Magneto question

[Kurt in NJ]

How much voltage is needed from the magneto to start car, I was told it is 1911, that it doesn't have electric starter, I question 1911, it has black radiator shell
Would it also have a place for battery to run coils?
It has been setting for many years ,I also might have to consider this car as payment for work I did on another car, how much less desirable is a non electric starting car, what condition will it have to be in to be worth 4000, it is a touring

[J Franklin]

Just put a 12V battery in it and turn the switch to BATT.

[jimTN]

Be very careful not to induce dc voltage to your mag. If unsure, I would disconnect the mag ware from the hogshead. The t will run fine on 12v. Value depends on completeness, originality, condition{mechanical, cosmetic, tires and interior/top}. There is nothing wrong with a black T and they are very nice to have especially for a family. Brass is pretty but IMHO more expensive to keep up. A 4K + car would need to be an older restoration or very good original. In order for an original car to be dependable and tour able there are things that would have to be done to it mechanically. If its a non starter car, that would make it 18 or earlier but fairly easy to convert to a starter car.

[29spcoupe]

Very difficult to find a black Model T for $4000. If it is presentable and runs, grab it!

[redmodelt]

Pictures? Black radiator shell, min 1917 max 1927. Do any of the numbers match the paper work?

[rotorwrench]

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The flywheel magneto generates an AC output that is likely more than 12-volts. The difference is that it is AC and DC are not compatible systems so they do have to be kept separate by the ignition switch. The four trembler coils will work on DC when battery is selected on the switch then on AC when magneto is selected. You can use a 6 or a 12-volt battery since the coils will run on either but you have to have 12-volt light bulbs if you run the lights with 12-volts. A 12-volt generator/alternator can be used if you run 12-volts. Many of the Ts have been converted so a person has to look at the electrical components carefully to see what the last owner was running on it.

A T will start by hand after all the engine systems are properly sorted out and functioning well. The fuel system needs to be clean from tank to carburetor and the choke, mixture, and throttle controls all have to be adjusted properly. The ignition timer and coils also have to be functioning properly and the spark control retarded fully to start.

Find the serial number and try to ID what you have and then get the applicable owners manual and any other relevant information you can find to properly care for it. Model Ts take regular maintenance but they are easier to maintain than most more modern vehicles. A person will not find too many cars that are more simple than a T. A lot of parts are available for them

Use battery position to start then turn to magneto after it's running well. Some start so easy that it can be left on magneto position. The value of a T follows it's condition. Completeness is important for all the hard parts. Soft parts like the upholstery, tires, and top can be replaced easier than hard parts. Many of these cars are over 100 years old and they all have a value. A running T is more valuable than a seized up T. A complete T that runs is a good one to have. These cars are a LOT of fun to operate and some condition can be overlooked if it is driveable.

[Kurt in NJ]

It hasn't run for over 40 years, there was a attempt at tow starting 10-15 years ago.
if everything else is equal what would the value difference between hand crank and electric start be?

[rotorwrench]

Probably not all that much. Some folks like to crank their cars even though they have a starter. Most Ts can be converted to take a starter if someone wants it. Some body designs are harder to get in and out of or a person can't pull the crank anymore so the starter could be installed. Some are easier than others to convert so that depends on the year model and body style. Ford offered them as an option in 1919 but started to put them in as standard equipment in 1920.

[J Franklin]

I had a T that usually would start on compression. Cranked it to choke (key off) a few revolutions and when the key was turned to BATT it started on its own.

[jimTN]

If your pedals are oval shape, all three the car is likely 18 or earlier. If the left and right pedals extend out and are not oval, the car would be fairly rare as a later model bought with no starting system.
There are lots of simple things that would keep one from starting for one that was not T experienced. If you can find someone locally that has and drives a T, I am sure th ey could give you good advice.

[Kurt in NJ]

I got to look at it , engine turns, no compression, no title, looks complete, perhaps 60s restoration, paint is bad, seats intact, top still in one piece except for back windows, lot of nuts under drivers seat, so much that I didn't want to try an look in gas tank, undersides look better than top of fenders
I figured it is 1917--- has that date on block, serial #is in that range, has magneto headlights, kerosene side lights, black radiator, no starter/generator, 3 doors and doesn't look like it has been modified or hacked
Lack of title makes me think it it's not 4000$, what range is realistic?

[stevests]

Appears to have a 1915 - 1916 coil box & steering column with the horn button on top - could be early 1917.

[J Franklin]

Lost titles can be replaced. See if the title can be remedied.

[rotorwrench]

I can't tell what the body style is but I've seen much worse. Even without a title, it is likely worth more than $4K. The model T is a lot easier to restore than most other cars out there and this alone gives it value. If you look at model T asking prices on Classic Autotrader and Hemmings, they are getting up there with model A cars. The open cars are still popular whether it's a Touring or Runabout type model. The wood body Coupes and Sedans are more expensive to restore but still have a decent value.

I don't know which state you are in but some states are easier than others to get titles. If you are taking it in as payment for services, that is an advantage for court rulings as long as the vehicle has no history of theft. It sounds like it has characteristics of a 1917 (prewar WWI car) so that would be a good judge of year of manufacture even if it has some earlier characteristics. 1916 was the last year for the brass model Ts. Ford changed out of the brass era due to it being considered outdated. Cars with no electrics could still use a battery for starting but they may have used a 6-volt lantern battery back in the day. Ford didn't supply a battery with the cars but there was a place to connect one if the customer wanted it. A lot of folks use a 12-volt motorcycle battery to start. Headlamp bulbs for the magneto system are a 24-volt design since anything less will likely burn right out. I think the T13007M bulb is still a common one.

No compression could be stuck valves or rings. It may take some time to bring it back from the dead so it would pay to check the engine over well and use Marvel Mystery oil to loosen stuck rings and valves.

[redmodelt]

Originally Posted by jimTN

If your pedals are oval shape, all three the car is likely 18 or earlier. If the left and right pedals extend out and are not oval, the car would be fairly rare as a later model bought with no starting system.
There are lots of simple things that would keep one from starting for one that was not T experienced. If you can find someone locally that has and drives a T, I am sure th ey could give you good advice.

Ford changed the pedals to the wider brake/low with the introduction of the 1926 models in the fall of 1925.

[Kurt in NJ]

It's been offered to me at a price I don't have to worry about the magneto, I expect to have to take apart the engine to make it reliable, and I do have a magnet charger, cranking it over feels like it is stirring a pot of sludge

[Utopia Texas]

To answer your question most set their coils for a “hand crank start” to work best between 2 to 2-1/2 volts so that would be the minimum a magneto would need to produce to get the engine started. Good magnetos at idle produce 5 volts and at road speed 30+ volts.

[redmodelt]

Coils are set to have between 1.2 and 1.4 amps draw.

[Utopia Texas]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Coils are set to have between 1.2 and 1.4 amps draw.

You are talking amps and I am talking volts.

[redmodelt]

"most set their coils for a “hand crank start” to work best between 2 to 2-1/2 volts"
We would be talking about the 1914 and later type coils here. Coils are tuned to the range I gave. They may fire at low volts, but still are doing so within that range. That range stays petty constant from low to high voltage. Many brands of HCCT don't even come with a volt meter, but they all come with an ampere meter. What and how pre 1914 coils are adjusted, is a different ball game. Adjusting to volts, 1914 up coils, could be changing how the coils function if they are not in the proper range re the ampere draw.