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Old 06-21-2019, 02:30 PM   #1
ryanheacox
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Default Transmission Bearings?

I've put about 700 miles on my new engine and have recently noticed a noise/vibration that has been present for a long time starting to get worse.


It is RPM dependent, can't notice it in 1st, happens around 20 in 2nd and 35-38 in 3rd. Only happens under load, backing off the gas makes the noise go away.


Initially I figured it was some sort of sympathetic vibration, something on the car was vibrating when the engine hit the right RPM. BUT, bringing the revs up in neutral does not replicate the noise.


So, now I'm thinking maybe the input shaft bearing is on the way out. I really should have taken the transmission apart when it was out of the car but I figured it's never given any trouble so don't fix what isn't broken...



It also dawned on me that this noise isn't new with the new engine. It was there before but not driving the car for almost a year made me forget about it...


What does everyone think? Do I order some bearings and drop the rear end or is there more diagnosing I can do?
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:36 PM   #2
john charlton
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

My guess is a bad u/j normally more evident on the overun when the transmission is being backdriven .

John in same place weather was cancelled today .
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:37 PM   #3
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

I am assuming you know the flywheel housing is straight, ...and you indicated it to the crank & flywheel.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:42 PM   #4
Joe K
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

Pilot bearing in the center of the flywheel comes to mind. Bearings wear and this one is easily forgotten - or the input shaft stub which fits it is worn down. (Easily bushed on a lathe.)

When in gears 1 and 2, there is a side thrust to the input shaft which masks the vibration. When in third gear the torque is all "throughput" and the transmission input shaft is more free to "wallow around" at high speed which may be what you're hearing?

Sounds like a take it apart excuse.

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Old 06-21-2019, 03:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

John, I examined the u joint when everything was apart. There was no slop or binding, doesn't totally rule out the u joint but I don't think that's it.



Brent, I personally did not indicate the flywheel housing but the engine rebuilder told me that he did and it was straight.


Joe, pilot bearing is new and has about 700 miles on it. The side thrust would make sense, it is more evident in 3rd.


I should have also said that the noise goes away at higher speeds in the respective gears. Only happens in a 2-3mph window, 20-22ish and 35-38ish.
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Old 06-21-2019, 04:00 PM   #6
Purdy Swoft
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

If it was mine I would remove the transmission and replace all of the bearings and the shaft that the cluster gear bearings ride on . check the gears for pits . Usually if it doesn't jump out of any gear , then bearings and shafts are all that should be needed . The problem could be the back end I would put the overhauled transmission in and install the back end for a test . if the noise continues I would look to the backend and the front drive shaft bearing and race in the front of the torque tube .
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:18 AM   #7
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

Purdy, that is my plan. I had the tower off the trans before and all the gears looked good with no pitting. It’s always shifted smoothly and never jumped out of gear either. Really regretting not pulling it apart further and doing bearings. I was also planning to do the reverse idler shaft and bushing while it was out.

So my list is all new bearings, new shafts, new gaskets. Is there any hardware that should be replaced as a matter of course?
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:31 AM   #8
Purdy Swoft
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

I forgot to mention but I always replace the reverse idler shaft as well . I can't think of any other . I can't think of any other parts or hardware that should be replaced unless it is something obvious that you discover when you get into the transmission .
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:37 AM   #9
Ed in Maine
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

You might check to verify that the fan is balanced. This would be RPM sensitive. Vibration here would get back into the engine. This would be easy to do before you pull everything else apart. It is a good time to go to a new 2 bladed fan if you don't have one. Ed
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Old 06-22-2019, 09:02 AM   #10
katy
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

Have you checked the oil level in the transmission?
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Old 06-22-2019, 09:02 AM   #11
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

THis is my experience with noise in second gear.

My noise was in 2nd gear only and got to be VERY loud the longer I drove it.

At first was like 20 to 25 in second towards the end it was 15 to 30 ... above 30 it was quiet.

As noted below the bearing inside the cluster which failed was on sec/third slider end of cluster which I think was reason it showed up in second gear.

When needle bearing fell apart the noise got much worse because one end of cluster was unsupported and was "flopping around.

Maybe if bearing that failed was on the other end of cluster it might have been noisy in 1st.



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Re: Tranny 2nd Gear
________________________________________
My coupe suddenly started to make noise in 2nd gear about 5000 miles after a complete rebuild. All new shafts, all new Mark gears, bearings and etc.

Looking back on it the only thing NOT replaced were the three needle bearings because they looked good. (HINT ... HINT)

I lived with the noise by keeping speeds low in 2nd gear and drove another 5000 miles.

Finally got tired of noise and tore it down.

Found that one of the needle bearings inside the cluster gear had come apart so one end of cluster gear was "flopping around".

Second/third slider gear surfaces and the corresponding gear on the cluster were "all chewed up".

I wonder if maybe I could have saved the 2nd gear and the cluster by taking it apart as soon as the noise started! Your call !!

Steve at Bert's said it was the noisiest transmission that he had ever heard.

On the surviving needle bearings you can see that the needles are worn to "Points" where they fit into the holes in the "cage" and holes are worn "oblong"...

Other wise the bearings look new.
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Old 06-22-2019, 09:15 AM   #12
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

If it is the cluster gear bearing then "modify" it slightly on re-assembly.

The original setup was a long needle bearing, a spacer, and a short needle bearing.

Modify it by putting two longs and a short - and throw away the spacer.

Better support for the cluster gear.

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Old 06-22-2019, 09:45 AM   #13
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanheacox View Post


Brent, I personally did not indicate the flywheel housing but the engine rebuilder told me that he did and it was straight.



It has been my experience that probably 1 in 5 flywheel housings are straight and do not need machining. Maybe yours was one of those five.


Generally speaking, when the pilot bushing is worn, you will experience clutch disc runout (-clutch chatter) however at speed the disc will center itself. As you stated, just remove the transmission (-remove rear end to gain access) and look at the internals. If for no other reason, just peace of mind.
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Old 06-22-2019, 11:24 AM   #14
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I’ll do the easy checks first, the fan is an aluminum 2 blade. I have read about balance problems with them before so it’s worth a check. The oil level was full 500 miles ago/in April when I checked but I will definitely check again before going further.

Theres a 20 ton shop press on sale at horrible freight right now for $150 and this project will give me the excuse to get it����

Also found out my neighbor has front and rear spring spreaders so I should be in good shape to pull everything apart.
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Old 06-30-2019, 09:55 PM   #15
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

So, borrowed the spring spreader around 5 and had the transmission apart by 9:45 with a break for dinner, probably not great time but not too bad for my first time.


I would say the question mark on the title of this thread is no longer needed.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ04V3Hd730


Oil level was low, looks like the front bearing started to fail and a lot of oil got out the front and into the bell housing which explains the drip I was getting. If I had to guess I'd say that the bearings are 60ish years old (not Ford but replaced long ago) so it's had a good run. The cluster shaft needed to be pressed out but other than that everything came apart easily, will see how the gears look after a night in the parts washer.
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Old 07-01-2019, 08:36 PM   #16
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

Got everything cleaned up today. Both ball bearings were shot. Would like some input on the condition of the gears. To my eye the cluster gear needs to be replaced but does anything else? The pictures show the worst wear/pitting on each respective gear and the circled area on the cluster is a chipped tooth. The roller bearing surface on the main shaft is smooth but not shiny, not sure how big of a deal that is.


Again, this transmission never popped out of gear and sounded pretty decent apart from the noise that started all of this. Also, with all the grease cleaned away it looks like I should rebuild the U-joint while it's apart.
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Old 07-01-2019, 09:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

Trace out the flow-path for motion though the tranny.

The (I think) 1st gear of the cluster is not looking too grand. The chip appears on this and seems to be on the side of the gear towards the reverse (end gear) of the cluster. Somebody clashed the gears going to reverse.

The rest of the cluster is not bad but - unfortunately - it looks like you're into a cluster. Well, you might try it with new ball bearings. But it might "scream" in 1st. But you don't drive there long...

The "frosted" surface of the internal needle bearing (between front & back shaft) is normal. There is normally no motion between the input & output shaft when in 3rd gear, of course.

The input shaft (4th pix) appears normal. Good sharp edges on the 3rd speed internal/external gear which is a plus for this. (you don't want it popping out of gear.)

Last pix shows the "entrance angle" of the gear - this looks ok and is design.

New or old cluster is the question. A new cluster might have problems meshing with old gears on input and output shafts. You might instead ask about "used" but "acceptable" cluster.

Generally I try to mate good old with good old OR go all new for a transmission. I've gone both paths with different transmissions and get similar non-problematical results.

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Old 07-01-2019, 09:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

most of the gear in there are toast. the cluster gear is junk. time for new gears. look at the taper the length of the gear, it should be even. when rebuilding the transmissions you need to take a close look at every gear.
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Old 07-01-2019, 11:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

You are showing bearing wear and galling on the cluster,both need repair..dont think its going to cure your issue,bearing noise and gear noise is constant.
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Old 07-02-2019, 06:05 AM   #20
ryanheacox
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Default Re: Transmission Bearings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
Trace out the flow-path for motion though the tranny.

The (I think) 1st gear of the cluster is not looking too grand. The chip appears on this and seems to be on the side of the gear towards the reverse (end gear) of the cluster. Somebody clashed the gears going to reverse.

The rest of the cluster is not bad but - unfortunately - it looks like you're into a cluster. Well, you might try it with new ball bearings. But it might "scream" in 1st. But you don't drive there long...

The "frosted" surface of the internal needle bearing (between front & back shaft) is normal. There is normally no motion between the input & output shaft when in 3rd gear, of course.

The input shaft (4th pix) appears normal. Good sharp edges on the 3rd speed internal/external gear which is a plus for this. (you don't want it popping out of gear.)

Last pix shows the "entrance angle" of the gear - this looks ok and is design.

New or old cluster is the question. A new cluster might have problems meshing with old gears on input and output shafts. You might instead ask about "used" but "acceptable" cluster.

Generally I try to mate good old with good old OR go all new for a transmission. I've gone both paths with different transmissions and get similar non-problematical results.

Joe K

Thanks, Joe that helps confirm what I was thinking.


I just heard from a club member that is putting together a transmission right now for demonstration and he says the cluster in that looks better than mine so he said we could trade.



I'm not looking for perfection right now, maybe in a couple years I'll bite the bullet and get all new gears but right now almost $1000 is just too much to spend. Especially since this transmission had zero problems shifting/popping out of gear before.



What I really don't want to do is buy a nice new cluster and destroy it against old gears.
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