51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

[dixiedelux]

I have made an agreement to buy a 51 Merc engine and will install it in my 40 Ford Tudor with a 39 toploader. I would appreciate input from any one familiar with this swap. I have researched and have came up with the following:
1 I will need the truck series 8rt water pumps

2 I will need a rear sump truck oil pan. I need clarification on this one because I regard all of the oil pans as rear sump.

3 The seller claims to have fabbed a wide belt crank pulley that will accept a 40 crank mounted fan. Is this a good idea. What are other options?

4 How about radiator hoses? Are the 8ba head hose recipicals the same size as the radiator's?

5. I have been told that if I get a 48-52 truck flywheel it will not have to be drilled to accept a 48-52 clutch and pressure plate. Can someone clarify for me the need to drill an 8ba passenger car flywheel to accept the truck clutch and why only a truck clutch and pressure plate will adapt to a early transmission?

6. I have noticed from Van Pelt drawings, that the 51 Merc bell housing set up is a little differnce from the rest. Will there be any problem there?

7. Will there be an issue with starter clearance?

8 Can I use stock ford exhaust manifolds?

Any help will be appreciated!

[JSeery]

On the clutch, not sure of the intended use of your 40, but the truck clutch and pressure plate is not the best combination to use. The larger (and heavier) the clutch assembly the slower the acceleration, no advantage unless you are carrying heavy loads or towing. For me a 9 inch clutch would be the best and a 10 inch as the maximum. Getting a flywheel redrilled is not too big an issue and the clutch plate only has to match the splines on the transmission.

[dixiedelux]

Thanks! That is something to consider. I would need to find and experienced shop to do the drilling because I have been warned that although it "is not to big an issue" not every knows how to do it and it is drilled improperly often. Do you think a passenger car clutch from an 8ba will match the splines on an early (39) transmission?

[JSeery]

See if any of this is of interest:

http://www.flatheadv8.org/rumblest/clutch.pdf

Fort Wayne is the place to talk to about clutches:

http://www.fortwayneclutch.com/index...-kt5102-r.html

[dixiedelux]

Oh yeah! Thanks! Both of those are of great interest to me.

[V8 Bob]

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[QUOTE=dixiedelux;1076912]I have made an agreement to buy a 51 Merc engine and will install it in my 40 Ford Tudor with a 39 toploader. I would appreciate input from any one familiar with this swap. I have researched and have came up with the following:
1 I will need the truck series 8rt water pumps

You want to use the '48-'52 truck pumps, not '53. You'll also need a '48-'53 truck/'49 Ford/Merc wide belt crank and generator pulley.

2 I will need a rear sump truck oil pan. I need clarification on this one because I regard all of the oil pans as rear sump.

The '48-'52 truck pans have rear sumps with large clean-out plates. The '53 truck pan is a stepped rear sump. The other rear sump pan is the '49-'51 Mercury. The '49-'51 Fords and '52-'53 Fords/Mercurys have center sump pans.

3 The seller claims to have fabbed a wide belt crank pulley that will accept a 40 crank mounted fan. Is this a good idea. What are other options?

I think cooling will be better with a higher mounted fan, just not sure about fit/clearance issues. I would try to use a late truck/'49 Ford/Merc wide belt fan.

4 How about radiator hoses? Are the 8ba head hose recipicals the same size as the radiator's?

The 8BA hoses are 1 1/4" while the earlier hoses are larger (I think 1 1/2" ?)

5. I have been told that if I get a 48-52 truck flywheel it will not have to be drilled to accept a 48-52 clutch and pressure plate. Can someone clarify for me the need to drill an 8ba passenger car flywheel to accept the truck clutch and why only a truck clutch and pressure plate will adapt to a early transmission?

You can use any Late Ford/Merc car or truck flywheel. Fords used several Long style sizes (9 1/2"/10"/11") while Mercurys used 10" Borg & Becks that use the same bolt pattern as some modern diaphragm (my choice) clutch plates. The disc has to have an 1 3/8" X 10 spline to match your '39 tranny. Any good clutch re builder can put together a clutch setup.

6. I have noticed from Van Pelt drawings, that the 51 Merc bell housing set up is a little differnce from the rest. Will there be any problem there?

You'll need a '49-'50 Mercury stamped/'48-'52 truck cast 1/2 bell to mate the late flathead to your 39 transmission. The regular production '51 Mercury bell housing is full size designed to be used with the late 4 bolt B/W transmissions that came out in '49 Fords/'51 Mercurys.

7. Will there be an issue with starter clearance?

No problem.

8 Can I use stock ford exhaust manifolds?

Yes, but steel aftermarket headers might be a better option.

QUOTE]

[JSeery]

There is a lot of information in this thread:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53933
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...t=53933&page=2

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by JSeery

There is a lot of information in this thread:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53933
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...t=53933&page=2

Thanks again Teacher! You are certainly giving me plenty of reading homework.
Richard

[dixiedelux]

A big thanks for the pertinent and specific information, Bob. That sketchy, gray area about the clearance problems if not using a 40 fan scares me. The builder uses a 40 crank mount fan on his and has no immmediate problems but he says he wishes it ran a little cooler. He is convinced a set of Haney rebuilt pumps will do the job. Was improper cooling inherent in 40 Fords?
He told me today the engine has a Mercury stamped Bell.
I asked about stock ford exhaust manifolds because of being assured I wont have to do exhaust work immediately. I have all new exhaust on my 40. Headers, for sure, will be on the want-to list!

[V8COOPMAN]

dixiedlx.......One of the problems you may run into on a '40 with a HIGHER-mounted fan is the fan blades trying to share the same real estate with the upper radiator hoses. '40's don't run particularly warmer than other years, as long as your block's water jackets and radiator are squeeky clean, and make sure ALL of the air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces are in place. Factory-designed and implemented for a good reason. DD

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

dixiedlx.......One of the problems you may run into on a '40 with a HIGHER-mounted fan is the fan blades trying to share the same real estate with the upper radiator hoses. '40's don't run particularly warmer than other years, as long as your block's water jackets and radiator are squeeky clean, and make sure ALL of the air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces are in place. Factory-designed and implemented for a good reason. DD

Coopman, Can you give an example of air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces? Is the slashpan an example?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Coopman, Can you give an example of air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces? Is the slashpan an example?

Lower panel and two side pieces between fenders and radiator. They guide air THROUGH radiator rather than AROUND it. DD

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Lower panel and two side pieces between fenders and radiator. They guide air THROUGH radiator rather than AROUND it. DD

Thanks Coopman,
Recently, I discovered new in a Drake box the above described side panels. I could not figure what they were used for; I thought I had orderd a wrong part or a order was shipped wrong. It must have been a sale item and I thought I might need it sometime, and unbeknownst to me, I do!

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Coopman, Can you give an example of air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces? Is the slashpan an example?

Here's a little expansion of V8's earlier air deflector sheet metal photos as sold by BOB DRAKE. 01A-8434, 01A-8209, 91A-8104/5, 91A-8240.
https://www.bobdrake.com/Categories2...illesheetmetal
The last two photos show home made pieces that block air from going up over the radiator and into the engine compartment. One piece fits in front of the radiator. The other into the hood. The goal is to direct as much fresh air into the radiator as possible and also evacuate as much hot air from the engine compartment as possible. Some folks use (non-stock) louvered inner fender panels to help the hot air escape

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Here's a little expansion of V8's earlier air deflector sheet metal photos as sold by BOB DRAKE. 01A-8434, 01A-8209, 91A-8104/5, 91A-8240.
https://www.bobdrake.com/Categories2...illesheetmetal
The last two photos show home made pieces that block air from going up over the radiator and into the engine compartment. One piece fits in front of the radiator. The other into the hood. The goal is to direct as much fresh air into the radiator as possible and also evacuate as much hot air from the engine compartment as possible. Some folks use (non-stock) louvered inner fender panels to help the hot air escape

Great Help again, Fordy! I plan to use the homemade piece in front of radiator. It is used a lot, isn't it? The panel inside the nose of the hood, I have yet to see. I have the new I outer grill panels #91A-8104/5. I have new inner fender panels. I plan to have my hood louvered. I suppose it would be prudent to drop the panels off with the hood. the problem with that is all of the new Drake paint will have to be removed and I am not sure there is much flat area to louver. Is there an aftermarket vendor for the 40 inner fender panels? How about Mr. 40?

[V8COOPMAN]

[QUOTE=dixiedelux;1078326] The panel inside the nose of the hood, I have yet to see. QUOTE]

That hood panel nose piece blocks HOT air that didn't escape the engine compartment from being forced back over the top of the radiator and down, so as NOT to be sucked back through the radiator.........already HOT. Good piece to install. DD

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Great Help again, Fordy! I plan to use the homemade piece in front of radiator. It is used a lot, isn't it? The panel inside the nose of the hood, I have yet to see. I have the new I outer grill panels #91A-8104/5. I have new inner fender panels. I plan to have my hood louvered. I suppose it would be prudent to drop the panels off with the hood. the problem with that is all of the new Drake paint will have to be removed and I am not sure there is much flat area to louver. Is there an aftermarket vendor for the 40 inner fender panels? How about Mr. 40?

PLEASE do not punch louvres in your 1940 Ford hood as it really takes away from the beauty of the hood, in my opinion. Instead, buy louvered inner fender panels. http://www.mr40s.com/mr.-40-s-stuff.html However, I see there are no "ribs' stamped into the louvered panels. This might cause a vibration and subsequent cracks in the sheet metal. Have you thought about fabricating some very subtle air scoops into the OEM fender panels? I bet it could be tastefully done.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Great Help again, Fordy! I plan to use the homemade piece in front of radiator. It is used a lot, isn't it? The panel inside the nose of the hood, I have yet to see. I have the new I outer grill panels #91A-8104/5. I have new inner fender panels. I plan to have my hood louvered. I suppose it would be prudent to drop the panels off with the hood. the problem with that is all of the new Drake paint will have to be removed and I am not sure there is much flat area to louver. Is there an aftermarket vendor for the 40 inner fender panels? How about Mr. 40?

The little piece of metal between the radiator and the hood latch bracket is not commonly used. Instead, there is a sheet metal piece that you can buy that fits over the entire opening on top of the grille. It's called a grille shroud and looks like this:
http://www.mr40s.com/mr.-40-s-stuff.html Figure out a way to install it without having to drill holes into your existing sheetmetal brackets. Maybe, use industrial Vel-Cro.
Make your own piece out of thick cardboard, first, to see how it works before spending any $$. Again, try to avoid drilling any holes into your OEM metal.

[rotorwrench]

A lot of the early run of 51 Mercury cars still used the half bell housing that will work for the early transmission. The later 51 Mercs had a one year only casting with an early type clutch equalizer. They are better suited for a transmission with 4-bolt narrow Borg Warner pattern. The 10-inch long type clutch was used on some 48 to early 51 F1 pickups but they are rare now days. The 49 thru early 51 Merc Borg & Beck clutches are an alternative but there are no reproduction clutch or pressure plates available. I get mine rebuilt by Ft Wayne clutch. It may be easier to get the Merc flywheel trilled for a 9 or 10-inch Long type clutch since they are easier to get parts for.

The 49 thru 51 Merc oil pan is not as deep as the truck pan so it is just a bit better for steering linkage clearance.

You would have to install the motor and check the clearance of any "fabricated" fan mounting on the crank pulley. It might work OK. You certainly wouldn't have to worry about adjusting the fan belt that way. The 49 Merc and early F1 models used the fan that dates back to 1942 (the oil filled hub type) but they are wide belt. They just have there own belt to run them.

[19Fordy]

Flathead Jack has thermostat housings for the 8BA that will match the stock 40 radiator outlets. Pricey but pretty and eliminates the need for hose reducers. You could also make and braze some collars onto the stock 49-53 cast iron thermostat housings to increase their OD. http://flatheadjack.com/78.html
When I installed a 50 Merc into my 40 I used:
49-51 Merc rear sump oil pan. Provides more clearance for drag link if you severely "rake" your car.
40 column shift trans. I think the 39 trans. will work also.
49-51 Merc flywheel, pressure plate and clutch. Clutch is 10 in.
40 throw out bearing
8RT wide belt water pumps
Wide belt generator pulley
Stock 40 exhaust manifiolds
49-51 Ford pickup 2 sheave pressed steel wide belt crank pulley
Stock 1940 Ford engine mount biscuits
49-51 Merc pressed steel bellhousing. I think early Ford pick up truck cast bellhousing will also work, even if you use a 10 inch clutch and pressure plate.
I welded "ears" onto the Merc pressed steel bellhousing to accept modified anti-chatter rods. Make sure they clear the clutch and brake pedal when depressed. or, you can make an after-market anti-chatter device that bolts to the Merc belhousing. See photo.
To have the pickup wide belt pulley clear the front cross member I removed the stock "Y" fender support bracket and made new angle iron support brackets that bolt to stock holes in the frame. See photo. Also moved the radiator forward and made new radiator support brackets to attach to the sides of the Walker radiator. (PS: If you decide to use a new radiator, Walker will make you a radiator with smaller top inlets to match your thermostat housings.) Also, disregard notes on crank pulley photo. By far, the most troublesome part of this engine install is respositioning the fan so that it will "clear" the top radiator hoses and still provide adequate cooling. A search may reveal alternative ideas. I ended up making a new fan carrier bracket and fan pulley. You need a lathe to do this. It's a lot of work. Consider an electric fan. I did this install in 1970 and it's still in the car. Hope I didn't forget anything you may need to know.