thanks for the tip.

[Bored&Stroked]

It is even easier Gary if you do the valve seats and associated depths on a mill with a DRO - making them all the same.

[Ronnieroadster]

Gee been doing it this way for a few decade's now. Really easy to do with a simple vernier caliper. Takes me all of 25 minuets start to finish.
Ronnieroadster

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Gee been doing it this way for a few decade's now. Really easy to do with a simple vernier caliper. Takes me all of 25 minuets start to finish.
Ronnieroadster

Yep - pretty much how I set the lengths . . .

[GOSFAST]

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Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

It is even easier Gary if you do the valve seats and associated depths on a mill with a DRO - making them all the same.

Hi Dale, with our head machine, working on one side of the block, we can machine AND install all 8 seats, have them all the same hgts (within a thou or two) by the design of the machine, then without removing the block we can come right back and machine all 8 seats so every one of the valves are the same hgts (also within a thou or two). We can machine a "simple" 45* seat angle or we can do two, three, or even more angles in a single cut! Depends on the size of the seat of course!

We can only pull this off due to our head machine, no other "conventional" head machine can get this done in this manner. There may be another brand out there, I'm just not aware of any? We recently sold off much equipment (Sunnen Cylinder King, Sunnen power-stroked rod hone, Tobin-Arp pin fitting machine, Storm head/block miller (all our milling today is done on the CNC mill), etc. I just refused to sell this particular machine due to its versatility.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The sole purpose to the method I described at the beginning here is to not have to spend so much time working in the lifter valley trying to "chase" valve lash. I don't enjoy it, I know that for a fact. I also may have a better method than using the holes drilled through the bottoms of lifter bores to keep them from turning while adjusting the screws, we'll see how that pans out?

[alchemy]

Not a lot of experience doing it, but I had always understood it's bad to screw the adjusters outward. They won't have as tight of interference on the threads then. Do you guys run into this?

Do you guys ever use any locking fluid in the adjusters after they have a "final" adjustment? I can see it would be a bear to keep them clean and lube-free while all the assembly is happening, and impossible to clean again once in the engine.

[Talkwrench]

Timely Gary .. I didnt even bother putting a spring on I just slipped the valve and guide in and held it down with my thumb , that way I felt the feeler gauge too. Engine is a smooth as silk.. This build I have adjustables in it so I need to make the tool or a way to hold them when they're out ..?

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by alchemy

Not a lot of experience doing it, but I had always understood it's bad to screw the adjusters outward. They won't have as tight of interference on the threads then. Do you guys run into this?

Do you guys ever use any locking fluid in the adjusters after they have a "final" adjustment? I can see it would be a bear to keep them clean and lube-free while all the assembly is happening, and impossible to clean again once in the engine.

At times I will use a locking fluid it depends on the application. When i decide to do it that way I first remove the adjuster clean everything so no assembly lube is present apply the locking fluid and set the needed adjustment. The fluid takes a while to set so theres ample time for the final adjustments. Since i already know the assembly height prior to adjusting the height on the lifter the slight additional time needed for the locking fluid is slight. The added benefit will last a life time the adjuster can be moved in the future when needed for adjustment but it will be very tight. In other words been there done that.
Ronnieroadster

[GOSFAST]

The info I'm putting here today is more-or-less a "tip" about using the original Johnson tappets from Topline-Automotive, just got off the phone with Dave and learned something even I wasn't aware of until just recently??

The adjusting nuts are mfd with a "crown" on the tops of these Johnsons, Dave explained it was sort of a quick way to determine whether or not it's their lifters? According to him the "offshore" pieces are perfectly "flat". Being "flat" they cannot work correctly!

I suspected this just earlier today and called to confirm. It isn't something that would have ever affected any of the builds we've ever done in the past or today!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. On a side note, the demand for these lifters is still so strong Dave also let me know they are running off 50,000 lifters this very week. I consider that to be excellent news at least in my eyes!!

[Bored&Stroked]

Hey Gary - is he saying there is a crown on the top of the actual adjusting nut? Or a crown on the bottom of the lifter? I don't see any reason that a crown on the nut is needed, but I definitely understand why a taper/crown on the BOTTOM of the lifter is needed.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Hey Gary - is he saying there is a crown on the top of the actual adjusting nut? Or a crown on the bottom of the lifter? I don't see any reason that a crown on the nut is needed, but I definitely understand why a taper/crown on the BOTTOM of the lifter is needed.

I'm curious about this as well. Why would a crown be needed to make contact with the bottom of the valve stem?

I have original Johnson's refurbished by the later Ron Furtado and a few sets by JWL. If I recall, the tops of the screw heads are perfectly flat.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Hey Gary - is he saying there is a crown on the top of the actual adjusting nut? Or a crown on the bottom of the lifter? I don't see any reason that a crown on the nut is needed, but I definitely understand why a taper/crown on the BOTTOM of the lifter is needed.

Hi Dale, yes, on the top, and once I spotted this and thought about it, even before I called Dave at "Topline", I knew it MUST have that crown in order to work the way it is designed now! There's a few reasons why, one being due to the spring pressures involved, but there's another one that's more important. Before I expand on this one I'll be doing some further checking tomorrow and I'll come back with more info!

If you had the opportunity to "probe" a block on a "CNC" you'd have the answer fairly quick!

It has to do with the very same reason why it's bad practice to anchor the guides "solid" in the guide bores, I've been asked many time over the years to do this procedure, I flat out refused. I had reservations about doing that procedure over 35 years ago? Never did a single one.

If you take a step back and compare this entire issue but substitute a Chevy using a flat-tappet cam and a roller cam instead of a Flathead you may realize why that "crown" is absolutely necessary on the TOP of the adjusting nuts on the Flatheads. Like I stated above, I was 100% certain that this "crown" was an engineering design and not a "flaw", this is when I decided to call! I was right on-the-money!

I'll also expand more on this tomorrow!

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

I'm curious about this as well. Why would a crown be needed to make contact with the bottom of the valve stem?
I have original Johnson's refurbished by the later Ron Furtado and a few sets by JWL. If I recall, the tops of the screw heads are perfectly flat.

Hi Tim, knowing all that I learned today from my brief discussion with Dave at "Topline" I would never risk using a "flat" adjusting nut on any Flatheads we build here. Unknowingly we never have anyway. Every build I've ever done here got new lifters and ALL were Johnson's, which means they were all "correct"! I presently have over 200 brand new 2032 tappets on the shelf, not a single piece is "flat", not on the bottoms OR on the tops!!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Like I said above here, I will have more tomorrow? I'm also a bit curious between then and now to see if anyone here comes up with a viable reason after giving it some thought?

[Pete]

"According to him the "offshore" pieces are perfectly "flat". Being "flat" they cannot work correctly!"

What a crock that is. I have 2 sets of early hollow Johnsons in here for reconditioning and the screws were crowned, they are also HAMMERED FLAT.
Brand new, they will hammer flat in one dyno pull in a race engine.
The reason they have gotten away with this crap is, almost no one pulls the manifold and checks the valve clearances after a flathead is initially fired up.
JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T APPLY TO YOU.
The screws should be flat.

[Pete]

Oh boy, I bet this thread gets deleted......LOL

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Pete

"According to him the "offshore" pieces are perfectly "flat". Being "flat" they cannot work correctly!"

What a crock that is. I have 2 sets of early hollow Johnsons in here for reconditioning and the screws were crowned, they are also HAMMERED FLAT.
Brand new, they will hammer flat in one dyno pull in a race engine.
The reason they have gotten away with this crap is, almost no one pulls the manifold and checks the valve clearances after a flathead is initially fired up.
JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T APPLY TO YOU.
The screws should be flat.

I thought the same thing, Pete. Seems to me the crown will wear down and eventually open up the lash.

[Ronnieroadster]

A crown on the adjuster wow. Did Ford do that on the original stock lifters? Doing that to differentiate from the off shore copies seems like a strange way to go about doing it.
Ronnieroadster

[Ronnieroadster]

GOSFAST SAID
It has to do with the very same reason why it's bad practice to anchor the guides "solid" in the guide bores, I've been asked many time over the years to do this procedure, I flat out refused. I had reservations about doing that procedure over 35 years ago? Never did a single one.

REALLY? Many of us serious and EXTREMELY long time Flathead builders have always locked the guides in the block bores myself been doing it for well over 30 years and counting. Now were going to learn why its not a good idea SERIOUSLY? Boy one thing I do know after pulling hundreds of flatheads apart with lots of miles on them for a rebuild for the guides are always stuck in the block bores. And for some reason these high mileage guides are still usable showing very little wear not to mention the lifters also look excellent and oh yea so dose the cam lobes now Im confused!
Ronnieroadster

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Pete

Oh boy, I bet this thread gets deleted......LOL

Pete were going to be taught how it should be done lets see if we can learn anything. LOL

[Scotty's 52 F3]

I'm an experienced mechanic but, new to Flathead Fords so I REALLY appreciate ALL the tips, advice and suggestions you guys with years of experience have to offer.

Please keep them coming. Even when you guys agree to disagree, I still enthusiastically read all of the posts. Even the conflicting opinions are educational.....to me anyway. Thanks for sharing the knowledge.

[glennpm]

Hi Gary,


I'm very interested in this, "I also may have a better method than using the holes drilled through the bottoms of lifter bores to keep them from turning while adjusting the screws, we'll see how that pans out?" I just adjusted my lifters with the tool and it was one of the most miserable things ever on any motor!


Thanks,
Glenn

[Bored&Stroked]

I don't like how loose the stock guides fit the guide bores - so I tighten them up.

There are a couple reasons I do this is: So that my initial sealing is exactly what I want it to be, so the guides can't "rock" around and allow the valve to change it's alignment with the seat and for better heat transfer on the exhaust side. The last reason is that on race style engines I profile the top of the guide during the porting process, so it needs to "stay in place" to match the porting profile.

So - I'm with Pete and Ron on this particular aspect of building.

All in all, opinions and debate are a good thing -- cats can be skinned lots of ways . . . especially flathead cats! LOL

[Tim Ayers]

This is interesting. What causes them to get "locked in" from use? Is it the carbon and other misc gunk? There have been some that need a real BFH to break them free.

What are you race guys doing to lock them in place during a build? A Locktite-type product, knurling, or some other method?

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by alchemy

Not a lot of experience doing it, but I had always understood it's bad to screw the adjusters outward. They won't have as tight of interference on the threads then. Do you guys run into this?

Do you guys ever use any locking fluid in the adjusters after they have a "final" adjustment? I can see it would be a bear to keep them clean and lube-free while all the assembly is happening, and impossible to clean again once in the engine.

There can be a lot of issues with adjustable lifters . . . with many used ones having adjusters that are too loose (from being used/adjusted many times). One reason I use longer valves is so that when I'm running a big camshaft (which will then have a smaller diameter base circle), I don't end up needing a "longer lifter" to fill the gap.

With a big cam, adjustables and stock length valves (and no lash caps), you have to "fill the gap" by backing the adjusters way out - which tends to reduce the number of threads in the "interference fit" - which tends to cause the adjusters to be loose and then back-off. This is why the lash adjustment keeps growing . . . and you start hearing lifter noise. This is also why Ford's original design (non-adjustables) works really well . . . there is nothing to "loosen up" later on . . .

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

This is interesting. What causes them to get "locked in" from use? Is it the carbon and other misc gunk? There have been some that need a real BFH to break them free.

What are you race guys doing to lock them in place during a build? A Locktite-type product, knurling, or some other method?

I've seen everything from copper plating the guides (to increase the OD just a bit), to custom guides (aluminum, bronze, etc), to a 'glue' process like epoxy/locktite, to knurling, etc..

It kind of depends on the builder, the intentions of the build, the amount of porting/profiling being done on the back of the intake port (really bad trough at the back of the guide - against the port wall), etc..

The exhaust side tends to get locked in by carbon - but that doesn't mean the original fitment was good - that it was nice and tight to transfer heat to the water jackets (which is really important for valve life). Or that the valve had to "bounce around to find center" - before the guide was carboned in . . . which adds wear to the sealing surfaces.

[Ronnieroadster]

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Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

This is interesting. What causes them to get "locked in" from use? Is it the carbon and other misc gunk? There have been some that need a real BFH to break them free.

What are you race guys doing to lock them in place during a build? A Locktite-type product, knurling, or some other method?

Tim when I do the locked in place guides I add a slight knurl to the them this will lock them nicely. As Dale wrote its an important aspect to getting the valve exactly in a permanent location in relation ship to the valve seat and adds to the sealing of the valve pocket in relation ship to the lifter chamber. This helps eliminate an internal engine vacuum leak and oil being sucked into the port reducing the octane rating of the gas some and causing a reduction in economy and performance. With a guide thats allowed to move around the valve is always searching for that perfect center against the valve seat.
Ronnieroadster

[Pete]

In the past, I have copper plated original guides and then installed Winona bronze inserts but this leaves no material on the top of the guide for contouring to the port for flow improvement. Knurling with glue would achieve the same results as plating.
For the last 40 years I have been making bronze guides from bar stock. I leave a half inch extra on top to contour to the port. I install the guides with .001 press and glue.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Tim when I do the locked in place guides I add a slight knurl to the them this will lock them nicely. As Dale wrote its an important aspect to getting the valve exactly in a permanent location in relation ship to the valve seat and adds to the sealing of the valve pocket in relation ship to the lifter chamber. This helps eliminate an internal engine vacuum leak and oil being sucked into the port reducing the octane rating of the gas some and causing a reduction in economy and performance. With a guide thats allowed to move around the valve is always searching for that perfect center against the valve seat.
Ronnieroadster

Interesting, Ron. Love threads like this. Always learning something...

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Pete

In the past, I have copper plated original guides and then installed Winona bronze inserts but this leaves no material on the top of the guide for contouring to the port for flow improvement. Knurling with glue would achieve the same results as plating.
For the last 40 years I have been making bronze guides from bar stock. I leave a half inch extra on top to contour to the port. I install the guides with .001 press and glue.

Interesting, Pete. So I guess this may be an obvious question, but I'd assume you don't need to use a insert if the entire guide is made from bronze.

Do you knurl the valve opening/hole in the guide or just run it tight?

I'm also assuming bronze guide would wear better than a cast iron stock-type.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Interesting, Ron. Love threads like this. Always learning something...

The nice thing about threads like this Tim is your learning form guys who actually use the product we speak of and do this stuff pretty much full time. Not like some builder who spends most of the time on chevy, honda, and toyota engine rebuilds.
Ronnieroadster

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Interesting, Pete. So I guess this may be an obvious question, but I'd assume you don't need to use a insert if the entire guide is made from bronze.

Do you knurl the valve opening/hole in the guide or just run it tight?

I'm also assuming bronze guide would wear better than a cast iron stock-type.

No inserts with solid bronze guides.
No knurling. Fit at .002.
A set of bronze guides will run a whole season of races. (10 full programs, including hot laps, timing in, dash, heat and 30 lap main)

As a side note, cast iron guides have very good wear properties if chrome stem valves are used. Very poor heat dissipating properties though.

[35fordtn]

I’m reading this thread to learn the varying thoughts, as I am young and the knowledge shared should be soaked up! Question, a local flathead guru here uses solid bronze guides knurled and driven into place. I get the pint and benefits of that, but he also shortens the guides from stock on the bottom end and only has roughly .250” of guides below the retainer. What’s the benefit to that?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 35fordtn

I’m reading this thread to learn the varying thoughts, as I am young and the knowledge shared should be soaked up! Question, a local flathead guru here uses solid bronze guides knurled and driven into place. I get the pint and benefits of that, but he also shortens the guides from stock on the bottom end and only has roughly .250” of guides below the retainer. What’s the benefit to that?

For one thing, it is cheaper. For 16 guides he will probably use 14 inches less material. Bronze bar stock is not cheap.
On the other hand, the shorter the guide, the faster it and the valve stem wear.
The shorter the guide, the slower the heat transfer away from the valve also.

[Tim Ayers]

I never thought about the valve not hitting true center unless the guide is set. Makes sense now. Curious how you find that dimension before locking the guide into place.

[KiWinUS]

Lock guide & then final cut seat is how I do that process.
Cheers

[flatheadmurre]

The guide must be centered withing the clearance of the valvestem to guide...there are some margins there...
As long as guide to bore is less then guide to stem...
With a "modern" engine the rockerarm forces the valve sideways in the guide to...

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Lock guide & then final cut seat is how I do that process.
Cheers

Tony:

With your method, the guide is acting as a pilot for cutting the seat?

[GOSFAST]

Heads up guys, my intention here is NOT to "redesign the wheel", it's to make some of the existing procedures that most of us have become accustomed to on the Flatheads a bit easier accomplish!

Here's a short list of items I'm trying to make easier!

1-Adjusting the valves (I'm still referring to new builds here) without the headache of reaching under the manifold area to get all 16 done. The method I started this post about recently, "on the bench", really works fine for me. I can "hit" the target lash number within a "thou or two" WITHOUT having to hold the lifters and turn the adjusting nuts inside the unit. I will "dial-in" the necessary numbers during the final assembly. This ENTIRE procedure now should take us about an "hour and a half", two at the most, to get ALL 16 valves assembled AND lashed??

2-Holding the lifters from turning even with the bores drilled is still no "fun", this is even mentioned above here by "glennpm", I'm in total agreement with him! I am still working on this here?

3-Dale addressed this above, working with ANY small-base cams has always posed an issue for me from years back. We began using the lash caps to get past this one. They work flawlessly, BUT, on the final assembling it is also a "headache" getting the locks AND the lash caps in place together! I have 2 of Tony's cams here now, both have lash caps. I have no issue with using the caps long-term, just during the assembling! On the "flip" side using Chevy valves here to address this small-base, it creates just another one that's worse (in my opinion) than getting the lash caps installed. it ALTERS the install spring height dimensions drastically? I know from many past posts up here this is a "major" one not a "minor one. I know this as well also due the number of guides we've sold with the adjustable spring seat registers! This entire "dilemma" is a really simple "fix", as of today we will be ordering new Ferrea valves to work with the small-base cams, we are adding .080" to the OEM lengths, but placing the keeper grooves in the same location as the OEM valves. This solves the small-base-cam/longer valve "dilemma"! Simple fix on this one!

4-I've been working on one issue for a about 2 years now, just don't have enough time to dedicate to this one. I've already spoke to Paul at "Topline" about it and for what I would need from him is "no problem" he claims? It is a hydraulic lifter setup, this one MAY fall under the "redesigning the wheel" category?? If you think about this seriously for a moment, it would solve a whole bunch of issues that are now present. No hole-drilling the lifter bores, no adjustment nuts on the lifters to contend with, not now OR down the road later, no possible lifter "ticking" noises ever!

Now, to address a couple other items mentioned above here, I have no problem with "pressed guides" (no matter the method), I have absolutely no problem with 1-pc (solid) "bronze guides" other than the cost (I can only imagine that here)? You would be surprised what you'd find in these blocks if you had the opportunity to "probe" one?? They're "all-over-the-place" so to speak!

One other item I'll mention here quickly, it's been discussed up here most recently, is the issue with "various" valve heights BELOW the original numbers AFTER grinding/cutting new valve seats. I've worked with a high number of Flathead over some 45/50 years and have FINALLY come to the conclusion from this day forward EVERY unit through the door here will now get 16 new inserts for the valves, there'll be no exceptions it will be "built-in" the pricing. This will all but "guarantee" a much better finished assembly!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Back to the "crown" on the adjusting nuts for a moment, we don't make the lifters and I was just as surprised to find this out as many up here were. It is something I never bothered to check or look further into, it has NEVER affected any build we've ever done, and contrary to that "crown" wearing-down, I have never found it in all my experiences. The ride in my signature has about 40,000 miles on it now, 155 HP/265 TQ and is as quiet today as the day we dynoed it. It probably ended up somewhere around 170/175 HP after the tri-power carb/intake change. We dynoed with a single 4 brl Holley. Clive at Stromberg gave him the little bit of extra HP!!

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Tony:

With your method, the guide is acting as a pilot for cutting the seat?

Correct Tim. Just like a OHV cylinder head.

[glennpm]

Hi,


Regarding, "Holding the lifters from turning even with the bores drilled is still no "fun", this is even mentioned above here by "glennpm", I'm in total agreement with him! I am still working on this here?"

During my adjustment struggle with an assembled motor and no drill holes, I found a solution for the last three lifters that I struggled with. Wish I knew to tell the short block assembler to drill the holes!

After just a few hundred miles, I decided to check the clearances. I have an ISKY Max 1 cam and Johnson lifters. All of the clearances except one were over the required 0.014" that I needed. I ran through all of them and after struggling with about three, went through another rotation, rechecking and then working on the problem ones. I have adjusted many solid lifter motors and these on the Flathead were the worst ever for me. Access in the 32 added to the fun! Very hard to get a feel for how much rotation was being made and with the locking fluid, tough to move.

I found that the Johnson tool works fairly well when adjusting such that the lever to the adjacent valve is rotating into it rather than away from it when turning the adjustment nut. I used a couple of pry levers and a large screwdriver to push between the lifter being adjusted and the Johnson tool and thin wrenches. I noticed that especially when the tool was rotating away from the adjacent valve spring, that the ramp on the formed tool was allowing my levers and screwdriver to ride up and away from the down force I needed. I decided cut the ramps off with my Dremel and it worked well allowing me to get the last few stubborn lifters adjusted. In one of my pictures you can see one of the tools of the set with the ramp removed and the other intact. I cut that one off too.


Glenn

[35fordtn]

Just Curious, why don't you use stock Non adjustable lifters? I can readily understand that a normal hobbyist without a valve grinder, lathe or mill, etc would much prefer adjustables, but for the engine builder why wouldn't you use the stock lifters? Some of my cars have adjustables and some stock. My 1940 after 4200 miles the lash is within .002" of where it was when I did the valve Job and it has non adjustables.

[glennpm]

Hi Gary,


Wondering if you've come up with a better way to make the adjustments for a built motor with adjustable lifters?


"1-Adjusting the valves (I'm still referring to new builds here) without the headache of reaching under the manifold area to get all 16 done. The method I started this post about recently, "on the bench", really works fine for me. I can "hit" the target lash number within a "thou or two" WITHOUT having to hold the lifters and turn the adjusting nuts inside the unit. I will "dial-in" the necessary numbers during the final assembly. This ENTIRE procedure now should take us about an "hour and a half", two at the most, to get ALL 16 valves assembled AND lashed??

2-Holding the lifters from turning even with the bores drilled is still no "fun", this is even mentioned above here by "glennpm", I'm in total agreement with him! I am still working on this here?"


Thanks,
Glenn

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Hi Gary,


Wondering if you've come up with a better way to make the adjustments for a built motor with adjustable lifters?


"1-Adjusting the valves (I'm still referring to new builds here) without the headache of reaching under the manifold area to get all 16 done. The method I started this post about recently, "on the bench", really works fine for me. I can "hit" the target lash number within a "thou or two" WITHOUT having to hold the lifters and turn the adjusting nuts inside the unit. I will "dial-in" the necessary numbers during the final assembly. This ENTIRE procedure now should take us about an "hour and a half", two at the most, to get ALL 16 valves assembled AND lashed??

2-Holding the lifters from turning even with the bores drilled is still no "fun", this is even mentioned above here by "glennpm", I'm in total agreement with him! I am still working on this here?"


Thanks,
Glenn

Hi Glenn, no answer yet, it's not going to be a "simple" setup to get done.

Due to our workload with my race guys (and some personal issues) I just don't have time to devote to the lifter adjusting issue on these Flatties.

This doesn't mean I've given up, just won't be for a while!

(Add) One major change over here I will not be building any Flatheads any longer with "small-base" cams, much too involved for me. This decision is after the last 2 forum member's builds recently here with these type cams!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. There's another issue I've wanted to "conquer" for a while now, even chatted with my friend Paul at Topline. I wanted to do a hyd-lifter Flathead (8BA) and talked with him about the lifters. It is doable, but it's one more item I just can't spare the time I need to work it out! It would have used a highly modified SBC lifter and bushed lifter bores! I'm told they can do the cams also for a hyd-lifter setup!

[glennpm]

Thanks Gary for the update and taking the time to do it!

The SBC change is sure not for me!

Thanks,
Glenn

[35fordtn]

Gary, see my above question.. why not just use non adjustable lifters like ford did?? They are lighter and won’t loosen or loose adjustment. I understand the appeal for the use of adjustables to the average consumer, but guys that have the proper equipment and tools it would seem like stock lifters would be better and easier?

[big job]

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Originally Posted by 35fordtn

Gary, see my above question.. why not just use non adjustable lifters like ford did?? They are lighter and won’t loosen or loose adjustment. I understand the appeal for the use of adjustables to the average consumer, but guys that have the proper equipment and tools it would seem like stock lifters would be better and easier?

I totally agree: 50 yrs ago we used adjustable 8N lifters local Ford dealer and
my friend parts guy, gave me a genuine Ford lifter tool that has two pins
its one piece, not these two piece china stuff knuckle buster junk. We all know
the time it takes even for adjustable's never mind solids. So we ask how in the
world is this done pumping 5,000 engines a day, but yes many, many, people
on the line. The block is now fresh machined sitting up on its bell housing, no
crank yet, but cam installed, with lifters. The cam is turned by hand to the heal you can see it. All valve seats have been machined ground to the tenths,
to the seats and to the lifters on heal- (down) Hard part for me without pic,
the jig is; picture a male and female cone the male goes on the seat its stem goes into the guide precision hole through this jig with a rod to dial indicator: Now indicator is zeroed out. Now put the valve in the female jig. Mic the total length of the valve still in jig. OH I forgot, mic the total length of the first jig to the length of the valve and grind stem as necessary or face valve for say .014 or .012 . I hope this is understandable. I do this on a surface plate. If you or a friend has a lathe this is 101 freshman high school. Aluminum brass or even delvan is fine. Find 'Tubale Cane your Utube shop teacher' on 'what is it' series on Utube couple months ago. He showed one, only two guessed what it is. Also John Edwards "fiat nuzt" on utube sells these..sam

[JSeery]

Looks like John died in 2017:

John Gregory Edwards, 69, passed away on Christmas day 2017 of a massive heart attack. He opened his first auto repair shop, Automobili Prova, when he was in his early 20s. He started teaching with the ROP program in 1984 but decided to concentrate on writing books in 2000. His latest endeavor was Costa Mesa R & D in Costa Mesa CA, which he was still operating at the time of his death. John was a master machinist who will be missed not only by his family but by his customers as well.

[AnotherDay2020]

Thats good advice and info. Where would I source Johnson Hollow Adjustable Radius
Non-Rotating lifters They would be grooved or I could that part myself but the bottom needs to have radius as opposed to flat bottom.

Thanks for the adjusting info,
Mark " Another Day"

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by AnotherDay2020

Thats good advice and info. Where would I source Johnson Hollow Adjustable Radius
Non-Rotating lifters They would be grooved or I could that part myself but the bottom needs to have radius as opposed to flat bottom.

Thanks for the adjusting info,
Mark " Another Day"

For like a Weber or Isky radius lifter cam? From what I gather, one uses a 1" radius and the other 2". I forget which one uses which.

Cam grinder @Pete1 here can do the Isky radius on your adjustable lifters.

[Bored&Stroked]

I've never heard that Pete1 would put the 404A radius on an adjustable - but it may be possible. I've had him do some stock steel ones for me for my 505A cam. Of course there is more to it than the radius, you also have to have the tool to drill the locking wire holes in the lifter bores and you have to install the lock wires. Kind of a pain in the butt, but the 404A is a really good racing cam.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I've never heard that Pete1 would put the 404A radius on an adjustable - but it may be possible. I've had him do some stock steel ones for me for my 505A cam. Of course there is more to it than the radius, you also have to have the tool to drill the locking wire holes in the lifter bores and you have to install the lock wires. Kind of a pain in the butt, but the 404A is a really good racing cam.

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall him saying he could, but prefers stock lifters due to weight. Hopefully Pete will chime in.

[Pete]

It is possible to machine the slot in adjustable lifters but I would not do it because they are cast iron and I am sure they would not last one lap.
Isky lifters are 2 inch radius.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Pete

It is possible to machine the slot in adjustable lifters but I would not do it because they are cast iron and I am sure they would not last one lap.
Isky lifters are 2 inch radius.

Ah. Thanks, Pete. I guess I was wrong. Thanks for clarifying.

[glennpm]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Regarding, "Holding the lifters from turning even with the bores drilled is still no "fun", this is even mentioned above here by "glennpm", I'm in total agreement with him! I am still working on this here?"

I found that the Johnson tool works fairly well when adjusting such that the lever to the adjacent valve is rotating into it rather than away from it when turning the adjustment nut. I used a couple of pry levers and a large screwdriver to push between the lifter being adjusted and the Johnson tool and thin wrenches. I noticed that especially when the tool was rotating away from the adjacent valve spring, that the ramp on the formed tool was allowing my levers and screwdriver to ride up and away from the down force I needed. I decided cut the ramps off with my Dremel and it worked well allowing me to get the last few stubborn lifters adjusted. In one of my pictures you can see one of the tools of the set with the ramp removed and the other intact. I cut that one off too.
Glenn

A couple of more "pin tools" that I made for holding the lifter barrels when making adjustments