1932 serial number starts with D5

[evobuilder]

I just bought a very hot rodded 32 Roadster with a serial that starts with "D5". The frame does not look like a standard 32 (see my other thread where I realized I have something different).

So.... now I am being told the "D" frames are super rare (too late, this one has been boxed and modded), but I am trying to understand the D frames over the 18- frames.

I did search, I did hunt, and I found a ton of information, but noting related to the "D" serial number.

This is my first 32, so I have a lot to learn, but the "D" is throwing me.

[Charlie Stephens]

I have had my '32 since 1969 and am a trivia nut. I have never heard of a D frame. Any chance you could post a picture of the serial number? Where is it located?

Charlie Stephens

[Bored&Stroked]

I think the 'D' is for "Dons's Hot Rods" . . . just kidding . . . I have no clue.

But I have seen many creative serial numbers on custom builds - somehow they have managed to get past the local DMVs.

[DavidG]

The surviving engine production figures in the Benson Ford Research Center for the '32 model year are among the most detailed for any pre-WWII model year. The entries in the Rouge engine log are in many instances daily. There are AB, ABF, B, and BF prefix entries for the fours and 18 and 18F prefix entries for the eights. All of which were the prefixes of '32 model U.S. VINs and those of U.S. exports. (An additional B was added to the fours' prefixes when the engine was destined for a big truck and BB was added to V8s' prefixes for that purpose.)

The first batch of Canadian fours' full prefix was either CBG and CBGF; the second and last batch prefixes were CBQ and CBQF. The letter D does show up in the prefixes of the first batch of Canadian V8s, but not at the beginning. Rather those prefixes were C18D and C18DF (the second and last batch were prefixed C18R and C18RF).

Could a Canadian frame have the first two letters missing from the prefix? It's a possibility, although a real long shot. Even if that were the case, the frame would be a mid-year run-of-the-mill version and have nothing unique about it other than missing a letter and two numbers in the engine number (VIN) prefix, given the delay in Job #1 on the south side of the Detroit River compared to Job #1 on the north side of the river in Dearborn.

You should satisfy yourself and visit the Benson Ford Research Center. What they have in Ford's archives regarding '32 engine production and serialization is not available on line.

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by DavidG

You should satisfy yourself and visit the Benson Ford Research Center.

The absolutely most fascinating library I have ever visited.

[evobuilder]

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a hot rod shop up the street by me also has a title with a D serial for a 32 Ford. So it's not just me.

[DavidG]

Unless you can share some photos as to why your frame and that of your neighbor are somehow unique, my guess is that somewhere along the way the VINs were re-issued by the State of California or some other jurisdiction when an engine was replaced, not a rare occurrence. The VIN prefixes per se do not prove the frame(s) are unique. Also, "very hot rodded" cars tend not to be a reliable source for original vehicle configurations. For example, the car in your avatar appears to be missing the back 10 % of its original frame.


Another alternative is that 87 years of aging has obliterated enough of what was originally a B to appear to be a D. The full four cylinder numbers were AB or B followed by a seven digit number commencing in 5.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by evobuilder

a hot rod shop up the street by me also has a title with a D serial for a 32 Ford. So it's not just me.

How about a little more of the number, replacing the last three digits with "XXX" if you are concerned? Asking again, where are you finding this number and how about a picture, again blanking out the last three digits if you are concerned?

Charlie Stephens

[rotorwrench]

With two similar frames in close proximity of each other that are out of the norms gives a feeling that there may be a local interrelation of these units. There have been a lot of frames fabricated from American Stamping Corporation rails as well as others. The possibility of private fabrication outside of Ford Motor Co & affiliates is there plus the possibility of state issued identification numbers is also there.

The popularity of the 1932 Fords is such that there are a lot of known clones out there since the originals are all finite in number and harder to source for sale these days. The popularity reflects the asking prices of these cars when they are for sale so they can be an expensive investment. Laws have been relaxed somewhat to allow for cloning as long as the rules are followed for each state affected.

[Mart]

If it is an original frame, stamped by Henry's men, the numbers will be of a distinctive type face. (font).

A pic of the frame and the numbers would help. Just cover over the last few digits if you like.

[evobuilder]

funny thing is.... the two frames are in close proximity now, but mine came from Indiana, the other is in So Cal.
Capture.jpg

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by evobuilder

funny thing is.... the two frames are in close proximity now, but mine came from Indiana, the other is in So Cal.
Attachment 404452

Is the number stamped into the actual frame and can you post a photo and give the location where it is stamped or is it just on the paperwork? How about a photo of the whole vehicle? It is beginning to look like you have a number assigned by a state DMV. That old California pink slip takes me back in time. When you register it (I assume you haven't yet), assuming that is the pink you plan to use, some DMV people will try to charge for back registration, there is a way around it but it don't know the details. Keep looking for a DMV clerk that knows how to waive the back fees (or call Sacramento for help).

Charlie Stephens

[Bob C]

Any chance that number could be from a factory rebuilt engine? There are
Model A engines starting with RF=Richmond Ford or LB= Long Beach.


Bob

[deuce lover]

Whats with the body type" LGHTDL" ?

[Carl]

I'm not familiar with California titles but the model "LGHTDL" could signify light delivery. The DR in the VIN # could mean its an assigned # from the Department of Registrations in the state of California.

[37 Cab]

I have had a couple vehicles and trailers with Calif. assigned VINs and they all started with CA.

[34pickup]

There are possibly more reproduction frame rails out there today than there are originals.

[rotorwrench]

That's a 1958 registration so no telling what that number comes from. It's listed at 4-cylinder which would have been a B or AB motor. B motors were used as industrial engines just like the A engines were but I have no idea what the numbers were assigned to industrial and agricultural applications by Ford Motor Co.

DavidG knows more about these models than most any one else on the board and he literally wrote the 1932 book available from the EFV8 club. It's definitely not a normal frame number as he describes. If there was some special number set up by Ford, I think he would know about it after all the research at Benson Ford and years of 1932 experience.

[deuce_roadster]

The class being "AE" might be assembled early or something like that which would be a clue.

[DavidG]

Mike,

With respect, I seriously doubt AE stands for assembled early. How would the State of California know that, even if it were true? In fact, no four-cylinder passenger cars were produced until more than a month after the vehicle Job #1 of the 1932 model year on March 10th, despite more than 40,000 four-cylinder engine-transmission assemblies having already been manufactured. It was all about the new V8 and everything was put on hold until production versions of it became available commencing on March 7th.

[Karl Wescott]

First, serial numbers and VIN numbers are not the same thing, though a serial number is most often the VIN. Each state can issue its own VIN.


Now for speculation... "DR" for a "Dealer Replacement" of the transmission?

[DavidG]

Karl,



With respect, in the year in question in Ford's case, all three phrases are equal, engine/transmission number, serial number, and VIN (although the acronym likely did not exist at the time).

[evobuilder]

Well, if DavidG doesn't know about be ellusive (aka rumored) D 32 Frame, VIN, etc. I am going to consider it just that a rumor. The car will be here mid of next week, so I will have pics of the VIN, frame, etc. Doesn't really matter to me, I bought a really fun 32 Roadster hot rod, just love doing research when I buy a car, especially because I have never owned a 32, so lots to learn. I've owned a 27 T, 29 A, 30 A, 31 A, a couple gassers, muscle cars and a ton of motorcycles, but never a 32. Very excited!

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by evobuilder

Well, if DavidG doesn't know about be ellusive (aka rumored) D 32 Frame, VIN, etc. I am going to consider it just that a rumor. The car will be here mid of next week, so I will have pics of the VIN, frame, etc. Doesn't really matter to me, I bought a really fun 32 Roadster hot rod, just love doing research when I buy a car, especially because I have never owned a 32, so lots to learn. 27 T, 29 A, 30 A, 31 A, a couple gassers, and muscle cars, but never a 32.

Be sure you can find a legitimate number on the frame or door jam that matches the title document or you will have a problem with the DMV. I hope you have seen the serial number with your own eyes, had someone check it, or at least a picture of it.

Charlie Stephens

[evobuilder]

full VIN check, car check, etc. done by Hagerty in person. Title matches the VINs, all is good. I am a very careful buyer.

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Be sure you can find a legitimate number on the frame or door jam that matches the title document or you will have a problem with the DMV. I hope you have seen the serial number with your own eyes, had someone check it, or at least a picture of it.

Charlie Stephens

[deuce_roadster]

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David, was thinking in the DMV database that may have been a possibility, not that they would have known it was an early production car, but an older assembled vehicle not a current year one. Have no idea what their Class field use is and what the letters meant, only a guess that the A could have been for assembled.

[cas3]

perhaps drifting off a bit, but i have titled many wrecks here in minnesota. all states vary, but for the most part the state has the same data that we see on vanpelts wonderful site, and if you do not have real ford numbers that fit in that form, they first want to inspect it, and if they agree to a title it will have a new state issue vin number, known here as the " blue vin tag" which is an aluminum plate with blue numbers that you are supposed to rivet to the frame. it seems odd to me that hagerty would not know the ford system. best wishes

[rotorwrench]

The auction house likely does know but the intent is to make sure that whatever number is on the car does match the title if that was the way it was registered to the previous owner whether it is an original OEM number or not. They just need to insure that the new owner can legally transfer the title to cover their end.

[evobuilder]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The auction house likely does know but the intent is to make sure that whatever number is on the car does match the title if that was the way it was registered to the previous owner whether it is an original OEM number or not. They just need to insure that the new owner can legally transfer the title to cover their end.

Not an auction house, Hagerty is an insurance company who also offers vehicle verification services to non local buyers, but yes, I agree, they just need to insure that the new owner can legally transfer the title to cover their end.

My question has really strayed away from this rumored "B" frame VIN/Serial number, but it sounds like it is just that, a rumor or story that has built up over the years.

[ct1932ford]

My guess the state of CA. assigned that number.

[blucar]

Originally Posted by Karl Wescott

First, serial numbers and VIN numbers are not the same thing, though a serial number is most often the VIN. Each state can issue its own VIN.


Now for speculation... "DR" for a "Dealer Replacement" of the transmission?

I have to disagree with the above statement.. The original serial/vin number of a vehicle is assigned by the manufacture, and generally contains pertinent information about the factory of origin, power train and the sequential production number.

Of course the majority of us Early Ford V8 people know that the serial number on a '32-48 Ford/Merc means very little because Ford assigned the serial number to the engine/trans combo when they were built.
As to what "AE" on an old California title stands for is pure speculation. I do know that the Idaho title dated 1952 that I had for my '36 Ford when I moved to California in 1954 described my car as being a delux cpe, CA changed that to "AE"... I questioned the DMV about that and was told that, that was how they did it.

[tubman]

If it adds any insight, when I got a Minnesota "Home-Built" title for my first "T" bucket in 1966, the VIN the state assigned "MINN 66-nnnn". There was a "re-constructed" C2 Corvette on eBay a few years ago. It was from Nebraska and had a state assigned VIN starting with "NEBR". Coincidence? or maybe a pattern?

[BoxCar Tom]

I don't get it, why worry about the composition of the serial number? It's anything but an original car and it's certainly as far away from a numbers matching car as you can get, so why bother? It's a hot rod, an alphabet soup of parts with an alphabet VIN. For all its worth we may as well be pondering its original paint scheme? "Just saying" Just my two cents with a big smile on my face, not being harsh or hard nosed.

[JSeery]

The question was about the type/origins of the frame. He was asking about stores of a rare "D" series frame.

[evobuilder]

correct.... my interest is really around the storied "D" frame for specs. Not for value, rarity, etc, just to understand where the origin of this so called "rare frame" is and if it's even real, myth or nothing.

Originally Posted by JSeery

The question was about the type/origins of the frame. He was asking about stores of a rare "D" series frame.

[Roger W Gerow]

The serial/VIN number is a unique number assigned by the vehicle manufacturer when the vehicle is assembled. Therefore the two terms are synonymous.

[john stimac]

Description on the title states light delivery. Could this be one of the rare sedan delivery's, and possibly LeBaron Body stamped them?

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Roger W Gerow

The serial/VIN number is a unique number assigned by the vehicle manufacturer when the vehicle is assembled. Therefore the two terms are synonymous.

But, since VIN stands for 'Vehicle Identification Number', do not say "VIN number", it's just VIN. Seems rather redundant to say "Vehicle Identification Number number", right?

[evobuilder]

Originally Posted by john stimac

Description on the title states light delivery. Could this be one of the rare sedan delivery's, and possibly LeBaron Body stamped them?

This is starting to make sense.... both titles have the LGHTDL designation.

[DavidG]

It only makes sense if that's the body type of the vehicle that you are buying (which you've not mentioned in this thread).

[JSeery]

Dave, I think he is referring to the registration in 58 using what is assumed to be the frame number. It is listed as LGHTDL (whatever that means) and a 4 cyl. I do not know 32 models that well, but did a roadster every come with a 4 cylinder? I also do not know other states laws, but around here they go by the frame serial number and the body sitting on the frame doesn't much matter (as long as it looks somewhat original). You really can't tell much about which body was on which frame with the original serial numbers anyway within an engine group.

Did any of the custom builders at the time use any frames other than the assembly line frames?

By the way, I find topics like this interesting because it is an area I know virtually nothing about!

[evobuilder]

Originally Posted by DavidG

It only makes sense if that's the body type of the vehicle that you are buying (which you've not mentioned in this thread).

Ahhhh.... I thought it would be a frame difference, not just a body difference.

[DavidG]

All '32 body types were offered with either a four or V8, except that V8s were not released for use in commercial vehicles and big trucks at the beginning of the model year. The first commercial vehicle to offer the choice of engines was the station wagon in May, 1932, but the other commercials and trucks did not offer the V8 engine option until late in the model year. (It is highly likely that more V8-powered '32 pickups exist today than were originally built that way by Ford.)


The drive-away chassis offered by Ford used the same frame as that of the whole vehicles. Bare frames could be purchased through service in painted form and I've seen several of them in NOS form. Naturally they had no engine or any other numbers stamped on top of the frame rails.

[evobuilder]

Originally Posted by DavidG

All '32 body types were offered with either a four or V8, except that V8s were not released for use in commercial vehicles and big trucks at the beginning of the model year. The first commercial vehicle to offer the choice of engines was the station wagon in May, 1932, but the other commercials and trucks did not offer the V8 engine option until late in the model year. (It is highly likely that more V8-powered '32 pickups exist today than were originally built that way by Ford.)


The drive-away chassis offered by Ford used the same frame as that of the whole vehicles. Bare frames could be purchased through service in painted form and I've seen several of them in NOS form. Naturally they had no engine or any other numbers stamped on top of the frame rails.

Thanks DavidG.... my car will be here today (hopefully) and I will be able to post pics of the frame. The seller states that it is a rare 32 frame (the other guy I know with the same VIN starting ID has the same story for his frame).

My hunch is that the frame under the car I bought is a Model A frame and not a 32 frame, but since I have not seen the frame in person, I don't know what I don't know (except stories from two different people who have never met with the same story, as well as others).

We'll see soon enough, my car is supposed to be dropped off soon. I doesn't matter to me either way, I bought a great hot rod for a great price, but I always like to know what I don't know.

[jmerson]

Not exactly on subject but can you guys help with a Vin number check? Just brought home a '32 full fendered '32 roadster purchased from the widow of a friend of mine. This guy had a restoration business in Reno,NV and had owned the car since 1952 and it was his own driver. The vin was 18500xx. Is that the correct amount of digits for a 32? Also have you ever heard of a '32 with '31 doors and rear body? I know the '38 Deluxe and the '39 Standard are about the same and the '39 Deluxd and the '40 Standard are about the same and I'm wondering if Henry used the body of the '31 until he ran out of them before using the '32? The '31 A400's doors fit inside like a '32 when all of the other '31's overlap.


Any help would be appreciated,


Jim

[Charlie Stephens]

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Originally Posted by jmerson

Not exactly on subject but can you guys help with a Vin number check? Just brought home a '32 full fendered '32 roadster purchased from the widow of a friend of mine. This guy had a restoration business in Reno,NV and had owned the car since 1952 and it was his own driver. The vin was 18500xx. Is that the correct amount of digits for a 32? Also have you ever heard of a '32 with '31 doors and rear body? I know the '38 Deluxe and the '39 Standard are about the same and the '39 Deluxd and the '40 Standard are about the same and I'm wondering if Henry used the body of the '31 until he ran out of them before using the '32? The '31 A400's doors fit inside like a '32 when all of the other '31's overlap.


Any help would be appreciated,


Jim

There should be a star before and after the serial number. The "18" indicates it started life with a V8 and the rest of the number is the sequential production number. I assume you are reading this from the top of the left frame rail near the steering box? If not, the story might change. A photo would be nice. I have never heard of Model A parts being used on a '32 from the factory, probably something your friend did.

Charlie Stephens

[Tinker]

I8, CA or BBI8. Factory.


things get messed up in 80-100yrs. Don't mean it's illegal or nefarious. Just not original.



.

[jmerson]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

There should be a star before and after the serial number. The "18" indicates it started life with a V8 and the rest of the number is the sequential production number. I assume you are reading this from the top of the left frame rail near the steering box? If not, the story might change. A photo would be nice. I have never heard of Model A parts being used on a '32 from the factory, probably something your friend did.

Charlie Stephens

Thanks Charlie for the reply. I wrote you a nice long reply but hadn't loffed in so it was lost and i con't feel like doing it over so this will have to do. Maybe later i'll get enough energy to resend the message.


Thanks again,


Jim

[DavidG]

18-500XX is a legitimate '32 engine number, which Ford used as a VIN. Normally on the stamping on the frame would include a star preceding the 18 and following the last digit as Charlie indicates and there would normally be a dash between the 18 and the rest of the numbers.

If the VIN you are reciting is off the paperwork and not read from the chassis frame, there would be no stars and sometimes no dash included.

There were a fair number of Model A parts carried over into '32 model production, but no body sheet metal.


Tinker,

CA? I assume you meant one of the two Canadian '32 V8 engine number prefixes of C18D or C18R as CA was not a '32 engine number prefix.

[Tinker]

David I was generalizing. For Canadian builds. You are the expert on 32s, model A frames/engines did have a ca not sure 32's. To my knowledge a D5 is never mentioned... nor thought it was... to my knowledge not ever a vintage correct vin

[DavidG]

The '32 Canadian LHD fours had prefixes of CBG and CBQ plus as with all '32 RHD engine numbers, whether manufactured in East Windsor, Dearborn, or Dagenham, an F as the last letter in the prefix.

[rotorwrench]

I wonder if the guy in Reno ever worked for Bill Harrah. One of my mentors worked for Bill back in the late 50s until the late 60s. Harrah had employees that specialized in different models and trade specialties. My old friend was his Stanley Steamer specialist and welding was his main specialty. They restored a lot of cars for Bill Harrah

[jmerson]

Roto, Yes he did. In fact he was running the place when it shut down. He also worked on the Class A hydro plane. T think it was the Miss Bud. He also tuned one of the Indy cars but i'm not sure if it was a Budweiser car. He showed me his credentials that allowed him to get into the pits at Indy. I've been told he was the person that first used Nitrus Oxide on a race car. Not sure and don't have any paper work to prove or disprove it. He was a very talented guy, a little ornery at times but a good guy.
He had a shop at 806 Glendale Ave in Sparks,NV just down the street from Summit Racing's store.
Getting back to the roadster, he had aowned it since 1951 and had driven it most ot those years. If it is in fact a '31 body i can only think that he probably swapped it out when he was a kid and kept it that way after he became a guru out of respect fot his humble beginning. He would certainly have known the difference especially with the doors overlaping the body.

[jmerson]

Roto,


Google his name and a number of articles come up. There is one about the Titanic car.


Jim

[skidmarks]

Delaware at one time used ASM ahead of a number for serial numbers for assembled vehicles like street rods and kit cars