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02-16-2021, 06:37 PM | #1 |
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Model A Aircraft Kit
About 7 years ago (could be more, could be less) Hemmings had an article about plans that you could send away for to build a Model-A powered aircraft. Does anyone know the Volume, and Edition (i.e., year and month) of this article?
The A engine mounts in there backwards, and the prop attaches to the end of the crankshaft. |
02-16-2021, 06:47 PM | #2 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
If you search the internet for "Pietenpol Air Camper" you will come up with a lot and maybe who has the plans for building one. I know a friend just north of Charlotte that has the plane done, just needs to be covered. He is in poor health and will never finish it so it will probably be forsale
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02-16-2021, 07:18 PM | #3 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
i read the oil pan was finned to allow cooling
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02-16-2021, 07:50 PM | #4 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
[QUOTE=s.e.charles;1986329]i read the oil pan was finned to allow cooling[/QUOTE
Well, that may have been an option for the wealthy pilots of the day, but Bernard Pietenpol designed this plane to be a homebuilt for the average guy during the Great Depression. That tall radiator sitting on top of the cowl in front of the pilot surely could handle all the cooling needed. |
02-16-2021, 08:00 PM | #5 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
I wonder how many hours it took him to build the frame.
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02-16-2021, 08:00 PM | #6 | |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
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02-16-2021, 08:06 PM | #7 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
I built a pietenpol 40 yrs. ago. Sold it recently, To old to get in and out of it. Good flying airplane. Had the model A engine. Had the standard oil pan but I put a high compretion head on it.
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02-16-2021, 08:08 PM | #8 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
follows story number 4 from 40 Delux
Well, that may have been an option for the wealthy pilots of the day, but Bernard Pietenpol designed this plane to be a homebuilt for the average guy during the Great Depression. That tall radiator sitting on top of the cowl in front of the pilot surely could handle all the cooling needed.[/QUOTE] and would be good for the pilot on a cold day
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02-16-2021, 08:38 PM | #9 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Got one in the hangar next to me except they put a Corvair engine in it. Really nice airplane.
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02-17-2021, 08:09 AM | #10 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
A friend built one about 30 yrs or so ago and I helped him install a Continental C series engine. It took him several years to build it.
I wouldn't strap my fanny in one with the Model A engine. |
02-17-2021, 09:31 AM | #11 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Pietenpol airplanes are displayed at the T Museum in Richmond, Ind and also at the A museum at the Gilmore in Hickory Corners, Mi. Either location should have additional information.
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02-17-2021, 09:58 AM | #12 | |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
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Good for you! Home-builds are an impressive undertaking, and one with a model A engine, so much more so! |
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02-17-2021, 10:56 AM | #13 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
I dunno. For what it would cost to get a rebuilt and airworthy Model A engine, buy the kit and build it, why not just spend 20k on a nice used Cessna 150? Better resale, 2 seats, 100kts on a reliable continental engine. Not to mention an enclosed cabin and a windshield you can see through.
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02-17-2021, 12:07 PM | #14 | |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
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For some it's not about the destination...it's about the journey! |
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02-17-2021, 12:55 PM | #15 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
For the aero guys, I have a dual-plug Funk head off of a Ford Model-B powered Funk Model-B which made a reported 63 horsepower and had a 5 gallon oil capacity. The reason why the oil capacity was so great is because the engine was run in the inverted position where the crankshaft was in the upward location, and the spark plugs were in the lower location of the engine. This was done so the engine could spin a larger diameter propeller.
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02-17-2021, 01:22 PM | #16 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Interesting airplane but I cannot imagine a worse choice for a Powerplant. Heavy and underpowered. Liquid cooled. I didn't look to see what type of ignition they used. Yikes.
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02-17-2021, 02:23 PM | #17 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
The Pietenpol.
The commentary on this has been most interesting. I never knew such an aeroplane existed until 18 months ago when my friend sent me a picture of one from Osaka. Oshkosh gary you fool. I never knew why some aeroplane engines were inverted. I guess I had never thought about it. Thanks for enlightening me Brent in uh 10-uh-c. I believe Kawagumby too is correct in saying it’s the journey that some pilots enjoy and not the destination. Two questioned the choice of Model A engine. I too would prefer to sit behind an engine manufactured by a builder whose name appears on modern aero engines. And of course many get the pleasure from building their own aeroplane and that's commendable and understandable.
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02-17-2021, 02:28 PM | #18 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Ford Model A engine is ideal for these airplanes. One just has to rebuild the engine with more clearance for piston/bore and valve stem/guide as these engines are always "pulling" unlike a car. Single aircraft magneto ignition off the crankshaft with high compression head. Attached photo is my Pietenpol Sky Scout at the Oshkosh Model A meet a number of years ago.
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02-17-2021, 03:21 PM | #19 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
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02-17-2021, 03:48 PM | #20 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Nice video. I really enjoyed it. The chase plane was nice too.
I guess the question of why anyone would fly an antique airplane with a Model A engine in it is like why would anyone drive an antique Model A when you can just jump into a Toyota and drive anywhere. A hot Model A engine with insert bearings, cam, big valves, Weber, counterbalanced crank, etc. will put out 80 hp or more. More than enough to power the Pietenpol.
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02-17-2021, 05:21 PM | #21 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Bill55
Very nice. John
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02-17-2021, 06:00 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
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It's amazing how it still sounds just like a Model A with those short exhaust stacks! |
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02-17-2021, 06:05 PM | #23 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
You may be thinking of fins inside the oil pan to provide more oil to the rods. I saw this in a youtube video titled "Howard Henderson's Model A Ford powered Pietenpol Air Camper". Start at the 4:20 mark. It gives a lot of the engine modifications. Last edited by 40 Deluxe; 02-17-2021 at 06:11 PM. |
02-18-2021, 05:23 PM | #24 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Good info to know. May I inquire how much you got for her? Since it's a special plane in the eyes of the FAA, what level license did it require? (sport?)
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02-18-2021, 05:26 PM | #25 | |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Quote:
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02-19-2021, 11:12 AM | #26 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
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02-19-2021, 11:21 AM | #27 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
WELL Basically Yes but not as strict. A Sport Pilot certificate will suffice, and they are easy to get. As to why, if you go by the EAA's premise, Pietenpol was a kit plane where it was constructed by the owner. When I looked into building one for myself a few years ago, they were still recognized as an Experimental aircraft, and so the pilot only had to follow the guidelines for licensing as an experimental craft.
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02-19-2021, 01:20 PM | #28 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
A sport license limits you to small, slow, fixed gear, fixed prop aircraft below 1,320 lbs (600 kg) gross takeoff weight. So that means for 2 180 lb guys and 20 gallons fuel, (120 lbs) you have 840 lbs for the airframe and engine.
The Pietenpol is a taildragger, and that will require very good stick and rudder skills, not a casual few hours of training. Add the obstructed forward view and you have a challenging aircraft that (might) qualifies for a basic level of licensing. The Pietenpol site gives no information on stall speed or maximum gross weight, so it's not clear if it qualifies for a sport license. There is a difference between licensing the aircraft and licensing the pilot. |
02-19-2021, 07:44 PM | #29 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Well I don't have an answer to my original question, but this has been very interesting. I'm kind of glad I asked about it now.
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02-19-2021, 08:24 PM | #30 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
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02-19-2021, 08:44 PM | #31 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
The first Pietenpol had model T engines.
There is one in a museum somewhere. There is one in an airplane museum in the Morgan Hill, Ca. Area with a model B engine. I have seen it several times. |
02-19-2021, 11:08 PM | #32 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Automotive and airplane engines are similar, however, airplane engines have a much stronger front main bearing to support the propeller.
When using an automobile engine in an airplane, the rear main in the automobile engine becomes the front main when used in an airplane. In the automobile application, the rearmost main thrust bearing is only loaded when the clutch pedal is depressed. In an airplane application, the opposite thrust bearing is continuously loaded as the propeller pulls the airplane through the air. Another problem is the bending loads imposed on the crankshaft flange by the propeller which may result in a fatigue failure. In an automobile application, the bending loads are very small. In an airplane application, the bending loads can be large if one side of the propeller grabs more air than the other side, or if the propeller is not balanced. |
02-20-2021, 09:20 AM | #33 | |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
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I thought the Sky Scout came after the Air camper. Sky Scout used the T engine. |
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02-20-2021, 11:01 AM | #34 | |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
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Interesting. A few other differences: Aircraft engines are rated and constructed to operate at 75% power for ~90% of their operating life, car engines are not. When an aircraft engine fails or exhibits signs it's about to fail you can't pull off to the side of the road and call AAA. Aircraft engine castings are (except the rare automotive conversions) made out of aluminum for the obvious weight savings. Aircraft engines are typically made to run on the higher octane aviation fuel and unless you qualify for the related STC you cannot run any variety of auto gas. Vapor pressures are different as well, and can cause fuel starvation if mis-managed. (Some aircraft have vapor collection and return tanks) Aviation octane does not equal automotive octane, although if you break it down to the research method and the motor method you can do the conversion. Aircraft carburetors have a mixture control to adjust for altitude and power settings, automotive ones don't. Aircraft carburetors are subject to icing, and are equipped with carb heat. Carb icing can be fatal, nothing to ignore here. Aircraft engines almost always (And I never thought there would be an exception) have 2 magnetos and 2 sets of spark plugs that are independent. Once upon a time a manufacturer made an engine with a dual magneto off the same drive gear. That ended up being an unpopular design, whadayaknow, they were not truly independent. I myself have endured an engine failure from a slipping magneto drive gear. So a seasoned pilot will more than likely look askew at an engine with only 1 magneto. The recent tragic loss of the B-17 909 was due in a large part to multiple magneto problems. Aircraft engines have annual inspections, logbooks that record all maintenance, minimum compression to be legal, and all work must be signed off by a licensed FAA powerplant mechanic. (Yes, the owner can do minor stuff like oil changes) All engine parts must carry the proper FAA/PMA sourcing and approval. Probably more than you wanted to know, but it illustrates how far from a 'typical' aircraft engine the Model A is. Just the oil pump alone and gravity feed in turbulence or unusual attitudes gives pause. However as a historical relic, it's great to have some operating examples around. Last edited by Mister Moose; 02-20-2021 at 11:12 AM. |
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02-20-2021, 03:43 PM | #35 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
Well that was a comprehensive rundown on aeroplane piston engines and fuel Mister Moose. There is only one thing I would add that is of interest, and only one.
The cylinders are steel and the cylinder heads aluminium. They are screwed together, held in correct position and then the base attachment holes drilled. In the older radials, that join can leak a little before it takes up. If they don’t take up they are changed. Cylinders are nitrate coated to harden. For a period they were hard chromed. I used these and they seemed good but the process was discontinued. The dual magnetos driven off one drive didn’t install confidence in me either although I never flew one. That was a good and thorough report Mister Moose.
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02-20-2021, 05:12 PM | #36 |
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Re: Model A Aircraft Kit
As far as the single drive for the magnetos, I've flown them [ only in good visual weather]. But, It was an incredibly stupid idea.
I've also flown single magneto J2. Very underpowered. 37 HP if I remember correctly. Last edited by Patrick L.; 02-23-2021 at 10:39 AM. |
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