Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-13-2019, 07:58 AM   #21
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,820
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by russcc View Post
Thank goodness I got the "Nostalgia" heads for the 59L block from Barney and Donna on a visit to his shop several years before he passed away. The entire process from casting to machining is impeccable, and that's with a former machinist's eye for perfection.
Funny story. So when I ordered mine from Barney, he gave me a price shipped to NJ. If I recall correctly, the cost was $675 shipped. I still have the receipt and water slide decal Barney sent in the box. This was sometime in the early '00's.

About a week later, Barney calls me and says I owe $4.75 in additional shipping and if I would kindly mail the difference to him. I gladly did, but thought that was an interesting phone call. RIP Mr. Navarro.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2019, 11:34 AM   #22
19Fordy
Senior Member
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 8,181
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Tim. You did the honorable thing.
19Fordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 05-13-2019, 03:54 PM   #23
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 3,877
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

“It would be interesting to see how those heads are machined after casting.
Quality control seems lacking.”

I can tell exactly how they were machined by looking at the tool marks and that is not the right way to do it. Fastest, maybe, but not right. With just minimally more time, a mirror finish could be achieved.
Misplaced holes, poorly aligned water outlets and spotface angles off are usually machine setup faults, not engineering faults.

Many products these days are done the fastest way that will “get by”.
A sad thing about these many products is the marketing department.
They have people giving out information about things they don’t have a clue how they work in real life applications. They have never seen or done it themselves. The company may be owned by the nicest guy you ever met that holds world records and gives all kinds of money to medical research and the homeless, but has a very poor employee training program.
I don’t know what the answer is but I don’t like dealing with it every day.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2019, 11:24 AM   #24
burly
Senior Member
 
burly's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bowling Green, Ky.
Posts: 181
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19Fordy View Post
THANK YOU GOSFAST for doing that homework. Maybe they are hoping to sell their heads to folks who really just open the box and bolt them on expecting that they are
up to specs. and very high quality. Pretty sad considering the cost of heads these days.

And considering of those 3 brands the Navarro are the most expensive.
burly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2019, 12:28 PM   #25
Chris Haynes
Senior Member
 
Chris Haynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: North Hills, CA and Pine Grove, CA
Posts: 2,470
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
I wonder who's making them now??
Just another shoddy product from H&H. Hatchet & Hammer.
__________________
1921 Runabout
1930 Tudor
Early 1930 AA
Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
Chris Haynes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 05:14 PM   #26
Bored&Stroked
Senior Member
 
Bored&Stroked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,725
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
That is a shame - Barney would NOT like to hear about this. I bought a few sets of his heads from him, along with blower manifolds, etc (back in the early 2000's). Barney always did extremely high quality work. The only chambers I've seen on his heads were cast - and at the right depth to run a .425 lift cam with .050 head gaskets. I always loved the work that Barney did - guess I'm fortunate to have "original stuff" . . . and I'll stay away from the "new" ones that H&H is making. The dumb part is if they had the correct CNC programs, machine fixturing/setup and operators - they should be dead-nuts correct (that is what CNC does). But any machine/program process - is only as good as the setup and operator. Sure seems to be lacking in both departments!

Here are the chambers on the heads I have on my 284 cube motor in the 32 Cab:

2015-07-17 18.15.37 copy.jpg
Bored&Stroked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 07:35 PM   #27
Flathead Fever
Senior Member
 
Flathead Fever's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Yucaipa, CA
Posts: 599
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by old Tom View Post
In 1961 I bought a set a Sharp heads from Al,s speed shop in Aurora Il. I Never used them yet I Hope they are OK now after reading this. They are for the 59A motor.
I spent a day with Al Sharp in his garage. That guy was a master pattern maker. Really nice guy. I run his heads just because of what a decent guy he was. Sharp speed equipment set a lot of records. I think it probably some of the best parts made.

I do not like the look of the new castings, like the Edelbrock block letter heads, they look terrible. The texture of the sand they use does not leave a finish like the originals. The way they mill off the tops of the lettering turns me off. You can spot that they are repros from a long way off. The metallurgy and casting techniques have improved but I d rather have heads or an intake that Navarro, Evans, Edelbrock or Sharp once had their hands on. Its all about the history for me. I use to want to know which equipment was the best. Then I met Al Sharp and I wanted Sharp heads. Then I met Johnny Ryan of the SCTA Gophers club and I wanted Evans heads because he had worked Earl Evans casting heads. Then I became friends with Jack Calori that set the 1947 SCTA Class "C" Roadster Record. He ran a Clay Smith 272 cam. Then I wanted a Clay Smith cam, I just had two 272 cams ground by them. Certain parts when I see them remind me of these different guys. I know longer care about which intakes flow the best. Its which ones remind me of the old hot rodders I knew. I spent a couple day's with Kong Jackson. After that I had to have a Kong distributor. My ultimate flathead would be a combination of the parts associated with all these guys. A piece of them is riding along with you. I miss those guys. That really was the greatest generation.
Flathead Fever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 08:39 PM   #28
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 3,877
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Too bad no one will sell you heads without the dome machined in them.
It would cut production costs for them.
Sure would save a lot of work for us.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 07:48 AM   #29
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 7,581
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Due to the fact that the stock 8ba and EAB heads have a very good combustion chamber shape, I'm considering having the chamber filled with 10/15 cc's of brass to increase the compression. Done right, no machining is necessary. Except for setting piston to head clearance and valve clearance. I know a shop that can do it, and will check the cost. Might be cheaper than the Aluminum stuff available today. I'll get better flow and higher CR and no corrosion. For those of you who didn't race back in the 50's this was a common practice.
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 08:25 AM   #30
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,406
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
Due to the fact that the stock 8ba and EAB heads have a very good combustion chamber shape, I'm considering having the chamber filled with 10/15 cc's of brass to increase the compression. Done right, no machining is necessary. Except for setting piston to head clearance and valve clearance. I know a shop that can do it, and will check the cost. Might be cheaper than the Aluminum stuff available today. I'll get better flow and higher CR and no corrosion. For those of you who didn't race back in the 50's this was a common practice.
I have a question Ron: Where do you put the brass so it does not interfere with the flow? Thanks!
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 08:43 AM   #31
GOSFAST
Senior Member
 
GOSFAST's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,040
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

I would just like to add this, don't give up on these heads just yet.

My customer (Joe) will be speaking with H&H when these heads arrive back there. He may come back with some interesting info, I hope!

If these heads could just bypass the CNC'ing program I think they may be acceptible to use. This should affect the pricing on a positive note also, no "excess" machining would be needed, only the basic! I would like to know the "as-cast" chamber volumes, we have the ability to alter this number some, we'll see where this all goes? About 70 "as-cast" cc's would be a nice target number, we can mill them smaller or rework the chambers for a bit more, with 70 as the target we could vary the same casting from 64 (nominal) to 76 (nominal).

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I have to admit H&H is probably the very first vendor I got absolutely no "static" over the specific reasons for the heads to be returned and they DID listen closely. Mike seems to be very interested in some sort of compromise, again, we'll see where all this goes. Other than the excess machining the heads appear to "fit-the-bill"! I'll bring this post back when I can add more (maybe better) info.
GOSFAST is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 09:36 AM   #32
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,820
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

I don’t know Mike personally, but the few times I did speak to him, we had good conversations. I’m hoping this all works out for the best. We need all the flathead folks we can get.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 02:04 PM   #33
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 3,877
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
Due to the fact that the stock 8ba and EAB heads have a very good combustion chamber shape, I'm considering having the chamber filled with 10/15 cc's of brass to increase the compression. Done right, no machining is necessary. Except for setting piston to head clearance and valve clearance. I know a shop that can do it, and will check the cost. Might be cheaper than the Aluminum stuff available today. I'll get better flow and higher CR and no corrosion. For those of you who didn't race back in the 50's this was a common practice.
If you are going to do that, try filling the dome and using flat top pistons.
You can get enough compression to run alcohol then.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 03:38 PM   #34
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 7,581
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Pete
My options are limited to a 258 ci displacement. So CR is hard to get. Having flow tested most stock and aftermarket heads. The EAB is probably the best. Thats why they give almost 8;1 on a 276 and with the small piston clearance make for great throttle response. I'd like to have 8.5/9 on the 258 engine and the net valve lift with the D 410 cam is 390. If the new port works, I'll need the better flow of the stock heads. Now, where do you put the brass?? 10cc of brass is about a 5/8 cube in area. If he still has the fixture to hold the heads I can melt it in the transfer area at an angle towards the exhaustside. The fixture was a double gas burner from the dark ages. it held the head about 2" abouve the burners while the head was clamped to it. He heated the head up to some temp that he tested with a stick of something. Then used his acc touch to ment in the brass.. Once it was done he through an abstouse blanket over it. I might skip that part. Gota give JWL some credit here.
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 05:39 PM   #35
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 3,877
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
Pete
My options are limited to a 258 ci displacement. So CR is hard to get. Having flow tested most stock and aftermarket heads. The EAB is probably the best. Thats why they give almost 8;1 on a 276 and with the small piston clearance make for great throttle response. I'd like to have 8.5/9 on the 258 engine and the net valve lift with the D 410 cam is 390. If the new port works, I'll need the better flow of the stock heads. Now, where do you put the brass?? 10cc of brass is about a 5/8 cube in area. If he still has the fixture to hold the heads I can melt it in the transfer area at an angle towards the exhaustside. The fixture was a double gas burner from the dark ages. it held the head about 2" abouve the burners while the head was clamped to it. He heated the head up to some temp that he tested with a stick of something. Then used his acc touch to ment in the brass.. Once it was done he through an abstouse blanket over it. I might skip that part. Gota give JWL some credit here.
I have never done an engine that small but the same principles should apply as a big one except not as great. You may have to settle for a max of 11 to 1. I can get 14 to 1 on a 321 inch engine.
First, get a set of flat top gas ported 2 ring pistons with narrow low tension rings that come to the deck. Set final piston to head clearance to .035.

Fill the dome on the heads so they will finish flat in that area.
Measure the transfer area at it's max. depth. Fill that part so it will finish about 20% less than original. If you can fill the valve area any to get your .040 clearance, do that.
You can get the job done ok with brass and it will work but if it was me, I would TIG weld it with ER70 rod with preheat, peening and slow cool.

If you put a vacuum pump on that engine and get 15 inches of Hg. you will gain about 20 hp. That will require some minor sealing mods but I can walk you through that if need be.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 06:04 PM   #36
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 3,877
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

I probably should mention also that a 30 degree valve job with round corners on the seats will gain 10%. You may have a problem finding someone with the cutters for that though.
Most guys that do World of Outlaws and Nascar engines have them.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 06:27 PM   #37
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 7,581
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Now I have something to think about. however I have the pistons and crank assy. Cam and lifters. If any of this works, it will be food for others to persue. At 86, I'll be lucky to finish this one
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 08:47 PM   #38
JWL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia
Posts: 2,034
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

If you recall I covered the installation, with pictures, and sealing issues associated with crankcase vacuum pumping, in my book. I do not recommend for long term use unless lower vacuum levels are set or there are modifications made to deal with wrist pin problems.

Picking up 20 HP is something we can all wish for but is rather optimistic. Of course I have only examined and tested the results on 4 different Flathead engines with a maximum gain of about 6 HP. It is possible to get a 15 to 20 HP improvement with wet sump overhead valve engines. Most dry sumps do not need additional vacuum pumps.
JWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 10:29 PM   #39
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 3,877
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWL View Post
If you recall I covered the installation, with pictures, and sealing issues associated with crankcase vacuum pumping, in my book.

> I appreciate you plugging your book on the forum. It is good for business. They won't let me do that on here.

I do not recommend for long term use unless lower vacuum levels are set or there are modifications made to deal with wrist pin problems.

> There are several more than pin problems to deal with. I assumed we were talking about a race engine because welding up heads for compression is NOT normally done on street engines.

Picking up 20 HP is something we can all wish for but is rather optimistic.

> Actually, that is a conservative number.

Of course I have only examined and tested the results on 4 different Flathead engines with a maximum gain of about 6 HP.

> 4 engines? 6 hp..Ok, I get it. You are talking very conservative street engines. Apples and pomegranates.

It is possible to get a 15 to 20 HP improvement with wet sump overhead valve engines.

> Why does the bottom end of an engine like we are talking about (V8) know what type of heads are up above??

Most dry sumps do not need additional vacuum pumps.

> Imagine the numbers we get with a dry sump system with 20 inches of Hg.
...
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 11:19 PM   #40
JWL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia
Posts: 2,034
Default Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser

Actually I was mentioning the book info so Ron could look it up.

The lower unit? Pulling vacuum in the crankcase does little for lower end performance increases when the correct pan is used.

The reason what is bolted on above the block face matters is because of the additional 3,000+ RPM.

As a matter of fact the engine which showed a reasonably consistent 6 HP improvement was a pretty aggressive 304 with Roller Cam and fabricated tunnel ram intake. Hardly suitable for extended street mileage.
JWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:21 PM.