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Old 12-03-2014, 11:46 PM   #121
DavidG
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

On my fours (and V-8s for that matter), the pistons are attached to the connecting rods, which are attached to the crankshaft, which when turned causes the pistons to move up and down in the cylinder bores. This occurs with or without the timing gear in place.
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Old 12-04-2014, 02:57 AM   #122
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I think the question was wether the timing gear was moving or not as charlie suggested .Any one whose worked on a A or B motor would know that by placing the timing pin in the hole and turning the motor you would be able to tell wether it was turning or not .it would be help full for you to do this simple test .

(Quote )I Thanks for ...........?
How do you get to the timing gear?
Is it really make of fabric/cardboard......Was Henry Cheap?





(Quote ) With all due respect to the suggestion that you could inspect the timing gear by removing the timing pin on the front timing gear cover, all you would ascertain is the highly remote possibility that the nut retaining the timing gear cover on the end of the camshaft was loose. A far more likely cause is sheared teeth and that can only be checked by removing the two bolts holding the side cover of the timing gear and one beneath it through the oil pan flange (see photo below - the timing gear side cover is forward of the fuel pump and shaped something like a quarter moon) and then hand cranking the engine through several revolutions of the crankshaft.[/QUOTE]
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:22 AM   #123
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

The problem here, Ted, is that the owner of this '33 has never worked on a car previously, let alone an A or B four. Your test is for someone who knows what they are looking for (or more specifically feeling for), not for someone who needs a book on this subject (one with a yellow cover and black printing).
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:35 AM   #124
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by Pat/Ohio View Post
Frank,

Look at the picture that DavidG posted above, now read his post. He has clearly pointed out what you should do next. Remove the timing gear inspection cover (2 bolts shown in the picture and one under the cover that goes through the oil pan). After removing the 3 bolts and timing gear inspections cover, you can now crank the engine over a few spins and check the teeth on the timing gear. Very straight-forward procedure. Good luck!
There are more than three bolts...there are 6 bolts because three screw into the side of the cover!

I removed these bolts and am trying to get the cover to com off. After 80 years ....I am trying to get the proper way to loosen it....
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File Type: jpg B engine exploded view.jpg (100.5 KB, 17 views)

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Old 12-04-2014, 10:59 AM   #125
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, Like DavidG said earlier...."My bad, there are 6 bolts" I too forgot the front bolts on the timing cover. Anyway, you found them. The gear cover should come loose. Perhaps there is a little gasket/gasket goop holding it on. I replaced the timing gear on my Model B motor several years ago (with the help of a Model A owner). You're going to get this thing...hang in there! Regards, Pat
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:03 AM   #126
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by Pat/Ohio View Post
Frank, Like DavidG said earlier...."My bad, there are 6 bolts" I too forgot the front bolts on the timing cover. Anyway, you found them. The gear cover should come loose. Perhaps there is a little gasket/gasket goop holding it on. I replaced the timing gear on my Model B motor several years ago (with the help of a Model A owner). You're going to get this thing...hang in there! Regards, Pat
To remove the front lower front 3 bolts,,,I will have to support the engine with a jack and remove the engine mount.
I have Les Andrews Model A mechanics book.
I am on my way....Thanks for your help.
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:20 AM   #127
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, Does your spare Model B engine have the timing gear cover and timing gear inspection cover on it? If the front of the spare engine is accessible...you could remove the inspection cover to give you an idea of what to expect after it is removed.

One thing leads to another when working on these old engines! You would have to remove the front engine mount anyway in the event that the timing gear teeth are sheared. I wish I still had my Model B engine (roadster) so that I could refer to it and help you better. Regards, Pat
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Old 12-04-2014, 12:46 PM   #128
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Pat,

The situation is complicated by the subject car being a '33. On a '32 (and super early '33s, which evidently is not the instance herein) with the 12" spacing between the front motor mount insulators those three bolts are removable without having to detach the front motor mount bracket from the front timing gear cover. Once the motor mount insulator spacing was increased early in the '33 model year it was no longer possible to access the lowest of the three front cover bolts without removing the front motor mount bracket (see photo below).

As Frank has pointed out, he'll need to put a block of wood under the bottom of the oil pan at the front to jack it up so that the motor mount bracket can be removed. What is relatively straight forward on a '32 is much more complicated on a '33-'34 four.

With apologies to Flathead Ted, I now agree with him that Frank should first try to detect movement of the timing gear by pressing the timing pin located on the front timing gear cover into the hole from which it is removed from. There's a shallow hole in the face of the timing gear that the round end of the timing pin will encounter as the crankshaft is turned. Several encounters with the pin bumping into and out of that hole would eliminate the timing gear from the list of possible sources of his engine's problems.
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Old 12-04-2014, 12:52 PM   #129
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

If Frank were to remove the plugs, would he be able to see valve movement?

Pin confirms gear movement.

Valve movement confirms cam rotation.

(Actually the second test would be better done first. No need to check the gear if the cam is rotating.)

Mart.
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Old 12-04-2014, 01:26 PM   #130
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

,We had this problem recently on a Model A and it was the tang on the distributor shaft .water had got in through the head .
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Old 12-04-2014, 02:41 PM   #131
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Mart's suggestion is a good one and a potential time saver as the spark plug holes line up pretty well with the inner edges of the valves. A well focused flashlight would be handy for this purpose.
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Old 12-04-2014, 02:59 PM   #132
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Spark plugs are right over the valves. Easy to see if things are happening there. That's a good suggestion. With engine turning over by starter if you do not see valves opening and closing, you can surmise that the cam gear is dentally challenged. Or worse, but that was the reason for the fiber gear. A weak link that preserves other more important things from getting broke. Plus they're quieter.
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Old 12-04-2014, 03:12 PM   #133
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by jim galli View Post
Spark plugs are right over the valves. Easy to see if things are happening there. That's a good suggestion. With engine turning over by starter if you do not see valves opening and closing, you can surmise that the cam gear is dentally challenged. Or worse, but that was the reason for the fiber gear. A weak link that preserves other more important things from getting broke. Plus they're quieter.
Will look into the spark plug holes before I began trying to take timing gear cover off. I took at easy bolts out... no problem...but will try to see valve motion before I continue...
Thanks everyone for your help....

This is almost like a soap opera...
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:17 PM   #134
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I tried to see the valves....Can't
I think I would need something like this
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital...era-67979.html

I seemed to remember a long time ago that there was a fiber optic scope that did not transfer the image to video but was a direct view and sold for
much less. Today everything gas to electro-optical.
Not really needed here.
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:09 PM   #135
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by FrankWest View Post
I tried to see the valves....Can't
I think I would need something like this
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital...era-67979.html

I seemed to remember a long time ago that there was a fiber optic scope that did not transfer the image to video but was a direct view and sold for
much less. Today everything gas to electro-optical.
Not really needed here.
Frank, Don't spend any money on the inspection camera. It will probably be the only time you use it. As has been suggested, pull the half moon shaped cover off of the side of the engine and look at the timing gear. Be careful and you might not need to replace the gaskets that extend under other adjacent parts. Before doing that I still like my idea of sticking something into the timing pin hole to see if the gear is turning. Since the distributer is not moving you may have a situation where a lot of the teeth are sheared off of the gear. My suggestion won't tell you if you have a tooth of two missing or pitted but what you are looking for is to find if a lot of teeth are missing and the gear is not moving. What have you done so far?

Charlie Stephens
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Old 12-05-2014, 07:08 AM   #136
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I removed the bolts I could get to...
Supported the engine pan with jack and slab of wood
Next step loosen engine support bolts to access the bolts for the timing gear cover
Just holding

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Old 12-05-2014, 07:32 AM   #137
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

Unless I missed a couple of posts somewhere (or there is something you didn't tell us) you still haven't found the problem. Did you check out the easy to check things mentioned earlier? We are in the dark since you don't tell us what you have done. You shouldn't be removing the timing gear cover yet, just the half moon piece at the side of the engine so you can see the teeth (part 6017 in the illustration contained in post #105). Did you try my suggestion about turning the engine and checking through the timing pin hole to see if the cam gear is turning (see David's post #128, he is now agreeing with that suggestion)? You would probably have better luck checking with something like an ice pick instead of the timing pin. Any chance you could find a Model A owner nearby and ask them to come look at the problem since it should be the same as a Model A?

Charlie Stephens

Last edited by Charlie Stephens; 12-05-2014 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 12-05-2014, 09:20 AM   #138
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Charlie,

With respect, he said that he can't see the valves through a spark plug hole in the head, so he's after the timing gear side cover. Perhaps with more experience in the future he will be comfortable with trying the timing pin approach. My experience with many fours is that the whole business of using the timing pin to establish the starting point to set the points is highly overrated and that visual confirmation of the position of the #1 piston is far more reliable as a starting point to set the points in conjunction with a timing light.

He's doing what is required on a '33 to gain access to all three bolts on the front timing gear cover that attach to the side cover (the removal of six bolts is required to remove the side cover as I belatedly acknowledged above). That access is a big deal on a '33-'34 four, unlike on a '32 because of the far greater width of the front motor mount bracket as shown in the photo above.

No harm will come from removing the timing gear side cover and doing so will define beyond all doubt the role of the timing gear in this "soap opera" (Frank West's words). I regret that my well-meaning contributions have elongated the script.
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Old 12-05-2014, 09:45 AM   #139
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

This is the cool thing about this forum. Many people with many experiences are trying to help, and the rest of us are learning.

It May be getting frustrating for Frank and there's, but we are all learning things we may not have without his questions.
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Old 12-05-2014, 11:01 AM   #140
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Too painful for me. I'll check back in a month to see where we're at.

When I was a kid I watched my grandad spend most of an afternoon cleaning battery posts. Something I could have accomplished in minutes, and I thought to myself, what could this man possibly do at work. He was Kelly Johnson's radar lead on the SR71...
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