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02-28-2013, 01:13 PM | #1 |
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Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
Hemmings Motor News is marketing their own brand of synthetic oil in the April 2013 edition. Avalable in SAE 20W50 and 15W50. They state the advantages for Classic and older cars but obviously no disadvantages. Is it good or bad for a Model A ? Is it worth the investment ? 6 quarts full synthetic $ 70 dollars, shipped.
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02-28-2013, 02:09 PM | #2 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
Use whatever you like. Some swear by synthetic, some swear at it. You will find that every weight oil, by every manufacturer, detergent and non detergent oil will work and has worked for years.
Not one engine rebuilder on this site has ever said no not use XYZ because it will damage your engine. So with that I always recommend vehicle oil for Model A's.
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02-28-2013, 02:21 PM | #3 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
After seeing some test results here in my shop from Schaeffer's Oil against the Rotella 10w-40 that I was using, I am now using Schaeffer's mineral 30 wt Racing oil. The additives packaging that Schaeffers in putting in that oil that fights friction seems like a plus in our engines, and the thing I learned is any mineral oil can better absorb moisture and small contaminents than a synthetic can. This isn't a benefit on an engine that has an oil filter or one that reaches higher temps that can evaporate the condensation but when given a choice, the engineers felt the mineral oil would be a better choice. There are other oil companes that manufacture oil of equal quality to what Schaeffers is so that is not what I am saying, but the shear tests and the friction tests they do in front of your eyes are amazing.
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02-28-2013, 02:46 PM | #4 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
We use synthetic oil in the modern vehicle. The word is that synthetic oil leaks badly when used in the model A. Original model A engines don't have a rear oil seal but depend on a rear slinger on the crankshaft. Though I feel that synthetic oil is a better lubricant, I figured it was too expensive to be allowed to leak out on the ground. I use Walmart brand 20 W 50 with good results in my model A's. Opinions vary.
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02-28-2013, 02:51 PM | #5 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
The advantage of synthetic oil over natural mineral oil is "consistency." It holds it's viscosity much better under increasing temperature.
Thus, it can be "optimized" for the engine application. I don't think anyone except perhaps Hemmings supplier has analyzed the Model A engine for optimal oil. Hemmings is a magazine and NOT automotive engineers. And magazines are VERY close to marketing - which I expect this is all this is. Still, it may be possible to do the optimization. The Model A has a couple of challenges, however, these being a cylinder wall temperature (with OEM cooling) that is not optimal for sliding/ring seated friction, and hydrodynamic bearings in the crankcase (rather than pressure lube). And given the disparity between these two major functions (cylinder walls tend to like 5W oil at temperature and hydrodynamic tends to like SAE30) one wonders if synthetic could bring any additional advantage over the cheap stuff. The Model A engine is simply NOT that engineered a machine. Not that you can't make it more so with pressure lube and thermostats. Some say synthetic is more "slippery." This not so if you look at viscosity v. temperature alone and realize the curve is simply "flatter." "Clingy" is another term and not so fully described in the literature and perhaps what Brent above is getting to. I probably will keep using my SAE30 detergent oil since it is relatively cheap and I won't have a financial heart attack every 500 mile interval. Joe K
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02-28-2013, 03:17 PM | #6 | |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
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Quote:
I read the same thing many times. However, after switching to synthetic oil in our car (at the demand of a Model A guru whom I listened to), it began to leak less. Completely stock motor except for a valve job with a lot of miles on it now, it rarely leaks more than 2 or 3 drops after a day of driving. Also, after flushing the motor out, the oil stays pretty clean. Looks like it will probably make it way, way past the 500 mile mark before it gets dirty enough to prompt changing it. |
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02-28-2013, 03:29 PM | #7 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
I put synthetic in my 2004 dodge ram pick up and I started getting oil leaks, the next time I went back to regular oil and the leaks stop. I don't know what this means but just reporting what happened to me.
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02-28-2013, 04:13 PM | #8 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
I run Mobil 1 synth 15W-50 with a rear slinger. Not a single drop leaks. When I ran straight 20 detergent for the first 100 as break-in, both the front and rear dripped a little.
I think some of the modern engine reports of leakage with synth may relate to it having less of a swell effect on elastomeric seals than the oil it replaced. Any switching between brands or types, natural or synth, may give you a new oil with less swell effect resulting in leakage. That happens all the time with automatic trans rear seals, especially if anyone has ever added leak stop to it. The new fluid has less swell effect, the seals shrink back toward their metal outer shells. |
02-28-2013, 04:28 PM | #9 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
Thank you to all who have offered advice. I have been working on these old girls for 63 years. I was 80 years old last week. Unfortunatly I did not keep up with new technology so I have to ask for advice. Obviously I came to the right spot and I very much appreciate and respect your opinions. You are today's experts and sit in the chair I did 40 years ago. Thanks again !
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02-28-2013, 04:34 PM | #10 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
I have a queston, ...is the term "viscosity" the same with either type oil? For example, is 10w-30 synthetic more "fluid" or 'flowing' than 10w-30 mineral oil? If the synthetic oil is "less thick", then maybe that accounts for the leaks?
The only oil that I have ever experienced that created leaks from the moment it went in was that Graphite Oil that ARCO developed back in the '70s. That stuff would darn near leak out of the sealed can you bought it in, --and heaven help you if you put it in an engine as it would leak out every pore in the casting or ever gasket! Otherwise, I have not really experienced any leakage with synthetic being the cause. |
02-28-2013, 05:18 PM | #11 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
I run 15/50 synthetic in mine no leaks and if you look up the specs on Mobil 1 web site it is high in zddp.
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02-28-2013, 06:18 PM | #12 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
I think the biggest advantage to synthetic oil is it can be run for a much longer period of time before it starts to break down. The additives in conventional oil will leave some nasty deposits if not changed often enough. I would guess it depends how long and far you drive your A between oil changes to determine if it's worth the additional expense.
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02-28-2013, 07:07 PM | #13 | |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
Quote:
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02-28-2013, 08:24 PM | #14 | |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
Quote:
But this only that temperature. For differing temperatures the viscosity may vary widely. Chart of viscosity targets for various oil grades shown at http://www.machinerylubrication.com/.../oil-viscosity This one in particular of interest... One of the reasons for the sudden rise of "5W-30" oil is synthetic oil. They can maintain that 5W temperature above for starting, and yet have an oil of sufficient viscosity at operating temperature (ISO VG 100 - SAE 30) that contains sufficient "lubricity." The page is a little technical but brings one away with an appreciation of engine oils and their application. The oils available today are MUCH more thermally stable than oils available during the Model A period. Part of this being synthetic oil which while a lot of oils are called non-synthetic, actually contain a fair proportion of synthetic oil in the mix. This being driven by the vagaries of fractional distillation AND the need for a place to put non-optimal feedstocks. (what you buy as "mineral" oil may in fact be simply dregs left over from non-conforming synthetic oil production - too sloped a viscosity curve and didn't meet spec.) Joe K
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02-28-2013, 09:07 PM | #15 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
If you don't have a filter and change your oil at the recommended intervals does it even have time to break down? If the oil is not breaking down then you are speending more money for fake oil and changing it just as often.
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02-28-2013, 09:47 PM | #16 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
It's curious to me how it's turned out that a certain fraction of the glop produced when layers of ancient plankton are subjected to immense geologic pressure should be perceived as the gold-standard lubricant for metal-on-metal friction, while molecules scientifically custom designed, purified, synthesized, tested and proven superior for just that purpose are considered as somehow suspect or "fake." This, in spite of the fact that the synthetic oils are so superior that the extensive additive package that must be added to make the petroleum, or mineral, oils reasonably useful is largely unnecessary.
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02-28-2013, 10:03 PM | #17 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
JoeK's table has an important detail that most people will not pick up on, so I have highlighted it.
The SAE viscosity specs are not a single number of measured viscosity, like you would measure something to be exactly 12 inches long. They are a range. Any oil that has a viscosity that falls between "min" and "max" at 100 degrees C can be called that SAE viscosity. The W numbers are "winter" (cold temperature) measurements. Until multi-grade oils were produced, there were just single-grade "summer" and "winter" oils. So one company's oil may in fact be thinner (and leak more than) another company's oil with the same SAE number. IMHO, it is better to replace conventional oil more frequently in a Model A than it is to run synthetic for a longer time. But it's your call and your money.
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02-28-2013, 10:08 PM | #18 | |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
Quote:
There is nothing fake about synthetic oil. It is really amazing stuff.
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02-28-2013, 10:16 PM | #19 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
Jim/TX thank you for that clarification. I wish I had an online reference to a "family" of curves to show the difference in viscosity between two spec equivalent brands of oil: one synthetic and one non-synthetic.
But you brought out the point. Oil marking on the can is a "this range only" comparison. Cheap oils may have a very "tilted" viscosity curve and may be unsuitable for your engine. Synthetic oils a lot "flatter" curve. Now whether this makes a difference to the Model A is the subject of this thread, and I can't really tell EXCEPT to say that oil is getting continually better in it's basic properties. Thanks! Joe K
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Shudda kept the horse. Last edited by Joe K; 02-28-2013 at 10:22 PM. |
02-28-2013, 11:01 PM | #20 |
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Re: Synthetic Oil good or bad for Model A ?
Back when oil came in cardboard cans I owned a motorcycle shop. I grew up in a Havoline preferred family. I stocked that and others in the store. One shocker I found was every morning when I came in, I had to wipe the oil off the shelf and floor under the Castrol Oil. It leaked right through the cans. I soon found out it leaked through the gaskets on 4cyl Honda motorcycles and also other similar bikes. Switched them to Havoline (and others brands) and the leaks stopped on the same bikes.
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