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Old 05-22-2017, 08:24 PM   #221
Tod
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Default Re: New block

Made some pretty good progress this evening after supper. Most of the outside of the driver's side bank is finished as well as the front face and much of the rear. I messed a bit with the Siamese cylinders on one side to see what that might look like. The idea in my head will probably work. As the OD of the cylinder wall moves towards the bottom of the water jacket, I plan on stepping it down a couple of times. I will probably cut a rectangular window at 2 places after the uppermost diameter to allow as much coolant flow as possible. I will let it flow at the very bottom also so that nothing gets accumulated in any corners.

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Old 05-22-2017, 11:05 PM   #222
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Hey Tod - I like the way you're thinking it through. Having partial flow between the cylinders is probably a good idea - versus a "full siamese" top-to-bottom. I really like the idea of a 3.5" bore. With a 4 3/8" stroke crank, that would give us a 336 cubic inch flathead! With solid improvements in both intake and exhaust port designs - we'd have enough air flow to support the cubic inches . . . that would be really fun!

Keep up the good work and let me know if I can help you in any way!

Dale
Now THAT would lower sales resistance! I have a block ready to bore and finish. I would set it aside and spend the $ to get another 100 CI plus a fresh casting.
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Old 05-22-2017, 11:21 PM   #223
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Lots of good stuff being posted here! I am plodding along on the design. It is moving along as I have time.

Given that my block may be non-sanctioned by most bodies I am thinking of making the underside metal wall, where the exhaust manifold flanges bolt, a straight flat surface from front to rear. Since it won't help or hurt sanctioning I figured it would add a little coolant capacity and straighten out the flow a little. Opinions?
Tod
How much longer can the ol' boys that run sanctioning bodies refuse to accept new, aftermarket blocks? It gets harder and harder to find good original blocks. If Tod's block matches all the critical dimensions of an original drawing, what difference would it really make? A winning race engine is a far cry from a stocker as it is now. Ports are filled and reshaped. Bigger valves are installed. Main caps are replaced or reinforced. Oiling systems are totally reworked. And the list goes on. I'd guess costs would be close, whether OEM or new, by the time the engine hits the track.
So why outlaw a new block like Tod's? Old time racers have their stash of (hopefully) good old blocks. But the new young guy looking to join the fun, not so much. Are the powers that be trying to keep the new guy out?!
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:40 AM   #224
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Default Re: New block

I don't think it is a question of trying to keep the new guy out, rather it is a rule based on not tarnishing what has been done in the past with an OEM block. As you say, not much resembles original in a race engine but if the new racers are to be on the same ball field they shouldn't have the advantage of a "corked bat".
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:56 AM   #225
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I don't think it is a question of trying to keep the new guy out, rather it is a rule based on not tarnishing what has been done in the past with an OEM block. As you say, not much resembles original in a race engine but if the new racers are to be on the same ball field they shouldn't have the advantage of a "corked bat".
IMHO; It would be real easy for the land speed organizations to create some new classes as applicable to accommodate the "new flathead" motors.
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Old 05-23-2017, 06:57 AM   #226
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Default Re: New block

Land Speed Racing: They would have to create a new class - not any different than having a different class for OHV conversions (like the Ardun). If you didn't do this, then the 'new block' could easily wipe out decades of hard earned records - with a new and uneven playing field. Given the history of places like Bonneville, they're very sensitive to all those who have come before the newest guy (as they should be).

Also, imagine how far some would take it - there would be new blocks that are MUCH more competitive in many different classes - would come down to cubic money (and it is already expensive to do any sort of racing).
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Old 05-23-2017, 08:53 AM   #227
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I don't think it is a question of trying to keep the new guy out, rather it is a rule based on not tarnishing what has been done in the past with an OEM block. As you say, not much resembles original in a race engine but if the new racers are to be on the same ball field they shouldn't have the advantage of a "corked bat".
Good point, but maybe sanctioning bodies could adopt the "asterisk" rule like in other sports, even other forms of auto racing. Any record set with Tod's block gets an asterisk* with a footnote so stating. Things change as time goes on, otherwise the world speed record may still be held by a Roman chariot!
As far as "not tarnishing what has been done in the past with an OEM block", that has already happened! Back in the '50's and '60's, how many racers had access to a flow bench? Or epoxy to reshape the ports? Or computer modeling of airflow, etc.? Or modern oils? Or electronic ignition? Or aftermarket H-beam rods? Modern technology has always been creeping in as it becomes available. A factory spec aftermarket block would really only add durability to the equation, allowing long time racers the chance to try out those neat tricks they've had in the back of their minds for decades!
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:44 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
Land Speed Racing: They would have to create a new class - not any different than having a different class for OHV conversions (like the Ardun). If you didn't do this, then the 'new block' could easily wipe out decades of hard earned records - with a new and uneven playing field. Given the history of places like Bonneville, they're very sensitive to all those who have come before the newest guy (as they should be).

Also, imagine how far some would take it - there would be new blocks that are MUCH more competitive in many different classes - would come down to cubic money (and it is already expensive to do any sort of racing).
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Good point, but maybe sanctioning bodies could adopt the "asterisk" rule like in other sports, even other forms of auto racing. Any record set with Tod's block gets an asterisk* with a footnote so stating. Things change as time goes on, otherwise the world speed record may still be held by a Roman chariot!
As far as "not tarnishing what has been done in the past with an OEM block", that has already happened! Back in the '50's and '60's, how many racers had access to a flow bench? Or epoxy to reshape the ports? Or computer modeling of airflow, etc.? Or modern oils? Or electronic ignition? Or aftermarket H-beam rods? Modern technology has always been creeping in as it becomes available. A factory spec aftermarket block would really only add durability to the equation, allowing long time racers the chance to try out those neat tricks they've had in the back of their minds for decades!
I agree on all the above. The new flathead motors that Tod is designing & manufacturing could be put in their own "new flathead" classes however applicable ie: naturally aspirated, blown, turbo charged ect. They could start fresh & the scoring be kept separate from the original " antique" classes. Bill
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:01 PM   #229
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Default Re: New block

Do small block chevies get a asterisk when they use a Dart block with a relocated camshaft and SB2 canted valve cylinder heads?
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:24 PM   #230
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Do small block chevies get a asterisk when they use a Dart block with a relocated camshaft and SB2 canted valve cylinder heads?

In the SCTA all "normal" engine classes are broken up by displacement only. You can build it from scratch if you would like, and some have. Only the few vintage classes require original production blocks.

That being said I don't think that the demand from the landracing community is what can make this a successful project. I think it will be driven by the restoration and vintage hot rod crowd.

Personally I would love to see this happen just for the good of the flathead ford in general. I have done a fair amount of CMM work on 8BA, 59A, & 41 Merc blocks for my racing developments and if I can offer any info I would be glad to help.

Andy
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:02 PM   #231
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Default Re: New block

Need I warn, design solely on performance would doom the project. That mistake has already been made. Clearly, some improvements can be made that are not visible, but a 100% original casting holds the greatest promise. I'd not like to see performance be the priority.
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:24 PM   #232
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Default Re: New block

The only way any new replacement flathead block would be allowed to go for a record is if a major rule update was considered by the SCTA. And if such a rule was allowed to be fair to those who run the original Ford blocks from 1953 and earlier it would have to be a new class for the replacement blocks.
Being a person who has set a XF class record at Bonneville using the original Ford flathead block a task thats not easy it took lots of trial and error to figure out how to make something so old hold toghter for such abuse. Allowing a new block into the class would not be fair in any way. Also the vintage engine guys in charge of the rules would never allow such a thing to take place.
However there's no problem running the new block in any class based on cubic inches only but it would not be very competitive its just not allowed in the XF class as we know it. Considering there's still plenty of original flathead blocks available the need for a new one for racing I feel is not really needed.
If someone wants a new flathead block to run in a racing class that allows such a thing the French flathead block hands down is presently the way to go its affordable and if tuned correctly durable enough to survive. At least that's the way I see it.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:41 AM   #233
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Default Re: New block

I just got my block, heads, and intake back from hot tank cleaning. I did that to see if there are any cracks in it and because I need to take dimensions on some cast features that are obviously different than the blue print. Needless to say, some cast features will be different now due to adding strength to the new design. For example, I am making the pan rail solid, making the webbing between the crank and cam journals 1/2" thick rather than 1/4, and increasing the diameter of the crank and cam journal walls. Over all, I will try to stay faithful to the look.

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Old 05-24-2017, 11:07 AM   #234
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Default Re: New block

Tod, It sounds like you can do this. Personally I am sure that flathead blocks are drying up, they tend to crack between the valves. I would think a call to guys like Ol' Ron, would be very informative. I'm just wondering just how long it will be before all us old Flathead guy's are gone, if the younger generation looses interest in old Flathead stuff? You should go for it if that's your desire. There's always naysayers. I think personally the Ford flathead will be around for at least another 20 years. Perhaps longer? Model A blocks are getting heard to come by also. Do you cast in iron? I never was found of aluminum engines, overheat them one time and most of the time there toast. JMHO
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:09 AM   #235
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While everybody seems to be concern with the potential power they can get out of the Block, I look at it for a different application. It would be nice to get a block that would provide exceptional power output, I don't think the Market for that kind of block would affect sales. As the original block can provide a reasonavle amoount of reliability in the 125/ 150 HP range, a new block would have it biggest sales potential if it could provide that at a lower cost. Having built a few street engines I find the 276 to be the most popular. At one time the stock 4" crank was available at a reasonable cost, that's not the case any more. Now the aftermarket Crank assys are available up to 304 ci at about the same price. This big an engine puts a strain on the intake system which just adds more costs. The average guy just wants a reasonably priced engine he can run it his street machine. Now adding extra material in the weak ares The builder caan have a 268 ci engine using all stick components except the pistons. Thus, he gets a stocl looking engine that really pulld the hills and properly tuned get great mileage, and this is where the market is. I just helped a frien on mine ger a stock 8RT running, came out of a school bus. Pulled the heads and freed up a few valves. put a new head gasket on the engine with 8BA heads and fired it up great oil pressure, runs cool on an engine stand, sold for 1200 bucks. Not many of these bargens left. And the finished product, wouldn't cost mich more tham rebuilding an old engine
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Old 05-24-2017, 07:21 PM   #236
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Default Re: New block

Ron if this new block could breathe well enough to provide even .75 hp per cube your 276" street engine would be over 200hp.

I would love to have 200 hp with the Flatty's nice fat torque curve in my little '41 Ford. Heck yes there is a huge untapped market for this block.
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Old 05-24-2017, 07:43 PM   #237
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Default Re: New block

I am amazed at the differences between the blue prints and the block I have. Nothing functional, just locations of webbing and some of the cast geometry. As I near having the externals of my model complete it will mean taking some creative license with some of the shapes. My departures from print and block will be in the direction of increasing strength.

I may be far enough along in a day or so to post a basic screen shot.

Tod
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Old 05-24-2017, 07:55 PM   #238
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Default Re: New block

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I am amazed at the differences between the blue prints and the block I have. Nothing functional, just locations of webbing and some of the cast geometry. As I near having the externals of my model complete it will mean taking some creative license with some of the shapes. My departures from print and block will be in the direction of increasing strength.

I may be far enough along in a day or so to post a basic screen shot.

Tod
Awesome, Tod. Looking forward to see what you've got so far.
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Old 05-24-2017, 08:17 PM   #239
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Default Re: New block

This may be a stupid question, but I noticed that the two water pumps I took off of the engine I have do not have openings corresponding to the two bottom water holes on the front of the block. One of the pumps had a hole but it was plugged with a "freeze plug" like plug. The other pump had no hole at all. Why are the two lower holes in the block if they aren't even used?

Tod
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Old 05-24-2017, 09:28 PM   #240
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Tod, I think they are there for cleaning the casting sand from the block. They serve no other purpose. Many have been fooled by them.
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