1914 Model T touring

[jesselashcraft]

What do you think fellas?

I really don't know very much about the car but I'm under the impression that it's mostly original with the exception of a rear view mirror on the front left fender (I've never seen pictures of Model T's with a mirror there before) and one of those wolf/train whistles on the exhaust pipe.

ship# 409023
engine block# 346779

[15max]

One obvious change is a later front axle. The '14 wishbone was mounted above the axle not below. All else seems correct for a 1914 from what I can see. Looks like a fun car to have.

[Royce P]

Looks like a great car. For the right price it might be a great car to own. I think $10,000 would be the upper limit if the wood in the body is all good and there is no rust out in the metal panels.

Look at the wood under the front seat cushion. There will be a date stamp of when the body was built. The engine was serialized in late September 1913 so I would expect the body date to be a week or two earlier. The date will be in the form of a month and year.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by 15max

One obvious change is a later front axle. The '14 wishbone was mounted above the axle not below...

Thanks for the input, Max.

- Do you think there were any advantages with this axle? Maybe beefier with the wishbone on the bottom? Better ride? Anything?

- If I should change the axle to the proper year, would that require any other components in addition to the axle? For example, would the same wishbone work above the axle?

- Might this be the reason the speedometer was disconnected? The wheel hub with the spacer lip and the cog gear for the instrument came with my car and it looks to me like they would work just fine with this axle, yes?

- Can you identify the current axle from my pictures?

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

Look at the wood under the front seat cushion. There will be a date stamp of when the body was built...

Thanks for the feedback, Royce.

I can't find the stamp. It looks like the lid for the gas tank has been replaced at some point and not a very good job either. It appears to be vegetable crate material from the farmer's market.

The tank itself may be riding a little high in the compartment as a hole was cut out (apparently with a chopping tool) to accommodate the gas cap. Or is that the way it's suppose to be? I ask because the lid is on hinges. Why would the lid be on hinges unless you had to open it to get to the gas cap?

Can you (or anyone) post a photo sometime of what that's supposed to look like?

[Steve Jelf]

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A little about the under-axle wishbone (1919 & later): The reason Ford changed to the later setup was the possibility of the axle folding under if the car hit a solid object with the older arrangement. This is why you see it changed on many pre-1919 cars (like my 1915). A common period accessory is the under-axle add-on which gives support above and below the axle. I've even seen home-made versions. If you want to go strictly stock and correct for the year, you need over-the-axle wishbone and perches. That's fine if the car is only driven on and off a trailer, and in parades. If it's driven much, I prefer the "modern" version. That said, many Model T's always had the original arrangement and never had a problem.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Steve Jelf

A little about the under-axle wishbone (1919 & later)...

Thanks for the insight, Steve. This is exactly the kind of "corporate memory" I'm looking for.

Keep it coming, gentlemen. I thrive on hearing every opinion, story, fact and/or factoid to facilitate getting my pea-brain wrapped around an issue.

If you want to, just linking a previous post would be swell.

A common period accessory is the under-axle add-on which gives support above and below the axle. I've even seen home-made versions.

I've seen a picture of it in the book "From Here To Obscurity" that was home-made. So it was an after market accessory as well? Where could I get something like that? Sounds rare.

.

[Royce P]

Jesse,

The date, followed by a body maker's assembly number, is stamped into the wood seat frame where the yellow arrow points. It is not on the door.


Here's the number on my '14. IT has the date code 3 14 (March 1914) followed by the body maker's reference number:

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

Here's the number on my '14. IT has the date code 3 14 (March 1914) followed by the body maker's reference number...

Thanks for the heads up, Royce but I can't see it.

I looked all over the lid and around the wood frame but didn't find it. In my reference book "From Here To Obscurity," it says of the 1915 model that "The body number apparently was located in no standard spot" and said some were located in the right hand door sill but I don't see it there either.

I'll keep looking.

[Royce P]

Yours is a '14. The number was only in the one spot indicated by the yellow arrow in my previous post. If the wood has not been replaced it is going to be there.

Originally Posted by jesselashcraft

Thanks for the heads up, Royce but I can't see it.

I looked all over the lid and around the wood frame but didn't find it. In my reference book "From Here To Obscurity," it says of the 1915 model that "The body number apparently was located in no standard spot" and said some were located in the right hand door sill but I don't see it there either.

I'll keep looking.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

If the wood has not been replaced it is going to be there.

There must have been some remodeling done along the way.

There are 1/2" spaces between the boards on the gas tank lid giving it the appearance of a potato crate. Is that the way it's supposed to look?

[Royce P]

It appears the door over the gas tank was remade at some point. Your gas cap is not a Ford type either.

Originally Posted by jesselashcraft

There must have been some remodeling done along the way.

There are 1/2" spaces between the boards on the gas tank lid giving it the appearance of a potato crate. Is that the way it's supposed to look?

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

Your gas cap is not a Ford type either.

Hi Royce -

Can you identify that gas cap?

[stevests]

One of several aftermarket accessory caps - I have one like it.

[yachtsmanbill]

IMHO... it looks like a later 4 dip pan, and also SCRUTINIZE the lower water jacket corner on the inlet side. Looks kinda crusty and may be rusted through... ws

[jesselashcraft]

Thanks for the input fellas -

Hi Bill - When you talk to me, assume I don't know anything about anything.

So you're saying the oil pan may not be the one that came with this engine? What's the significance of a 4 dip pan? Did it address a lubricating problem of the earlier models?

Originally Posted by yachtsmanbill

...SCRUTINIZE the lower water jacket corner on the inlet side. Looks kinda crusty and may be rusted through...

Could you be more specific? If you're talking about the white substance on the lower right hand corner of the radiator, there's some cotton-like fiber under the bottom fin there. I don't know why. That doesn't seem like a plausible temporary leak fix, does it?

[stevests]

Appears to be the correct long, narrow nose pan.

[yachtsmanbill]

Sorry about the obfuscation. Look at the inspection cover on the oil pan. The early long snout pans had a 3 rod dip pattern with the 4th rod dip on the main oilpan itself. Made adjusting #4 rod and rear main a daunting task. The later style inspection cover had all 4 dips which helped make rod adjusting a simpler task. At 100 years old, whos to say some one didn't take a later pan and change the snout and oil dam. If the angle of the picture was a bit lower, it would be obvious.
The second comment was regarding the water passage erosion/corrosion. On the drivers side of the block where the lower radiator hose attaches to the water jacket, it appears that the paint is showing corrosion bleeding from underneath, POSSIBLY indicating a crack that is leaking. The 1926 & 27 blocks were being cast a bit thinner up there and they tended to rust through faster. Again, with 100 years of well water cooling the engine, anything is possible, up to and including a freezing crack. If in doubt, clean with a wire toothbrush and check with a flashlight and mirror, or just fill it with water. ws

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by yachtsmanbill

Look at the inspection cover on the oil pan. The early long snout pans had a 3 rod dip pattern with the 4th rod dip on the main oil pan itself.

Hi Bill - I took a trip under my car today and brought the camera with me. Yeah, that's what I got. Here's a better picture.

On the drivers side of the block where the lower radiator hose attaches to the water jacket, it appears that the paint is showing corrosion bleeding from underneath, POSSIBLY indicating a crack that is leaking.

Good catch. Under the lip just south of the block date stamp is a crack about 3" long. Can you make it out at the end of the putty knife? It's not noticeable looking down into the engine compartment through the open hood. You have to get under the car. I only drove the car once 40 years ago when I bought it and the previous owner started it for me a couple times but apparently, we didn't operate it long enough to get it hot enough to cause a geyser. It's been stored ever since with no coolant in it. I was just starting out in the Navy at the time of the purchase and the intent has always been a retirement project for me.

Let the buyer beware, eh? I've been pimped from another dimension!

I've talked on the phone to a shop in northern Cincinnati:

http://ronsmachineshop.net/Catalog_f...2012%20PDF.pdf

They've been repairing cracked blocks for 40 years and without seeing the wound, based on where it's located, they're upbeat about fixing it for $65 an inch with a process they call "drilling & stitching" that doesn't involve welding or soldering. Apparently, they've been mostly successful with it. Familiar with the process?

[yachtsmanbill]

I took the liberty of rolling the pic. So Im glad to see you have the correct pan; a slight camera angle can make the world of difference. I hafta start out by telling you that I was raised on Model T's and still have difficulty on another forum with people that have all the answers, yet the questions aren't yet all in... Hmmm . Over here, its more T friendly and not so cliquish.

Drilling and stitching is a well accepted form of repair; but what remains to be seen is what caused it. Overheating? Freezing? How thin is the iron? and most of all, is that the original motor for the car. If the material is still there the stitch will work, but if its really thin there wont be much to work with. Most of the repair depends on YOU.
Semper Paradus pal! Pull the motor and repair it or a little dremel work and some JB weld?? Theres little strain and no pressure on the system and JB seems to work well. Me?? I used 2 raw eggs in my radiator and it held water for 3 years. The new owner replaced it just recently.
Personally, unless youre prepared for a full blown restoration, I'd patch it. Get the car roadworthy again, and drive it for a while to see if you even like the Ts. Once you pull the motor for some work it turns into "shoulda fixed this and shoulda fixed that" and before you know, all the fun is over.
I think you've got a fairly complete barn find that needs wheels looked at, new tires maybe, and look inside the differential for the dreaded babbit thrust washers. In the last decade, they've begun to fail which means NO BRAKES.
Listen to Steve Jelf and Royce as they are more familiar with the older cars. I am well versed on the "improved" models of 1926 and 27... still Ts but almost Model A's! Get her going and have some fun and mind what these guys tell you! T's are like an antique Briggs and Stratton lawn mower versus a new Yardman. Same thing but way different... Im off to recurve the distributor on my antique Buick... 1972 455/ 500 hp GSX... bill


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8fZ1JHLZAU

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by yachtsmanbill

...but what remains to be seen is what caused it. Overheating? Freezing? How thin is the iron? and most of all, is that the original motor for the car...

The engine number is 346779. If I'm reading my reference book correctly, that would have been around August 1913. The date stamp on the block just above the putty knife blade is: 3 11 13

So if it's not the original motor, I think it's safe to say we're still in the ballpark which is good because the earlier engines had the thicker metal, right?

Once you pull the motor for some work it turns into "shoulda fixed this and shoulda fixed that"...

I hear ya. I'm not going to drop the motor and transmission without an overhaul. I really know nothing about this car and I wouldn't want to drive it any further away from home than I would mind to push it back.

I've heard the gouge on the thrust washers, Kevlar bands and Rocky Mountain brakes. It's these kind of improvements that would make me feel more comfortable about the car's roadworthiness. So this project might take a while. I try to think of it as a journey.

Thanks for the raw egg tip. I think I'll just leave that white cotton fiber stuffed into the radiator fins where it is. Got two of my four new tires mounted and they're both holding air! (My first experience brandishing a tire iron). Those flaps are an excellent investment for a novice like me.

[jesselashcraft]

Howdy -

When I spin the front wheel, there is a slight wobble to it. In other words, there is a 1/2 inch side-to-side difference per revolution. Is that telling me there's a roller bearing issue? As far as I can tell, nothing looks bent and the outside bearing looked OK but I haven't looked at the inside bearing yet.

Also, my owner's manual says the front wheels were slightly "dished." The spokes flared out a bit - concave looking at it from the outside - making the bottom spoke perpendicular to the street since the wheels were cambered outward at the top about 3" more distant from each other than at the bottom. Apparently, this had something to do with taking side stresses better in a turn with less rigid resistance. The back wheels had a flat configuration however.

My question is: how was that accomplished? In a couple of the catalogs, there doesn't seem to be a differentiation between front and back spokes so were all spokes made the same and their angle on the front wheel achieved by the shape of the hub or was there a time when the front spokes were shaved with the appropriate angle making them different from the back spokes?

Since the cars aren't being driven that much anymore (and when they are it's all on improved paved roads), is it possible that people have just transitioned to straight spokes all around over the years?

[jesselashcraft]

My reference book says that car numbers from 332501 to 539000 were produced from 1 Oct 13 to 31 Jul 14. If you take the difference of the two, you get 206449. Divide by 10 months to get 20,650 cars manufactured roughly every month.

My car's ship number is 409023. Would it be safe to assume it came off the line sometime in mid January 1914?

[Royce P]

There are no spokes sold in the catalogs for 1914 model year. The spokes in the catalogs are the type used from 1919 - 1927 when the cars were equipped with demountable wood wheels. Those wheels are completely unlike the wheels that go on your car.

The front 30 X 3 wheels (24" rim diameter) that came on your 1914 originally are slightly "dished" in towards the center when viewed from the outside. The rear wheels on your 1914 are 30 X 3 1/2" tire size. The rear rim diameter is 23". The rear wheels are not dished.

The wheels on your car have to be made or repaired by wheelwrights. Several good ones provide this service. The shape of the spokes determines the "dish" on the front wheels. It is very complex yet archaic technology that is now yours to preserve for future generations.

Originally Posted by jesselashcraft

Howdy -

When I spin the front wheel, there is a slight wobble to it. In other words, there is a 1/2 inch side-to-side difference per revolution. Is that telling me there's a roller bearing issue? As far as I can tell, nothing looks bent and the outside bearing looked OK but I haven't looked at the inside bearing yet.

Also, my owner's manual says the front wheels were slightly "dished." The spokes flared out a bit - concave looking at it from the outside - making the bottom spoke perpendicular to the street since the wheels were cambered outward at the top about 3" more distant from each other than at the bottom. Apparently, this had something to do with taking side stresses better in a turn with less rigid resistance. The back wheels had a flat configuration however.

My question is: how was that accomplished? In a couple of the catalogs, there doesn't seem to be a differentiation between front and back spokes so were all spokes made the same and their angle on the front wheel achieved by the shape of the hub or was there a time when the front spokes were shaved with the appropriate angle making them different from the back spokes?

Since the cars aren't being driven that much anymore (and when they are it's all on improved paved roads), is it possible that people have just transitioned to straight spokes all around over the years?

[Royce P]

The reference books are referring to the motor number. This is not the number on the firewall patent plate. Your engine block has a casting date. The car would typically be shipped within a week after the engine block was cast.

Originally Posted by jesselashcraft

My reference book says that car numbers from 332501 to 539000 were produced from 1 Oct 13 to 31 Jul 14. If you take the difference of the two, you get 206449. Divide by 10 months to get 20,650 cars manufactured roughly every month.

My car's ship number is 409023. Would it be safe to assume it came off the line sometime in mid January 1914?

[jesselashcraft]

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Originally Posted by Royce P

The shape of the spokes determines the "dish" on the front wheels.

Hi Royce -

Since I made that post, I put a square on an extra hub that came with the car and concluded it must be the shape of the spoke that created the concave "dish." Appreciate the confirmation.

I've been in touch with the Noah Stutzman. As it turns out, their establishment is about an hour from where I grew up and will be spending Thanksgiving so I'm planning a side trip. My understanding is they're pretty good at it.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

Your engine block has a casting date. The car would typically be shipped within a week after the engine block was cast.

In the back of "From Here To Obscurity," they list the car number and the engine number with inclusive dates. They caution that some minor discrepancies exist between all the lists out there but I'm starting to think the engine for this car was replaced with a 1913 motor at some point. The engine number cold stamped into the block just above the water inlet is: 346779 (according to my book, probably put together in the summer of 1913). The raised casting date just to the right of the inlet is 3 11 13.

Incidentally, there is a number on the right backside of the radiator in the
"Ford Motor Co. Detroit Mich." stamp: No. 0722640
Not sure if that's helpful.

[Royce P]

Sounds like the block has been re - stamped too. Your car has the look of a 1950's or 1960's restoration that was not stored well. I would pick a different block if I were going to restore that car, one with a 1914 model year casting date. The 1913 block will sell for enough money to pay for the upgrade to a block that matches the body.

[Royce P]

Tell Noah hello for me. His family does fabulous work. I have more wheels to send to him right now for my '15.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

Sounds like the block has been re - stamped too.

Hi Royce -

I made a mistake on the block casting date. Checking with a flashlight this time and getting right up next to it, it's not 3 11 13 as I mentioned before, it's: 8 11 13.

Does that make more sense?

I'll pass your regards to Noah. I'm looking forward to seeing their operation.

[J Franklin]

People forget that Ford used up old supplies in later cars and your block could have been taken off line for re-machining and put in a later body.

[Royce P]

OK that block is a good match for that body. The dash tag is now the part that does not work exactly right. You can get a replacement dash tag. RV Anderson can stamp it with a number that is more appropriate.

Originally Posted by jesselashcraft

Hi Royce -

I made a mistake on the block casting date. Checking with a flashlight this time and getting right up next to it, it's not 3 11 13 as I mentioned before, it's: 8 11 13.

Does that make more sense?

I'll pass your regards to Noah. I'm looking forward to seeing their operation.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

The dash tag is now the part that does not work exactly right. You can get a replacement dash tag.

You lost me. Are you talking about the brass plate on the dashboard?

[Royce P]

Right.

Something on your car was changed over the years. The dash mounted "Patent Plate" number is way higher than your engine VIN. The easy fix would be to replace the dash tag with a number that is more believable. Here's a comparison of original VS reproduction:

Originally Posted by jesselashcraft

You lost me. Are you talking about the brass plate on the dashboard?

[jesselashcraft]

Hey fellas -

Going through the process of pulling the engine and transmission for a total makeover and I see I have this switch below the coil box. One wire went to ground (the same post goes to a screw on the hogshead cover plate) and the other wire is broken off. The switch itself is a simple pull/push type.

Anyone have any guesses of what this might have been used for? After market accessory? I doubt if it's electric running lights. I don't see where those lights would have been mounted. That would have left a mark.

Give me your best guesses.

[Steve Jelf]

Whatever that switch is for, it didn't come from the factory that way. I don't believe Ford ever mounted a switch in the dash shield, and there were no electric lights on Fords before the 1915 model year.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by yachtsmanbill

...POSSIBLY indicating a crack that is leaking.

Hey fellas -

My biggest concern, the block, is repairable. Having the "drill & stitch" method done this holiday season.

Got the radiator back from the shop. Had a new core installed. More tubes, oval tubes and a louver arrangement on the fins for more surface area. I hear the brass cars were notorious for overheating. I plan on installing engine pans on this car in another attempt at sufficient cooling.

The radiator looked a little rough when I got it back but it cleaned up well.

Fenders, splash aprons and running board are in the paint shop. There's a little rust that will have to be addressed. The wheels are cleaning up nicely.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

The date, followed by a body maker's assembly number, is stamped into the wood seat frame where the yellow arrow points.

Finally found it. It was almost worn off and in a rough cut part of the board.
So I think this is all the numbers:

Body date/number: 1 14 70535
Transmission stub shaft date: 2 7 14
Ship number: 409023
Engine/serial number: 346779 (9/25/13)
Engine casting date: 8 11 13
Head casting date: 2 6

Are there any other numbers of interest?

Originally Posted by Royce P

The dash tag is now the part that does not work exactly right.

Tell me more about the "FORD CAR NO" on the brass plate fellas. Larry Smith was saying the engine number is normally a higher number than the ship number which leads me to believe that the motor may have been swapped out for an earlier made engine at some point. J Franklin has an interesting theory that the engine could have been taken off line for re-machining and put in a later car.

I got to tell you, I'm pretty relieved I don't have to go looking for another block.

[centaurdave]

Ron Miller in Shandon, OH. has a couple of 1614 Ford Tourings. He is a great source of information. He is on the west side of Cinnci. Give him a call. His shop phone is, 513-738-7353. Dave

[centaurdave]

Typeing is not my strong suite. Should have been 1914 Ford. Dave

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by centaurdave

Give him a call.

Hi Dave -

That's the shop repairing my block using the "drill and stitch" method. They claim it's an excellent and durable strategy for repairing cracked water vessels.

[centaurdave]

Good method and they do good work. Get Ron and B.J. to show you there toys. Dave

[jesselashcraft]

Before I send the carcass to the paint shop, I pulled the gas tank and polished the sediment bulb.

It was painted black for some reason.

[jesselashcraft]

I have reason to believe that this may be a picture of the guy who sold the car to the previous owner from whom I purchased it. If that's correct, his name is J. Allan Saunders from the Darien, CT area.

Anyone familiar with the name? Recognize him from a tour or Hershey? He would have owned the car 45 or 50 years ago.

[jesselashcraft]

Went to Ron's to visit my motor yesterday. Should be picking it up in the next week or so.

We painted it Ohio State colors (scarlet and grey) so my sister's children will still talk to me.

[Royce P]

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BJ and the crew at Ron's do wonderful work. You picked a great machine shop. The lock stitch repairs are the best, good method to fix that type of damage.

[jesselashcraft]

Picked up the engine/transmission last week.

[jesselashcraft]

While I'm waiting for the carcass to return from the paint shop, the train whistle that I removed from the car had a broken butterfly valve I didn't think I could fix and looking at the advertisement for Aermore from 1924 I found on Ebay, the "t" that splices into the exhaust pipe is missing a piece anyway so I decided to just mount the thing on a stick. The car has two horns on it already. I thought if this turns out nice, I'll display it in the house. If not, I'll leave it to collect dust in the shop (as opposed to collecting dust in the house).

I've been working on it for months mostly learning how to cut a presentable freehand dovetail joint. Two of the caps of the brass tubes were missing so I bought a couple 1914 quarters on Ebay (the year of the car) to plug the holes and decoupaged the Fulton advertisement to the back. The base is beautiful African padauk hardwood that's somewhere between an orange and red hue. The upright is ash with a piece of yellow pine to beef up the mounting point and provide a color contrast to accent the padauk. I used copper to represent the exhaust pipe.