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Old 04-18-2019, 03:14 PM   #1
Ol' Ron
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Default Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Ford ran several car at the 35 Indy 500. They were built by Harry Miller and were front wheel drive. They left the racer after ??? laps with steering box failure. I can't find any information on the engines. The cars were capable of over 100 MPH lap speeds. Looking for information on these cars and engines. Thanks Gramps
PS just made it to 86, don't plan ahead much.
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:40 PM   #2
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Happy Birthday! You have 5 years on me but I understand.
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

The legend is that the engines in those race cars used a 2 x 2 intake manifold with the carbs mounted "backwards" due to the front wheel drive. The patterns for these manifolds were supposedly used after WW II to produce the Hexagon Tool manifolds.
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

The most beautiful Indy racer ever built IMO.
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Love the 35 grille!
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:59 PM   #6
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Check Speedway motors website
Says engines were ported hot cam balanced Bonalite heads @ 9.5 compression & 4 single barrel carbs “special “ 4 ring pistons

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Old 04-18-2019, 04:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

The steering boxes were not shielded from the exhausts. As the steering box got hotter with each lap the steering got tighter and tighter, eventually leading to cars that could not be steered. HF was pissed and never went back.
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Old 04-18-2019, 04:24 PM   #8
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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Originally Posted by FritzJr View Post
The legend is that the engines in those race cars used a 2 x 2 intake manifold with the carbs mounted "backwards" due to the front wheel drive. The patterns for these manifolds were supposedly used after WW II to produce the Hexagon Tool manifolds.
Yes, kinda of. Originally, the cars were set up with a Miller-designed 4x1 bbl intake.

Edsel worked with the Hexagon Tool Co. to produce a 2x2 intake (with carbs mounted 180 degrees backwards) using 2 bbl. Strombergs (48's?).

The 2X2 equipped Stromberg cars ran better and a fair number (no sure how many) of the '35 Ford Indy cars then used this induction set up.

As Ron mentioned, exhaust ran too close to the steering box and then cooked the internals to premature failure.

Ford was so embarrassed by the DNF, he pulled out of factory-sponsored racing as a result.

I believe it wasn't until Henry II did they get back into it. I could be wrong on this.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

I think there is a car in the museum at indianoplis.
I would have to look back at my pics to be sure.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Those were the ultimate vintage Ford race cars even if they did fail miserably. I have some original magazines with articles on those cars I'll dig them out. I think I know where they are at? I have hundreds or more dry lakes photos I've borrowed or bought. I have photos of one of the Miller Indy cars at Muroc. I have so much of this stuff its getting hard too remember whose collection it was in that I copied and where I filed it?

One of those cars was sold to the son of the man that owned most of the radio stations in CA, Don Lee. That was probably around 1940. The hill that the Hollywood sign is on is named "Mt. Lee", because he had his broadcasting antennas up there. He probably owned the entire hill. Its still named Mt. Lee but you never here it mentioned.

His kid which more of an adult had a large collection of real exotic foreign cars. He had one of these '35 Indy cars in his collection. He showed up at the dry lakes in those cars as a spectator. Cars were band from competing unless they had American made engines. Overhead cam engines were banned too because it was suppose to be for amateur racing. I have a late 1940s parts price list for Offenhauser engines. A complete engine was something like $20,000.00 in today's dollars. So when you here the story of how a little V860 Edelbrock built flathead, in a Midget, beat a Midget with an Offenhauser engine, that was a big deal. Even if the V860 was inhaling nitro.

If this was your daddy (below) in 1940 you would have been driving around town in a 1935 Indy Car, or one of a dozen other highest priced sports cars in the world. In later year's he was in a traffic accident and suffered from excruciating back pain for years. I can relate to him after two failed surgeries. He went to the top of one of his dad's buildings and jumped off.

Don Lee

Having amassed a fortune selling automobiles, Lee branched out in broadcasting in 1926 when he purchased KFRC in San Francisco and relocated the station to the top floor of his Cadillac dealership at 1000 Van Ness Ave. In 1927 he purchased KHJ in Los Angeles.[2] By mid-September 1932, Lee also had full control of KDB, Santa Barbara, and KGB, San Diego.[3]
From 1929 to 1936, the 12-station Don Lee Network was affiliated with Columbia Broadcasting System. This venture was known as the Don Lee-Columbia Network. However, in 1936, CBS purchased KNX, along with some other West Coast stations. It also forged some new West Coast network alliances. This led to the Don Lee Network, now run by son Tommy Lee, to end its affiliation with CBS. Instead, on December 30, 1936, it became an affiliate of the Mutual Network. The two networks were known in newspaper ads as Don Lee-Mutual. Don Lee programs were offered to affiliates when Mutual had vacant time slots. The Don Lee Network was sold to ABC Radio on April 26, 1959. Programs became part of ABC.[4]
In 1931 Lee was granted a license to begin experimental television broadcasts with station W6XAO in Los Angeles.[5] The station later became KTSL, KNXT and is currently KCBS-TV. The ridge above the Hollywood sign, where Lee established his transmitter, is still known as "Mount Lee".

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Old 04-18-2019, 05:45 PM   #11
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

There is a 1933 Ford V8 raced by Fred Frame in a museum somewhere in U.S. There is a bit of a controversy about the engine on it to what carburetors it was running as their was no photos of the original engine I wonder what carburettors and how many of them is on that 1933 Ford V8 in that Museum.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

https://www.thehenryford.org/collect...lide=gs-214496
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Old 04-18-2019, 07:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

While visiting the link to The Henry Ford... Be sure to click the ribbon of photos. Here's a nice one. Of course, stolen from their website.

I found an article in the March-April 1985 V-8 Times about them. If anyone hasn't purchased their flash drive with 50 years of magazines and a way to search for indexed articles, you need to do it. https://shop.efv8.org/collections/me...es-flash-drive
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

I understand the front wheel drive was designed and built by Novi, which later built the Novi V8 which developed 500 hp and Granateli ran befor the turbine. I think the Novi engine was designed by Windfield.. alot of history here, wish we knew more.
Thanks for the birthday gratings, as the Rabi said, 'won't be long now.'
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

I looked in my literature piles and boxes and I can't find it. It is in the 1935 4th addition Racing Book by Kuns. It shows up on eBay every once in awhile. I did find one of the issues before it (Ford Roadster Racing) and the two issues after it. There is a nice article in those Miller Fords in that '35 issue. I had an entire extra bedroom room full of metal shelving around the walls and isles of them full of this stuff, all pretty well organized. The wife wanted it out of the house because of a wedding reception we were having here. I had just added onto the garage and I built a 8'X20' room upstairs for just my Ford literature and photos. I had either back surgery or shoulder surgery that week and wasn't allowed to lift anything. I still had drain tubes hanging out of me. So one night my wife and daughter took all that stuff out of the house and upstairs in the garage. I have never been able find anything since.

This is what it looks like.

I have a lot of info on those Mines Field, Elgin and Oakland Ford roadsters that raced. Some original photos, original newspaper articles A copy of the tear down measurements on one of the winning roadsters. Everything had to be 100% stock. They tore the engines, trans and rear ends apart. They give you cam load readings, jet sizes everything you can think of to make sure no cheating was going on. Even have one of the front page Newspapers that hung in every Ford Dealer. "Frame Wins Elgin Road Race". Those roadsters were so successful that was what inspired those '35 Ford/Miller Indy cars. After there steering failed there was no more factory sponsored racing. You will not find anything after 1935. Then you start getting into the Fords setting the dry lakes racing records.
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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I understand the front wheel drive was designed and built by Novi, which later built the Novi V8 which developed 500 hp and Granateli ran befor the turbine. I think the Novi engine was designed by Windfield.. alot of history here, wish we knew more.
Thanks for the birthday gratings, as the Rabi said, 'won't be long now.'
I was sort of friends with Kong Jackson. I drove down there a few times and spent the day listening to his stories. I'd ask him a question and his hearing was so bad he would tell me a completely different story. Which was good, I learned things I would not have found out otherwise. Kong was best friends with Ed Winfield, he worshiped Ed. That's all he wanted to talk about. Anybody that knew him will tell you how brilliant the guy was. Ed's brother, which I believe was named Bud seems to have had more to do with the Novi than Ed did. You will see photos of Bud with the Novi engines and cars but never Ed? There is only a handful of Ed Winfield photos. He was a pretty stealthy and secretive guy.

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Old 04-18-2019, 09:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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Originally Posted by VeryTangled View Post
While visiting the link to The Henry Ford... Be sure to click the ribbon of photos. Here's a nice one. Of course, stolen from their website.

I found an article in the March-April 1985 V-8 Times about them. If anyone hasn't purchased their flash drive with 50 years of magazines and a way to search for indexed articles, you need to do it. https://shop.efv8.org/collections/me...es-flash-drive
That photo of the engine shows that four-carb intake in 1935. I never understood why the four-carb or even a three-carb intake did not come along until after the War. Even on the fastest dry lakes cars? It took all those year's for the technology to catch up with that 1935 Indy intake.
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

From the V-8 Times article (which is a reprint from Puget Sounds, the V-8 Regional Group newsletter).

"Five of the cars had two Ford dual-throat carburetors and the other five had four single-throat Miller carbs mounted on a special manifold." It's really a pretty good article. It also says the fastest of the four to race, qualified at 113.432 against the pole which was 120.736.
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Old 04-19-2019, 06:06 AM   #19
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Looking at the front wheel drive set up with hydraulic brakes.Anybody what brand they would have been?.
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:02 AM   #20
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

There is an annual event at Milwaukee called "Millers at Milwaukee" where these and several other cars run on the track. The owners are very good about opening hoods and talking about their cars.

http://harrymillerclub.com/
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Old 04-19-2019, 03:02 PM   #21
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

I want to thank everybody for responding to this thread. Be nice to know what was in the engine to produce this much power. I don't think carbs alone could do it.
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Old 04-19-2019, 09:08 PM   #22
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

It appears Don “Sully” Sullivan aka Henry’s Wild Irishman had a lot to do with those intake manifolds.

This article taken from the website “Hot Rods of Dearborn”








| Home | The Untold Stories | The New Traditionalist | The Famous Rods |
In 1947 this was truly a backyard hot rod because the car was built without the shelter of a garage. Much was started in the basement and then brought outside for assembly in a tent…during the winter! The story goes, young Don Sullivan needed transportation, so his Father (Ford’s legendary horsepower wizard Don ‘Sully’ Sullivan) informed his son if he wanted an automobile he would have to build it himself. So, with the help of the whole family and curious neighbors, the project began.

The roadster has a ’35 Ford frame and suspension with a completely hand-built body with two cockpits. The back of the car features two ’40 Ford front hoods joined together to create a boat tail back end. Of course, it ran a Ford flathead V-8 with Hotton & Sullivan heads and the Don ‘Sully’ Sullivan dual carb Hexagon intake manifold.

Young Don Sullivan used this car for his main transportation for a number of years, diving year round with fenders and side curtains. He drove back and forth from Dearborn to Albion College on a regular basis. The car was later sold and the whereabouts are unknown.
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

In John Lawson's book "Flathead facts" He modified a stock 239 ci engine with every bolt on intake and carburetor available. Every cylinder head, and every ignition system. and still couldn't produce 100 HP. How ever the addition of a mild Max #1 cam did the trick. And the 221 is abit smaller.
Like I said, be nice to know what was in those engines.?????
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Old 04-19-2019, 11:04 PM   #24
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
In John Lawson's book "Flathead facts" He modified a stock 239 ci engine with every bolt on intake and carburetor available. Every cylinder head, and every ignition system. and still couldn't produce 100 HP. How ever the addition of a mild Max #1 cam did the trick. And the 221 is abit smaller.
Like I said, be nice to know what was in those engines.?????
How much torque were these engines producing and what rpm range did they run in? It’d be interesting to know those figures.

As a side note I believe those Novi V8’s that were mentioned earlier were actually 3 main bearing engines. I know there was a lot of Offenhauser in those Novi’s but I could have sworn there was some Ford dimensions or bolt patterns in them as well. I think I remember reading something about that long ago.
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Old 04-20-2019, 12:56 AM   #25
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Lew Welch was the money man behind the Novi and he called out some of the specs for the bottom end. He wanted the three main crank and also the rod and main journals the same as Ford dimensions. Welch was a factory authorized engine rebuilder for Ford and I guess that influenced his decisions. Bud Winfield got involved early on, as did Leo Goossen who had been both Harry Miller’s and Fred Offenhauser’s draftsman so naturally there was some Offenhauser influence to the design. No doubt Bud called on his brother to engineer the camshafts.
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:37 AM   #26
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

The 3 main bearing crankshafts balance better than a 5. Not sure why this is. I was told that on a 5 main crank, you can't put the metal where it does the most good?? AS for the engines in the Indy Fords, the builders had allot of money to spend on this project, so I doubt they were wormed over stockers.
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Old 04-20-2019, 12:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Does anyone know what the waterpump setup is on these? I've never seen a photo that shows one.

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Old 04-20-2019, 04:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

The water pump was driven off the camshaft where the distributor normally resided and there was a cockpit mounted magneto that had a right angle drive and cable coming off the nose of the crank. Harry Miller built some of his cars with the mag in the cockpit for adjusting the timing while under way. The heads were reversed with outlets to the radiator hoses connected via special castings.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:45 AM   #29
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Congrats on another year, Ron.

Did you see this?

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2016/0...-v-8-indy-car/

How about this?


Here you can see the unusual (and problematical) steering setup:


Front suspension:


Note heat protective wrap on the manifold:


Mart.

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Old 04-23-2019, 02:26 PM   #30
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

I wonder if Ford did or didn’t have a “skunkworks” type of operation in place that may have helped in certain ways with things like combustion chamber design or those exquisite exhaust manifolds etc.

I know Henry was keen to the idea that racing improves the breed. This would have been the ultimate racing project in 1935.
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Old 04-23-2019, 03:08 PM   #31
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

I may have missed this, but, is there any information on how many laps they ran, befor the steering gave out??
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Old 04-23-2019, 03:45 PM   #32
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Ron, Here are your answers (taken from a race summary in Motors)

# 43 Ted Horn Out at lap 145
# 42 Johnny Seymour Out at lap 71
# 35 George Bailey Out at lap 65
# 46 Bob Sall Out at lap 47
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:29 PM   #33
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Quote:
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Ron, Here are your answers (taken from a race summary in Motors)

# 43 Ted Horn Out at lap 145
# 42 Johnny Seymour Out at lap 71
# 35 George Bailey Out at lap 65
# 46 Bob Sall Out at lap 47
Are these all departures due to failed steering gears?
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:31 PM   #34
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

There is one of these at the HF and back in the 80's I visited there and was allowed to raise the hood and take pics. Have no idea where they are now.
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:34 PM   #35
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

That's allot of Laps, at over 100 MPH. Guess those flathead had some stamina
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:58 PM   #36
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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Are these all departures due to failed steering gears?
Three were from steering failures.

Semore in the 42 car went out with a grease leak. I'd bet it was a steering gear "grease leak".
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Old 04-23-2019, 05:12 PM   #37
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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There is only a handful of Ed Winfield photos. He was a pretty stealthy and secretive guy.
Kong, Ed Winfield and me in 1976 outside Ed's house in Vegas. It was fun looking through his photo album.



That was my "B" motor with a Cook four port. Notice the one of a kind Kong ignition with the olds four banger dist cap. Had two Winfield downdrafts on the other side That roadster pickup was a runner. They cannot help but run with me getting advice from Wess Cooper and Kong Jackson

Here is a good read on Ed https://www.nwvs.org/Technical/2104EdWinfield.pdf
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Old 04-23-2019, 05:36 PM   #38
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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Ron, Here are your answers (taken from a race summary in Motors)

# 43 Ted Horn Out at lap 145 Start Mid 9th row, finish 16th

# 42 Johnny Seymour Out at lap 71 Start 9th row

# 35 George Bailey Out at lap 65 Start 10th row

# 46 Bob Sall Out at lap 47 Start 33rd/last
Thanks for the info Don. I added in red, some details from the V-8 Times March-April 1985.
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:07 PM   #39
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Love those pict. Those exhaust manifolds look cast. Quite beautifully done.
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:09 PM   #40
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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Kong, Ed Winfield and me in 1976 outside Ed's house in Vegas. It was fun looking through his photo album.



That was my "B" motor with a Cook four port. Notice the one of a kind Kong ignition with the olds four banger dist cap. Had two Winfield downdrafts on the other side That roadster pickup was a runner. They cannot help but run with me getting advice from Wess Cooper and Kong Jackson

Here is a good read on Ed https://www.nwvs.org/Technical/2104EdWinfield.pdf

I've always loved this picture. So great. I bet that motor was a runner.

When I in my '20's, I called and spoke to both Kong and Navarro. I was just a dumb kid and didn't realize the magnitude of the gentlemen I was speaking to. I wish I could go back in time and talk to them again and the questions I would ask them now.
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:37 AM   #41
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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Kong, Ed Winfield and me in 1976 outside Ed's house in Vegas. It was fun looking through his photo album.



That was my "B" motor with a Cook four port. Notice the one of a kind Kong ignition with the olds four banger dist cap. Had two Winfield downdrafts on the other side That roadster pickup was a runner. They cannot help but run with me getting advice from Wess Cooper and Kong Jackson

Here is a good read on Ed https://www.nwvs.org/Technical/2104EdWinfield.pdf
This is a great read, thanks for the link.
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:47 AM   #42
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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This is a great read, thanks for the link.
The guy that wrote that article was Crazy Chris Eggsgaard. He was a total character in his own right. I knew him pretty well pre 1980. He owned an early 1930 Indy winner.

Did you know that in 1933 every Indy car that qualified but one ran Winfield Carburetors. A few days before the race the Zenith special was not doing so good. Ed designed a manifold, got it welded up and he put his carbs on it. So by race day they all had his carbs.
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Old 04-27-2019, 06:39 AM   #43
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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I understand the front wheel drive was designed and built by Novi, which later built the Novi V8 which developed 500 hp and Granateli ran befor the turbine. I think the Novi engine was designed by Windfield.. alot of history here, wish we knew more.
Thanks for the birthday gratings, as the Rabi said, 'won't be long now.'
Happy Birthday Ron! i hope you had a great day! i wish i could meet you in person. it would be kool to hang out with you in your shop and talk about whatever. i saw one of the cars in person at The Henry Ford. it was a great place to visit
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Old 04-27-2019, 03:53 PM   #44
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

I'm kinda laughing at the thread title. I taught English and History for 37 years and I never knew Indy was running just a few years prior to the Battle of Hastings. LOL
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Old 04-27-2019, 06:32 PM   #45
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

Not funny at all....most people realise Ol Ron has poor eyesight. The 9 and the 0 are pretty close together on the keyboard.
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Old 04-28-2019, 11:42 AM   #46
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

I feel blest to be tolerated here on the barn. Pobodies nerfect
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Old 04-28-2019, 11:45 AM   #47
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

^^^ We need a "like" button on here.
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Old 04-28-2019, 11:59 AM   #48
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Default Re: Ford ran 2/3 cars at the 1035 Indy 500?

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I feel blest to be tolerated here on the barn. Pobodies nerfect
Good one Ron!
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