Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

[shew01]

I have a 1931 Victoria that ran fine on Sunday, and I drove it for about 100 miles. The car sat in the garage on Monday, and it would not start on Tuesday. It cranks fine, and I can smell gas when I choke the carburetor.

I have a (Dick Crabtree) rebuilt pop out switch that is about 6 months old. I haven't had any problems with the switch.

I pushed a spark plug tab away from the distributor about 1/4 inch, and I didn't see any spark going from the tab to the top of the plug.

I've read many, many condenser threads. So, today, I replaced the condenser with a new one from Bratton's since that was an easy change. That did not help.

With the ignition switch on (i.e., popped out), I have power going to the movable point arm when the points are open. I have power going to the driver side of the junction box, but I have no power on the passenger side of the junction box.

I'm not sure of the electrical path inside the dash or through the coil, and I don't have a lot of experience with a Model A ignition system. So, I thought I would post to get help. Can someone point me in the right direction?

[jg61hawk]

Here is a copy of a post Mike V posted. LOOK at the junction box ...should be power on both sides. If not the Amp gauge is bad. Jump across the two lugs of the junction box to bypass meter.


Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 174
Default Re: Coil problem?
Mike V Florida has posted this and I think it's wonderful:

This is my generic no spark troubleshooting list,

No Spark
Some possibilities are:
1.Blown or defective fuse (use of a fuse is an aftermarket item)
2.Bad connections at ammeter, or ammeter itself (t0 find out put a jumper wire from one post of the terminal box to the other to take the ammeter out of the circuit temporarily)
3.Bad ignition switch and/or cable, or loose cable connection at the switch.
4.Loose or broken wires at bottom of coil
5.Loose or broken wires inside terminal box
6.Loose, bare or broken pigtail wire under distributor plate, or wire grounding to plate or distributor body
7.Points not opening, or point arm grounding to cam due to worn rubbing block
8.Worn electrode in underside of distributor cap
9.Loose or broken high tension wire from coil to cap
10.Condenser burned out or grounding (some condensers are too long and can touch the distributor body inside)
11.Weak coil
12.Rotor not turning due to loose cam screw or bad timing gear.


Ok now break out a volt meter (a light bulb can give false readings).
Start at the fuse block, you should have voltage on both sides of the fuse. If you only have voltage on one side, replace the fuse or fuse block.

Now with voltage on both sides of the fuse, move up to the junction box. There should be voltage at both terminals. If voltage is present only on one side the problem is at the ampmeter and you should Jumper the ampmeter for now.
You should have voltage on both sides of the coil. If not,
remove the red wire on the coil and check again. If you now have voltage on both sides, you have a problem further on. If the voltage is still only in one side you have a bad coil.

Open the points with a piece of paper and remove the condenser. Turn the key on and you should have voltage at the points.
Replace the condenser and you should still have voltage.

If the voltage is missing, remove the top plate and check for voltage on the bottom plate.

Check if the connector from the ignition switch screwed in too far? Do you have voltage on the wire to the upper plate?

Is this wire shorting to ground or broken?

Remove the paper from the points and see that the points are closed. You should not have 0 volts at the points. If you do, the points are dirty or the distributor is not grounded well to the engine.

[vernlee]

check the fuse by the starter , after checking everything , I checked this fuse last , that was it .

[shew01]

jg61hawk: I jumped the ammeter, but it didn't make a difference. I need to work through the rest of the list.

vernlee: The fuse on the starter looks good.

Should the coil have 6 volts on both poles?

[jg61hawk]

Do you have horn, and lights? At any rate if you are sure there is not 6volts on both junction box terminals stop right there. The power goes to the ampmeter before it travels on to "light up" both sides of junction box. Confirm you have no power on both sides and guys can better help.

You should have voltage on both sides of the coil. If not,
remove the red wire on the coil and check again. If you now have voltage on both sides, you have a problem further on. If the voltage is still only in one side you have a bad coil.

[wmws]

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With the points open if you have power to the movable point arm you electrical system is good up to that point. The problem is that the juice is not going through the points to ground. Either your points are bad or you distributor is not making ground contact with the engine. Try cleaning your points first. That is easy.

[Patrick L.]

What WMWS said.
If there is power to the open point arm then there is power to both sides of the coil and thru the terminal block.
It doesn't sound as though you checked the points closed for no power. Clean the point contacts and check that the distributor set screw and jam nut is/are snug.

[1931 flamingo]

Are you using original points or the "updated" style of points??
Paul in CT

[banjobrad]

Coil maybe?

[shew01]

I got my volt meter out tonight. With the ignition on (i.e., popped out), I'm getting:

6 volts on movable arm with points open (this looks correct)

6 volts on movable arm with points closed (this does not look correct, but I cannot explain it)

6 volts on both sides of the coil

.2 volts on driver side of junction box

0 volts on passenger side of junction box

When I put a jumper across the junction box, I get 0 volts on both sides of the junction box (I cannot explain this)

[shew01]

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

Do you have horn, and lights? At any rate if you are sure there is not 6volts on both junction box terminals stop right there. The power goes to the ampmeter before it travels on to "light up" both sides of junction box. Confirm you have no power on both sides and guys can better help.

You should have voltage on both sides of the coil. If not,
remove the red wire on the coil and check again. If you now have voltage on both sides, you have a problem further on. If the voltage is still only in one side you have a bad coil.

I have horn and lights.

When I turn on the main battery kill switch, I see the ammeter move a tad left. So, the ammeter looks good. Tonight, my multimeter shows that both sides of the coil have 6 volts. Last night, I was using a test light. That light is unreliable.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by wmws

With the points open if you have power to the movable point arm you electrical system is good up to that point. The problem is that the juice is not going through the points to ground. Either your points are bad or you distributor is not making ground contact with the engine. Try cleaning your points first. That is easy.

I'm getting 6 volts with the points closed and open. I'm thinking I should get only 0 volts with the points closed.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Are you using original points or the "updated" style of points??
Paul in CT

I'm using original points.

[GRutter]

Look at the attached image, originally posted by another member. It is one of the best, simplest diagrams to understand the Model A ignition circuit. If you have power to the points if opened and closed, you have dirty points or a grounding problem.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by GRutter

Look at the attached image, originally posted by another member. It is one of the best, simplest diagrams to understand the Model A ignition circuit. If you have power to the points if opened and closed, you have dirty points or a grounding problem.

Thanks. I printed out that diagram a while back. There is another one that seems to be pretty good too.


I’m leaning toward a grounding problem. The voltage is not correct on the junction box or open points, and the car was running too well before it suddenly wouldn’t start. I’m wondering if the rebuilt pop out switch is the culprit.

Both is these diagrams seem to oversimplify the junction box. More than just the ammeter is connected to the junction box.

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[wmws]

Well have you done anything about trying to clean the points or changing them. Lets hear what action you have taken.

[Patrick L.]

Post 6 and 7 haven't been responded to. Sometimes you have to wonder.

[Big hammer]

A weak or poor connection can show voltage and not a good enough connection for power! At one point he had voltage on the movable point, and voltage on the fixed point, I think?
I agree that the problem is probably with the points, but a bad weak loose connection could be the culprit anywhere from the battery to the points. I had a no start checked for voltage at battery, fuse, terminal posts, coil, and the movable side of the points. All was good ! cleaned the points that looked good and went for a drive!

[700rpm]

Check your pigtail in the dissy.

[shew01]

After work, I cleaned the points. No difference.


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[shew01]

I have 6 volts on the movable point arm and the stationary point arm.




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[shew01]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

Check your pigtail in the dissy.

If that wire is shorting out, would that explain 6 volts being on both point arms? If I check the wire, I’ll have to retime the car. I have never timed a Model A, and I would like to avoid introducing yet another variable in the starting process.

Could anything else explain 6 volts on both point arms? Maybe the rebuilt pop out ignition switch?


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[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

What WMWS said.
If there is power to the open point arm then there is power to both sides of the coil and thru the terminal block.
It doesn't sound as though you checked the points closed for no power. Clean the point contacts and check that the distributor set screw and jam nut is/are snug.

I think I posted earlier that both sides of the coil have power. I checked again, and I see 6 volts on both sides of the coil.

The driver side of the junction box gets 6 volts. The passenger side gets 0 volts. Putting a temporary jumper across the junction box studs reduces the voltage to near 0.

I checked the jam nut, and it’s tight. I don’t see the correlation of the jam nut to not having spark.

[wmws]

If the points are closed and the ignition is on you will not get voltage on the switch side of the coil.

[wmws]

Are you getting 6 volts on both sides of the points with the points open. If so that is really weird. It could be that the end of the pigtail wire is grounding out on the upper plate and at the same time the distributer is not making ground with the block.

[Patrick L.]

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When the points are closed there should be no voltage to them because they are supposed to be grounded. The set screw helps with that ground. Somehow you are getting voltage to the stationary point block when you shouldn't. Voltage is either traveling thru the the primary lead [ short to distributor body from a bad cable or being screwed in too far, etc] or there is no path for a ground from distributor body, upper plate, to cylinder head. The set screw and jam nut are part of a ground.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by wmws

If the points are closed and the ignition is on you will not get voltage on the switch side of the junction box. So all sounds normal.

I used a point file earlier to touch up the face of the points. A moment ago, I used a new $20 bill. That will have to do. It didn't start.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by wmws

Are you getting 6 volts on both sides of the points with the points open. If so that is really weird. It could be that the end of the pigtail wire is grounding out on the upper plate and at the same time the distributer is not making ground with the block.

Yes, I get 6 volts on both sides of the points with with points open. The pigtail wire sounds plausible. I just hate to foul up the timing to check it.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

When the points are closed there should be no voltage to them because they are supposed to be grounded. The set screw helps with that ground. Somehow you are getting voltage to the stationary point block when you shouldn't. Voltage is either traveling thru the the primary lead [ short to distributor body from a bad cable or being screwed in too far, etc] or there is no path for a ground from distributor body, upper plate, to cylinder head. The set screw and jam nut are part of a ground.

>>The set screw helps with that ground.

Good point. I hadn't thought about that.

[jm29henry]

A couple of weeks ago I had a road side break down! This may not apply to your situation,but have you check to see if the rotor is turning while you are cranking.Mine was not originally I thought is was my time gear but my shaft at the bottom of the distributor actually rusted away and that was the reason my distributor was not turning, and points not operating. Timing a model a is really nothing to worry about.Jack Baham who post on this site has a excellent YouTube video that shows you a easy full proof method

[GRutter]

It's time to tear into it and figure it out.

The diagram you posted will allow you to Hot Wire your ignition. In order to do that you will need to remove the distributor and the armored cable.

Don't be concerned about the timing... it won't be affected at all. Loosen the jam nut and screw, and lift the distributor out. The tabs on the shafts are offset so you wont get it out of time and won't introduce another unknown.

Start by bypassing the ignition switch as shown on the wiring diagram and try to start it. If it starts with it Hot Wired you've solved the problem. But be aware that with no ignition switch you will need to shut off the gas or choke it out to stop it.

I find it hard to believe that your distributor isn't grounded, but having voltage on the stationary point makes no sense.... But when you pull that distributor out, look at the surfaces and be sure they are clean... also check the screw and jam nut area.

[capndan77]

I’m not sure where you are in this process but hopefully you have resolved the issue. I can only say that my similar issue was the fuse. It did not show signs of being blown but I replaced it and all was good. My visual inspection failed me in this instance. Good luck.

[700rpm]

It sounds to me like you are way overthinking the problem. I don’t know about volts here or volts there. This is a simple car, and I’m just a shade tree mechanic. But I have played with and worked on these cars for over 55 years, so I have some experience. Timing your A is a basic function and a necessary skill if you own a Model A. No need to be afraid of it. It takes maybe 10-15 minutes. It’s worth it just to know if the pigtail is shorting out (which it often does).

I suggest: Pull the distributor, disconnect your ignition cable, and turn the key on. Then scratch the end the cable on a head nut. If you have spark, you have current going into the dissy. Shut off the ign. Put the cable back in. (But not too far). Check the pigtail. No contact with the body (so no short)? Reassemble. Replace the dissy in the head. Turn the ign. on. Open and close your points. You should get a spark at the points. If not make sure you have the proper insulating washer under the point block. If you have spark at the points, reset the timing. Check for spark at the points again. If you have it, you’re good. The basic requirements to making a Model A start are fuel, spark (ignition) and timing. With those, and fundamental clearances and settings, the car should start.
Your car was running OK before this problem. Mike V’s and other suggestions are valid, but do the easy things first. The answer should be simple.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by wmws

If the points are closed and the ignition is on you will not get voltage on the switch side of the junction box. So all sounds normal.

Not sure I understand this, what does the switch have to do with the
junction box.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by jm29henry

A couple of weeks ago I had a road side break down! This may not apply to your situation,but have you check to see if the rotor is turning while you are cranking.Mine was not originally I thought is was my time gear but my shaft at the bottom of the distributor actually rusted away and that was the reason my distributor was not turning, and points not operating. Timing a model a is really nothing to worry about.Jack Baham who post on this site has a excellent YouTube video that shows you a easy full proof method

I checked. The rotor turns as the engine cranks.


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[shew01]

Originally Posted by capndan77

I’m not sure where you are in this process but hopefully you have resolved the issue. I can only say that my similar issue was the fuse. It did not show signs of being blown but I replaced it and all was good. My visual inspection failed me in this instance. Good luck.

Thanks for posting. Earlier, I checked, and I had headlights and horn. Now, I don’t. So, I may have a couple of problems.


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[wmws]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Not sure I understand this, what does the switch have to do with the
junction box.

You are correct. I meant to say the switch side of the coil. I will correct that in the post.

[shew01]

The fuse is good. When removed and held to negative battery terminal, the multimeter gets 6 volts to the positive battery terminal (through the fuse).

With the ignition switch on (popped out) and the fuse removed, I get 6 volts to flywheel side of fuse holder and 0 volts to the radiator side of the fuse holder as expected. I also get 6 volts to both sides of the coil and 6 volts to both junction box studs. The movable point arm has 6 volts, and the stationary point arm gets 6 volts, which doesn’t sound right.

With the ignition on and the fuse in place, I see the following changes. I don’t see any voltage on either end of the fuse (while inserted into its holder), and the passenger side junction box stud drops to 0 volts. All of the other cited measurements are the same.


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[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Not sure I understand this, what does the switch have to do with the
junction box.

The power has to come from somewhere. It comes from the junction box.

[wmws]

Something is very wrong if you are getting voltage to the junction box and coil with the fuse removed. Are you sure your fuse is hooked up correctly.

[Patrick L.]

What you are now saying does not make sense. This is simple. Follow the easy diagnosis procedures some of us have stated.




What is that you're using to hold the points open ? It has to be non-metallic.

From the start.
Power at open point arm, good. That means all is good behind/leading up to it.
Power at closed point block, bad. Thats means points are dirty or not making ground or
primary lead maybe screwed in too far feeding powerto
dist. body.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by wmws

Something is very wrong if you are getting voltage to the junction box and coil with the fuse removed. Are you sure your fuse is hooked up correctly.

It’s the same fuse hookup that the car had when I purchased it a year ago. I’ve driven the car without issue several thousand miles.


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[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

What you are now saying does not make sense. This is simple. Follow the easy diagnosis procedures some of us have stated.

Obviously it is NOT simple, or I would be finished by now. I have be trying to follow advice, especially yours. Your anger is not helping.


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[wmws]

Is the fuse on the starter next to the cable from the battery. Or is it a fuse for the lights.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by wmws

Is the fuse on the starter next to the cable from the battery. Or is it a fuse for the lights.

Here is a picture of the fuse holder. It is my understanding that if the fuse connection does not work, the lights and horn will not work, and the car will not start. I have the fuse out at the moment.




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[shew01]

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Originally Posted by Patrick L.

What you are now saying does not make sense. This is simple. Follow the easy diagnosis procedures some of us have stated.




What is that you're using to hold the points open ? It has to be non-metallic.

From the start.
Power at open point arm, good. That means all is good behind/leading up to it.
Power at closed point block, bad. Thats means points are dirty or not making ground or
primary lead maybe screwed in too far feeding powerto
dist. body.

I’m using a popsicle stick to hold the points open.

I removed the distributor to take the ignition switch out of the circuit and replace it with an emergency jumper I bought at a vendor site. I have the same behavior. So, no, I don’t think the lead is screwed too far into the distributor.


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[wmws]

The fuse holder looks normal in your picture but you said
"With the ignition switch on (popped out) and the fuse removed, I get 6 volts to flywheel side of fuse holder and 0 volts to the radiator side of the fuse holder as expected."
This is just opposite of what you should have. If your statement is correct you have something wrong with the fuse holder.
You seem to have several problems, in that sometimes you have power at one point and then you don't. I would take one wire at a time at the junction box and the coil and clean up the terminals well. If that doesn't help maybe it is time to get some help from a club member or a mechanic friend who can help you. It is very difficult for us to diagnose form afar.

[wmarcy528]

Shew01, please continue posting your results because I’m experiencing similar problems with my model A. Expect when I take the fuse out I get 6 v on the clip near the battery stud on the starter and 0v from the other clip. I’m sorry for your frustration but you are helping me.


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[Ernie Vitucci]

Good Morning...That looks like a very old fuse holder. Perhaps just remove it and see what happens with things in the stock position...I repaired an 'A' a couple of years ago that gave me fits until I figured out that the fuse holder was bad. Removed it and the car ran as it should...got a new one...heavy duty from Arizona Model A and all has been fine! Good luck. Ernie in Arizona

[Patrick L.]

I'm not angry, just frustrated that I can't explain things better than I am.

It sounds that at times that your test light or volt meter ground lead isn't always grounding.

With your popsicle stick between the contacts are you still getting voltage at both contacts ?

[jg61hawk]

Based on what you wrote (below) the first thing to do is do away with the fuse block and all. Simply put the wire on the starter switch where the battery cable is. It makes NO SENSE to have any voltage if the fuse is gone if it's installed properly. Take the wire from the starter to the fuse block off as well. Something right there sure sounds messed up.

With the ignition switch on (popped out) and the fuse removed, I get 6 volts to flywheel side of fuse holder and 0 volts to the radiator side of the fuse holder as expected. I also get 6 volts to both sides of the coil and 6 volts to both junction box studs. The movable point arm has 6 volts, and the stationary point arm gets 6 volts, which doesn’t sound right.

With the ignition on and the fuse in place, I see the following changes. I don’t see any voltage on either end of the fuse (while inserted into its holder), and the passenger side junction box stud drops to 0 volts. All of the other cited measurements are the same.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

I'm not angry, just frustrated that I can't explain things better than I am.

It sounds that at times that your test light or volt meter ground lead isn't always grounding.

With your popsicle stick between the contacts are you still getting voltage at both contacts ?

I’m scratching metal to make sure I’m getting an accurate reading. The volt meter seems to be consistent.

I’ve used the popsicle stick for all of the measurements I’ve reported.


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[shew01]

Originally Posted by wmws

The fuse holder looks normal in your picture but you said
"With the ignition switch on (popped out) and the fuse removed, I get 6 volts to flywheel side of fuse holder and 0 volts to the radiator side of the fuse holder as expected."
This is just opposite of what you should have. If your statement is correct you have something wrong with the fuse holder.
You seem to have several problems, in that sometimes you have power at one point and then you don't. I would take one wire at a time at the junction box and the coil and clean up the terminals well. If that doesn't help maybe it is time to get some help from a club member or a mechanic friend who can help you. It is very difficult for us to diagnose form afar.

Understood. I’ve called our closest member, but I haven’t been able to reach him.


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[jg61hawk]

Based on the below you posted I'm asking does the amp meter still discharge every time you turn on the battery (not the key...just the battery)? I am thinking if the system discharges with KEY OFF and just turning on battery you have a problem right there at the battery connections or the fuse block. Check the battery hold down frame make sure the posts are not hitting the frame and shorting to the car. It sounds like it's right in this area.

I have horn and lights.

When I turn on the main battery kill switch, I see the ammeter move a tad left. So, the ammeter looks good. Tonight, my multimeter shows that both sides of the coil have 6 volts. Last night, I was using a test light. That light is unreliable.

[jg61hawk]

What could be worse than one of our old cars not working!!!! Oh yeah all that other stuff....Relax it'll get fixed it ALWAYS DOES. It's a puzzle and at least you're HOME!!!

[jm29henry]

Shew01,
I first want to sympathize with your situation! This is not the fun part but this is apart of learning. Personally I am not a fan of parts swapping with knowing why I am changing them but if you have or know of someone with a good working distributor and is willing to let you try it may narrow it down and plus it would a good way to learn how to time your car ? Best of luck to you don’t give up no car or wire are smarter than you

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by shew01

I’m scratching metal to make sure I’m getting an accurate reading. The volt meter seems to be consistent.

I’ve used the popsicle stick for all of the measurements I’ve reported.


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Please, please answer my question. Thats part of the frustration.

Are you getting voltage at the open movable point arm ? I know you are saying you're getting 6v.

Are you getting voltage at the stationary point block with the popsicle installed ? This is what we need to know.

Are you getting voltage [6v] at both points contacts when popsicle is removed ? You have said yes, but, want to make sure.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

does the amp meter still discharge every time you turn on the battery (not the key...just the battery)? I am thinking if the system discharges with KEY OFF and just turning on battery you have a problem right there at the battery connections or the fuse block. Check the battery hold down frame make sure the posts are not hitting the frame and shorting to the car. It sounds like it's right in this area.

I have horn and lights.

No, the ammeter does not show discharge when I turn on the batter kill switch. I no longer have horn or lights. I do have turn signal lights, but they go through a different fuse. Although I’ve engaged the started a number of times for testing today, the battery is holding at 6.27 volts.

I rechecked the fuse holder, and I think I checked it incorrectly earlier. This picture is checking the radiator side of the holder with the black probe and the flywheel side with the red probe without a fuse installed. The holder itself seems good.



The fuse still tests okay too. In this picture, I have the fuse in the black alligator clip, and I’m holding it against the negative battery terminal. The red probe is on the positive battery terminal. I think the fuse and holder are working properly.




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[shew01]

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

What could be worse than one of our old cars not working!!!! Oh yeah all that other stuff....Relax it'll get fixed it ALWAYS DOES. It's a puzzle and at least you're HOME!!!

Oddly, I enjoy puzzles. This time, I seem to be missing a piece or two. ;-)

[shew01]

Originally Posted by jm29henry

Shew01,
Personally I am not a fan of parts swapping with knowing why I am changing them but if you have or know of someone with a good working distributor and is willing to let you try it may narrow it down and plus it would a good way to learn how to time your car ? Best of luck to you don’t give up no car or wire are smarter than you

The only part that I've swapped so far is the condenser, and it did not change anything.

I do have a new Nu-Rex distributor that I purchased from the guy who sold me the car a year ago. However, I cannot get the new distributor to seat fully into the head (even after twisting the cam to match up with old shaft). The new distributor comes with a new distributor shaft that apparently only mates with the new distributor, and, unfortunately, I cannot get the old distributor shaft out of the car. So, my new distributor is useless to me, at least for now.

[jg61hawk]

Ref. below as you posted: I tend to think the below can't be correct. If you put the black lead on one side of the fuse holder and the red lead on the other and get a voltage reading of 6.27 that tells me the holder is grounded on one side and charged on the other...that seems very odd to me. Also can you just use the meter to test continuity with the fuse...just one side and the other and the meter beeps or reads 0. Please eliminate the fuse and holder ASAP. You understand the fuse holder only allows the voltage to move from the wire on the battery to the other wire...it can't be positive and negative at the same time. Use the engine block as your red positive ground and put your black tester on each end of the fuse holder. Only one end should have juice.

I rechecked the fuse holder, and I think I checked it incorrectly earlier. This picture is checking the radiator side of the holder with the black probe and the flywheel side with the red probe without a fuse installed. The holder itself seems good.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Please, please answer my question. Thats part of the frustration.

Are you getting voltage at the open movable point arm ? I know you are saying you're getting 6v.

Are you getting voltage at the stationary point block with the popsicle installed ? This is what we need to know.

Are you getting voltage [6v] at both points contacts when popsicle is removed ? You have said yes, but, want to make sure.

Yes, I am getting 6 volts on the moveable arm *AND* the stationary arm with the popsicle stick between the points.

I tested again, and I still get 6 volts on the points with nothing between them.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by jm29henry

plus it would a good way to learn how to time your car

I'm not opposed to learning to time my car. (Actually, that was my plan with the new Nu-Rex distributor that I posted about earlier in this thread.) However, I've read a number of threads about timing and retiming a Model A that I'd rather not risk breaking timing that has worked extremely well in the past. Normally, my car starts on the first crank with a single pull on the choke.

I did run across a Jack Bahm video ( https://youtu.be/mwirH7f0a9o ) that shows how to time a Model A. I worked through the video (without actually changing the timing on the car). I found TDC using the dimple, and I (crudely) soldered together a 6 volt test light that works. (This is a different test light than what I was using earlier in this thread.) However, I couldn't get the new test light to come on with advancing the spark a couple of clicks. I don't know if my current problem impacts that or not. But, I'm trying to change as little as possible in hopes of making debugging easier. I'll check around to see if I can find another distributor.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

can you just use the meter to test continuity with the fuse...just one side and the other and the meter beeps or reads 0.


Please eliminate the fuse and holder ASAP. You understand the fuse holder only allows the voltage to move from the wire on the battery to the other wire...it can't be positive and negative at the same time. Use the engine block as your red positive ground and put your black tester on each end of the fuse holder. Only one end should have juice.

Continuity:



Radiator side fuse holder connection:



Flywheel side connection:




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[wmws]

Maybe that popsicle stick has some metal in it. Just for fun try putting a piece of paper between the points and see if that makes no voltage at the stationary point. I understand your not wanting to take the distributor apart and add another unknown but I do think your problem is inside the distributor. Hopefully you can borrow one soon and see if that helps.
At least you are helping to keep a bunch of old guys brain cells stimulated.

[Patrick L.]

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OK.
If you have voltage to both point contacts when they are closed, then, there is no ground. That can come from dirty point contacts, stationary block not grounding to upper plate. upper plate not grounding to housing, housing not grounding to cylinder head.

If you have voltage to both contacts while they are open, then, there is a primary lead problem as in it being screwed in too far or a wire connection contacting the housing or upper plate.

Don't worry about removing the distributor. Re-timing is not required if the points are not changed.

[GRutter]

Shew -
I think I may understand what you are doing incorrectly that may be adding to everyone's confusion. In post 58, you picture reading voltage ACROSS the fuseholder. Your voltage measurements must always be taken to GROUND.

So for example, when you reported that you had voltage on both sides of the fuse holder with the fuse OPEN and Pop-Out Ignition ON, everyone responded that it wasn't possible.... that something is very wrong.

Please try the following and report your findings back for each of the following steps:

Take the RED (Positive) lead of your meter, and find a good place to connect it to chassis GROUND, and LEAVE IT THERE. Take all meter readings this way.

1. Start at the fuse. With the fuse INSTALLED, insure that you have 6v on BOTH sides. (again, only using the black lead on your meter, with the red lead connected to a good chassis ground)
2. Check the terminal box. You should have 6v on BOTH posts.
3. With ignition OFF, check the coil. You should have 6v on BOTH sides of the coil.
4. Separate the points with your popsicle stick. With the ignition ON, you should have 6v on BOTH sides of the coil, and you should have 6v on the movable arm in the distributor points.
5. Be certain that your points can close and are not on a cam lobe, and remove the popsicle stick. You should have 0v on one side of the coil, and 6v on the other side.

Please report back with what you have, and we should be able to get you going.

Best regards
George

[shew01]

Originally Posted by wmws

Just for fun try putting a piece of paper between the points and see if that makes no voltage at the stationary point.

I tried a business card, and the behavior did not change.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by GRutter

In post 58, you picture reading voltage ACROSS the fuseholder. Your voltage measurements must always be taken to GROUND.

That is correct. I was attempting to show that I don't have a short inside the fuse holder itself (because there was some doubt raised in earlier posts about the fuse holder connection). Sorry for the confusion.

I'll try to work through your suggestions as I find time. Today looks like a full schedule.

Thanks for the response.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

OK.
If you have voltage to both point contacts when they are closed, then, there is no ground. That can come from dirty point contacts, stationary block not grounding to upper plate. upper plate not grounding to housing, housing not grounding to cylinder head.

If you have voltage to both contacts while they are open, then, there is a primary lead problem as in it being screwed in too far or a wire connection contacting the housing or upper plate.

Don't worry about removing the distributor. Re-timing is not required if the points are not changed.

Patrick,

I checked again this morning. With a business card between the points, I have 6 volts to the moveable point arm *and* the stationary block. I still have 6 volts to the moveable point arm *and* the stationary block with the points closed.

I don't think the points are dirty. I have used a point file on them (they appear to be fitting together squarely as they should), and I have run a $20 bill through them and a clean business card through them.

[Patrick L.]

Try cleaning the contacts with a rag and alcohol.

If the contacts are making good contact then the problem should be grounding. The power thru the stationary contact has to go to ground.

So you are losing the ground somewhere from that contact to the cylinder head, or, you are getting power backwards thru the primary cable.

[Razkid]

A $20 bill is too smooth due to greater circulation. You should use at least a $500 bill or better yet a $1000 bill. Sorry, couldn't resist but I do hope you get your problem fixed soon. If you have your meter connected as GRutter explained in post #67 and you still have 6V on the stationary block with the points open then I agree with Patrick L's reply and it is time to remove the top plate in the distributor to see what is going on. Don't be afraid of learning how to time the engine. You will need to do it someday as maintenance on the car anyway.

[Big hammer]

Shew 01
Back when you first had a no start, you stated that you changed the condsener, on the electrical connection of the condsener under the screw there's suppose to be an insulating washer. This washer can be a pain to install, check to make sure that connection isn't grounding out.
We are all hoping/ wishing that you can get it running !

[GRutter]

Lets make sure your distributor is grounded in the block.
You may have already done this, but with the points OPEN, take a voltage measurement from either of the junction box posts to the fixed point on the distributor. If you read 0 volts, then you have a grounding problem. If you read 6 volts (expected result), then the distributor is grounded.

[jm29henry]

Shew what’s the latest looking for an update?!

[jg61hawk]

No gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shew01]

Originally Posted by GRutter

Shew -
I think I may understand what you are doing incorrectly that may be adding to everyone's confusion. In post 58, you picture reading voltage ACROSS the fuseholder. Your voltage measurements must always be taken to GROUND.

So for example, when you reported that you had voltage on both sides of the fuse holder with the fuse OPEN and Pop-Out Ignition ON, everyone responded that it wasn't possible.... that something is very wrong.

Please try the following and report your findings back for each of the following steps:

Take the RED (Positive) lead of your meter, and find a good place to connect it to chassis GROUND, and LEAVE IT THERE. Take all meter readings this way.

GRutter,

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING!!!! I think I found it. I have no formal training nor much experience in debugging electrical issues, especially on a 6 volt car, and positive ground has always "messed with my mind."

In all of my earlier posts, I was always starting with the black probe on the negative battery cable that attaches to the starter or the radiator side of the fuse holder (simply because both of them were easy to connect the probe alligator clip to with a sure connection, and I didn't realize that would impact the measurements). When I measured as you suggested, I found that one of the junction box studs did not have power. I put a temporary jumper between the two studs, and the horn started working, the lights started working, and the car actually started. YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently, the ammeter was on its way to failure and was intermittent, and it eventually permanently failed during the testing of this ordeal. (I started a thread about ammeters awhile back, wondering if my ammeter was working correctly.)

The (thin) wire jumper that I used across the junction box is a temporary fix just to get the car started. I need to find another ammeter (which is another can of worms because new ammeters reportedly do not work well).

THANKS, EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP AND FOR HAVING PATIENCE WITH ME. This has definitely been yet another Model A learning experience for me.

Questions:

1. Is it safe to drive the car with a jumper across the junction box studs until I can locate a replacement ammeter?

2. If it is safe to run a temporary jumper, what gauge wire should I use for the jumper.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Big hammer

Shew 01
Back when you first had a no start, you stated that you changed the condsener, on the electrical connection of the condsener under the screw there's suppose to be an insulating washer. This washer can be a pain to install, check to make sure that connection isn't grounding out.
We are all hoping/ wishing that you can get it running !

Hmmm... I did not see any insulating washer. There are two screws on the condenser. Which one is supposed to have the insulating washer? The screw that is recessed into the distributor (on the driver side)? Or, the one on the passenger side of the distributor?

[shew01]

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

No gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, there was plenty of gas. LOL When it finally started, I had a cloud of smoke in the garage. I'm surprised it didn't backfire through the muffler.

[GRutter]

So glad you got it figured out and happy I could help.

Yes, it is absolutely safe to run your car with a jumper between the two studs on the junction box. It effectively only removes the ammeter from the circuit.
Use the same guage wire as currently running to the ammeter.

Alternatively, you could put both wires on the same terminal on the back of the ammeter until you get a replacement, but of course that would require that you unscrew the dash.

The only issue is you won't be able to see your charging or discharge rate. I suggest you use your battery disconnect switch, if you have one, until you replace your ammeter

[Big hammer]

Originally Posted by shew01

Hmmm... I did not see any insulating washer. There are two screws on the condenser. Which one is supposed to have the insulating washer? The screw that is recessed into the distributor (on the driver side)? Or, the one on the passenger side of the distributor?

Driver side, the recessed screw, insulating washer is inside the dizzy.

Ya you got it running!!!!

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Big hammer

Driver side, the recessed screw, insulating washer is inside the dizzy.

Ya you got it running!!!!

Thanks. I see the screw and washers on the Bratton’s site. I plan to make an order soon.


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[GRutter]

I disagree with installing an insulating washer when installing the condenser.
You want a good tight electrical connection between the end of the condenser and the tang on the lower distributor plate assembly.

An insulating washer in this location does not contribute to a better electrical connection with the condenser.

Be certain that the screw does not bottom-out in the condenser to insure that you have a tight electrical connection.

I see that part on Bratton's site, but have never seen an insulating washer documented anywhere else.

[Bob C]

The washer does not go between the condenser and tang.

[Big hammer]

Thanks Bob ! That's the washer I was talking about.

[GRutter]

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The picture from BobC from 2004 does not accurately portray the original distributor assembly.

The condenser was held in place to the body of the distributor by part 26457-S7 (#8-32x1/4" cadmium screw)

A lock-washer - part 34842-S (#8 heavy lockwasher) was placed under the head of that screw.

The condenser was screwed to the lower plate bus bar with part 27053-S5 (#10-32x3/16" copper screw)

An insulating washer in that location serves no electrical purpose, and would require a longer screw to accommodate the thickness of the insulating washer, and it would place the head of the screw closer to the distributor body, where it is more likely to short out.

[Mulletwagon]

Interesting caper. Can't process voltage at the fixed point. Just curious - is there continuity between the fixed point (points open, key off) and say a head bolt ? Seems like something amiss in the distro. Please share the solution when known.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by Mulletwagon

Interesting caper. Can't process voltage at the fixed point. Just curious - is there continuity between the fixed point (points open, key off) and say a head bolt ? Seems like something amiss in the distro. Please share the solution when known.

See post #77.

[shew01]

This evening, I got a permanent fix in place. A fellow club member let me have a spare ammeter that he had put away a while back. The car starts fine again.

I also got a spare distributor from a club member for the next time I have ignition problems. I need to check that out while the car is working. ;-)


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[Purdy Swoft]

Try sanding the points , even if they are new .

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by Bob C

The washer does not go between the condenser and tang.

Altho I do have used the fiber washer in the past, I have always wondered what it's purpose is/was? Is it just used for a backing for the "wax like plug"?

I don't have that washer installed at the present because it doesn't allow the "new" rubber plug now available to seat properly. Not original but keeps the dust out.

[GRutter]

See my post #86 above and look at the Ford Parts Price List.
There is no fiber washer that I have seen documented, nor does it make sense to put an insulator at that location. The head of the copper screw is part of the electrical connection.

[aermotor]

Okay guys I have the same problem only different - Maybe. First off I don't have a fuse in my start circuit and have done everything that was suggested to shew 01. I did all the basic trouble shooting and found no problems. My problem started when I had a Mallory dist. The car was running fine then no start. I replaced the Mallory with original dist. New upper and lower plates (modern), every thing that was suggested for 01's problem was tried. In trouble shooting
every ignition component was replaced 1 by 1 from my running car except for the new condenser that came with the new upper plate. For the life of me I can not get a high tension spark - note, once again every thing was replaced from a running car (and put back) on the running car. The T box and Inst. panel harnesses were replaced. On the ammeter I just disconnected both wires and clamped them together. Perhaps Ryan could start a new thread - I am sure I will get many responses. HELP, as a fire won't help with no insurance. Lights work.

John

[aermotor]

Pretty neat that jg61hawk got it right on thread post #2

John

[Ruth]

Yeah, happens a lot. A person asks a question but does not follow or understand the advice. Then the thread turns into a lesson in frustration for every one.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by aermotor

Okay guys I have the same problem only different - Maybe. First off I don't have a fuse in my start circuit and have done everything that was suggested to shew 01. I did all the basic trouble shooting and found no problems. My problem started when I had a Mallory dist. The car was running fine then no start. I replaced the Mallory with original dist. New upper and lower plates (modern), every thing that was suggested for 01's problem was tried. In trouble shooting
every ignition component was replaced 1 by 1 from my running car except for the new condenser that came with the new upper plate. For the life of me I can not get a high tension spark - note, once again every thing was replaced from a running car (and put back) on the running car. The T box and Inst. panel harnesses were replaced. On the ammeter I just disconnected both wires and clamped them together. Perhaps Ryan could start a new thread - I am sure I will get many responses. HELP, as a fire won't help with no insurance. Lights work.

John

Were the points gapped/timed when the distributor was installed using the timing pin and with the spark lever at full retard?



With the timing pin locating top TDC and spark advance at full retard does your rotor/distributor body look like this?


----------

What year is your A? On 29s and later with Ignition on and cranking the motor you should see a slight wiggle on the Ammeter of about 1-2 amps. The 1-2 amp wiggle indicates the points opening closing in a working ignition primary circuit.

Includes - wiring, ignition switch and wiring, coil primary, points, ammeter, condenser not shorted, and the distributor shaft is rotating.

If the ammeter is showing a constant discharge with the ignition switch on then a possible shorted condenser, or there are other possibilities.

I am not familiar enough with the pop out style ignition switch, but have heard that a defect switch/cable will cause a no start/ignition symptom.

Using a voltmeter or test lamp you can troubleshoot.

-----------
If the above ammeter test works then space a spark plug strap lead about 1/8 inch away from a spark plug, ignition on, use the starter rod under the hood to crank the motor and you should see a nice blue spark.


If no spark then check -
that the Rotor is installed correctly and when the cap strap springs are released the cap should spring up slightly which indicates the rotor contact plate is mating against the cap contact.


the high voltage coil wire contacts on the lead, coil, and dist cap. Ohm wire for extremely low ohms.


the coil secondary. Ignition off, remove the large coil wire a the coil, remove both small wires on the coil terminals. Ohm from the large coil wire contact to each small terminal individually - should be 7 K ohms to 15 K ohms.


Hope this helps, you possibly have been through all or part of this, sometimes helps to start over and check again.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Picture of the distributor Body/rotor, did not go through on above post.

[aermotor]

Thanks all for the responses. Got it running by jumping the ammeter. I guess the ammeter is often missed as it is not really emphasized in all the trouble shooting procedures. I did not consider it since it's only about 3 mos. old and the needle acted normal for my car - mostly day driving w/o lights and it was starting very easy so not much battery drain. Lesson learned, just because it's new from a reputable supplier doesn't mean it isn't junk and not to overlook that possibility.


John

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by aermotor

Thanks all for the responses. Got it running by jumping the ammeter. I guess the ammeter is often missed as it is not really emphasized in all the trouble shooting procedures. I did not consider it since it's only about 3 mos. old and the needle acted normal for my car - mostly day driving w/o lights and it was starting very easy so not much battery drain. Lesson learned, just because it's new from a reputable supplier doesn't mean it isn't junk and not to overlook that possibility.


John

New repro ammeters are known to be problematic, is best to find an old original ammeter. Perhaps post here on the Barn and see if someone has an original they will sell you. Otherwise search Internet/Model A sites, and if you spot them at a swap meet pick up a couple as spares. Originals are getting harder to find.


I do not know if there is anyone who repairs them. Others on the Barn may know and can chime in.