Engine Serial Numbers as VIN

[fordcragar]

Originally Posted by fordcragar

Years ago when I brought a car in from out out state, the Washington State Patrolman noted the VIN was the engine number. Then he told me to see if I could find a number on the frame, bring the car back in and they would change the VIN to that number. After that he said if I couldn't find a number anywhere, that they would assign a VIN number to the frame.

When I brought this car into the state, the VIN number on the engine was a number LB123XXX; which didn't look like any normal Model A VIN. Someone told me it was probably a remanufactured engine out of the Long Beach California plant. The people that I bought it from bought the car in the late 1930's.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I would use a temporary engine while I rebuild the original engine to reinstall.
If the original block is total junk, then the new block would get the same number as the junk block.

In all states altering any manufacturers identification number is a felony.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

In all states altering any manufacturers identification number is a felony.

Yup, does it keep people from doing it, no buts it's illegal.

Think about this, you buy a numbers matching car in a state that no longer requires a title. You spend years restoring the vehicle but unbeknownst to you the guy you bought the car from found the old title and sold it on ebay. The guy that bought the title used it to register a car he built. You finish the car jump through all the hoops to title it in your state only to find the number is already in use. Do you think the officials might look at you as trying to defraud them by trying to use a vin that is already in use?

How about this one. Someone gets into a car accident. The car is totaled. They buy the same make, model, and year car and swap out the vin tag. Legal or not? Who are they hurting by making the new car have the same vin as the damaged car.

[Barry B./ Ma.]

Originally Posted by harleynut

In Pennsylvania the VIN is on the title. I never have been asked to verify a VIN. I did notice that my VIN has been ground off the motor. Should I try to re stamp the # on the motor?

I would have a plate made to match the frame number and attach it to the pad on the motor as long as that is the true VIN on the title and frame. I see no harm in doing this as the number isn't being altered.

[Squally]

How common is it to not have an engine number? Ours doesn't have one.

[eagle]

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The Vin number stays with the CAR, not the engine. It gets murky with the model A because the Vin was originally derived from the engine. However, once the Vin is assigned to the VEHICLE, the engine number is just that, the engine number. It is not illegal to re stamp the engine, and was/is done routinely at rebuild shops. To help in recovery of a stolen vehicle, the Vin number should be stamped in several places on the vehicle.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Squally

How common is it to not have an engine number? Ours doesn't have one.

Not that unusual. Between Ford unrecorded production (which some surmise exists) and remanufactured blocks there are a fair number of non-numbered blocks around.

My own experience may be a guide. I originally had a RED painted replacement engine in my Model A. Sears Roebuck offered replacement engines are seen painted red and mine may or may not be original Ford production turned over to Sears as the number pad area is very obviously NOT been altered - the boss appears full thickness.

Another source of escaped engines may be Gordon-Smith Company (Bowling Green KY) who starting in the 1930s used surplus Ford engines to make gas engine air compressors using an ingenious aftermarket head. The one original GS Compressor I've seen had the same non-milled number pad. (GS sold the heads separately as a "kit" to make the nose of a Model A car into an air compressor - My GS compressor is made from a numbered Model B engine.)

And there was the Gleaner/Combine market where a lot of Ford 4 cylinder engines were used. IIRC most of these may be Ford "diamond" blocks? We don't have many gleaners/combines here in the northeast.

Reman blocks may or may not have had a previous Ford number removed, or *altered* or left as is.

Until car theft became a problem, or rather VID tracking became seen as a passable theft deterrent solution, a car VID wasn't nearly so important as having the keys or the registration plate paperwork in your possession.

Some view having a "blank" engine as a po$itive since for $160 one can buy the period correct number stamps and "make" a OEM "match" with the frame. Not that anyone could really tell otherwise with the body installed.

Joe K

[russcochiolo]

I have a Diamond B engine with no stamped numbers. The casting tag indicates 1936. Nothing in the paperwork matched, not even the license plate that was on the car. I discovered the BB numbers on the bell housing and a friendly Peace Officer accepted them. Now everything matches. Hallelujah! I have heard/read somewhere that BB blocks that were intended as replacements were not stamped. I don't know if that is accurate or not. I have stamped a number plate and attached it to the driver's side firewall to make it easy to see. The bell housing number can be seen from there, but it does take some close looking and I wanted to make it easy for the next inspector. It took a total of 8 months to jump through all the California hoops. It feels good to have it all done. It took another 8 months to get the YOM plates authorized. Gotta luv CA! Russ

[fixitphil]

Thanks for all the input guys. Very helpful.
As you probably guessed by now I'm in Visalia, CA.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by russcochiolo

I have a Diamond B engine with no stamped numbers. The casting tag indicates 1936. Nothing in the paperwork matched, not even the license plate that was on the car. I discovered the BB numbers on the bell housing and a friendly Peace Officer accepted them. Now everything matches. Hallelujah! I have heard/read somewhere that BB blocks that were intended as replacements were not stamped. I don't know if that is accurate or not. I have stamped a number plate and attached it to the driver's side firewall to make it easy to see. The bell housing number can be seen from there, but it does take some close looking and I wanted to make it easy for the next inspector. It took a total of 8 months to jump through all the California hoops. It feels good to have it all done. It took another 8 months to get the YOM plates authorized. Gotta luv CA! Russ

None of the B or BB engines were stamped at the factory although the cast pad was still on the engine. The numbers were stamped into the flywheel housing. There may have been a few exceptions if a state required an engine number.

Charlie Stephens

[Charlie Stephens]

You guys are lucky that I don't work for the DMV. If someone came in with a Model A that had a VIN tag in the "wrong" place, like on the firewall, I would call the tow truck and have it impounded. Next I would have a state employee pull the body and charge them for the labor. I wonder if there are others out there like me? As bad as this sounds think of the fact that it might result in a stolen car being returned to its rightful owner.

Charlie Stephens

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by fixitphil

Thanks for all the input guys. Very helpful.
As you probably guessed by now I'm in Visalia, CA.

Sometimes it helps to have that info in your profile, especially in cases like this where the laws vary from state to state. Good Luck

[ursus]

Originally Posted by Barry B./ Ma.

The engine number became the VIN when the engine was placed in the frame and that should always be the VIN for that car even if the engine has been replaced at least that's how I see it. I go by the frame number and that should be on the engine pad and if it isn't it should be restamped on the engine.

What happens if you have a frame number that is from a different year than the body style you have? It is possible to have a 1931 body on a 1928 frame. My first Model A was assembled from parts in the early 60's. When presented with a 1931 body on a 1928 frame powered by a 1930 numbered engine, the Oregon DMV looked up the only visible number in a binder they had and titled the car as a 1930. For some reason, they weren't interested in the frame number even though I told them that it didn't match. I doubt that would happen nowadays. That car is still running around, and a series of owners have added and subtracted parts with the result that it appears to be a 1930 Model-A until you start poking around.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by ursus

What happens if you have a frame number that is from a different year than the body style you have? It is possible to have a 1931 body on a 1928 frame. My first Model A was assembled from parts in the early 60's. When presented with a 1931 body on a 1928 frame powered by a 1930 numbered engine, the Oregon DMV looked up the only visible number in a binder they had and titled the car as a 1930. For some reason, they weren't interested in the frame number even though I told them that it didn't match. I doubt that would happen nowadays. That car is still running around, and a series of owners have added and subtracted parts with the result that it appears to be a 1930 Model-A until you start poking around.

My experience (Officer Judy above) would be they would take the easiest number to inspect and confirm. If the paperwork indicates an engine number - the engine number WILL be the number. If the paperwork indicates a frame number - they'll probably take your word - or ask to come back after you expose the number for their confirmation.

Come to think of it - that's where I am now with my Model A CC pickup. It is a March 1929 truck with a consistent frame number with (now) a 1930 engine. But the title shows this to be VID March 1929. The original red sears engine - sans number, it's a well worn virgin - is sitting waiting for re-build. And who knows where the original engine is?

It might be out there in someone's 1930 car? With its own identical VID taken from the engine?

As to other inconsistencies connected with a title search - you'll probably end up with a title showing all these other extraneous and possibly erroneous facts. But its only a title - what counts for sales/insurance/officialdom IS the number.

Most people interested in Model A don't let the details - or their mish-mash - hold them back.

Joe K

[eagle]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

You guys are lucky that I don't work for the DMV. If someone came in with a Model A that had a VIN tag in the "wrong" place, like on the firewall, I would call the tow truck and have it impounded. Next I would have a state employee pull the body and charge them for the labor. I wonder if there are others out there like me? As bad as this sounds think of the fact that it might result in a stolen car being returned to its rightful owner.

Charlie Stephens

The engine number is not the vin number, it is the number from which the original vin was derived. You can legally stamp the legal vin number anywhere you wish on a vehicle. The problem is when people just take it upon themselves to assign their own number, and proceed to represent it as a legally assigned vin.

[Mike V. Florida]

The number on the engine is not just a number on an engine. It is the location of the VIN. No way would you get away with removing the VIN tag on a modern car and stamp that number in another location. Same goes with the A.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by eagle

The Vin number stays with the CAR, not the engine. It gets murky with the model A because the Vin was originally derived from the engine. However, once the Vin is assigned to the VEHICLE, the engine number is just that, the engine number. It is not illegal to re stamp the engine, and was/is done routinely at rebuild shops. To help in recovery of a stolen vehicle, the Vin number should be stamped in several places on the vehicle.

Let's check that statement out,

Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 2321 whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, could be fined or imprisoned for up to ten years.

http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?tag=engine-restamping

Do it at your own peril!

[phonconn]

The frame was obviously the Vehicle Identification Number and when the chassis made it down the line to get an engine then the engine was then stamped to match the chassis number as most all Model A folks are aware. Move forward 10-15 years and many engine rebuilders just exchanged engines not giving any thought to the new engine number. I agree it is best to change the new engine number to match the old engine number and then you don't have to lift the body to show the frame VIN. In Missouri if the car is an in state car then you don't need to have the VIN verified BUT if it come from out of state then the VIN has to be verified by an inspection station and is called an ID/OD inspection. I just purchased a 28(May 1928 firewall stamped) but the engine and VIN are of the engine number which is a 29 serial number and many of the parts used in the restoration were 29 parts.
If I was changing engines today I would NOT grind off the old engine number BUT pound the numbers back into the block and restamp it with the correct old number on the old block taking pics to show the before and after and saving the old block as stated from other members in case there should ever be a problem. Driving the numbers back flush with the engine number pad will alleviate any future problems with possible fraud issues. It is easy enough to pound the numbers back into the pad and keep the * and A intact.
As an afterthought I have often thought of stamping the VIN onto the bottom of the frame on the underneath of the frame rail just in case someone needed to see a frame number. Why Ford ever put the frame number where it would be permanently covered up wasn't a very good idea and causes a lot of hassle if you have to lift a body to show the frame number.
Back in the day nobody was that concerned about matching numbers as it was only a $50 car but now with the value rising and theft of our cars happening more often I can see why officials have such stricter motor vehicle laws.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by phonconn

The frame was obviously the Vehicle Identification Number and when the chassis made it down the line to get an engine then the engine was then stamped to match the chassis number as most all Model A folks are aware. Move forward 10-15 years and many engine rebuilders just exchanged engines not giving any thought to the new engine number. I agree it is best to change the new engine number to match the old engine number and then you don't have to lift the body to show the frame VIN. In Missouri if the car is an in state car then you don't need to have the VIN verified BUT if it come from out of state then the VIN has to be verified by an inspection station and is called an ID/OD inspection. I just purchased a 28(May 1928 firewall stamped) but the engine and VIN are of the engine number which is a 29 serial number and many of the parts used in the restoration were 29 parts.
If I was changing engines today I would NOT grind off the old engine number BUT pound the numbers back into the block and restamp it with the correct old number on the old block taking pics to show the before and after and saving the old block as stated from other members in case there should ever be a problem. Driving the numbers back flush with the engine number pad will alleviate any future problems with possible fraud issues. It is easy enough to pound the numbers back into the pad and keep the * and A intact.
As an afterthought I have often thought of stamping the VIN onto the bottom of the frame on the underneath of the frame rail just in case someone needed to see a frame number. Why Ford ever put the frame number where it would be permanently covered up wasn't a very good idea and causes a lot of hassle if you have to lift a body to show the frame number.
Back in the day nobody was that concerned about matching numbers as it was only a $50 car but now with the value rising and theft of our cars happening more often I can see why officials have such stricter motor vehicle laws.

That is definitely a story I have never heard before and I have been into Model A's since 1962. It has always been my understanding that the engine was assigned a number when it passed final inspection. After it was installed in the chassis the chassis was stamped with the number on the engine. As far as messing with the VIN number in any way I wouldn't do it. Call you local DMV and get the paperwork straightened out right. If it was California they would probably want to put their own number on a plate on the door jam and another one on the frame.

Charlie Stephens

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by fixitphil

Thanks for all the input guys. Very helpful.
As you probably guessed by now I'm in Visalia, CA.

Read CA vehicle code 10751 and all the 10751 letter codes within it. Altering any manufacturers identification in CA is a felony. You can lose your car.