Frame issue

[PhoenixFear]

I've been wrestling with this crossmember for a few days now. I've tried grinding and drilling out the rivets, air hammer, etc. No go on the big rivets. Anyway, the front horns have always bugged me but I never took much look into it. I pulled the fenders off and it looks like the frame had been cut and welded and then bolted together. The bumper braces don't line up either. I'm debating whether to just cut the front of the frame off and weld better frame sections on. What should I do about this? Thanks.

[Torchie]

Wow.
Looks like someone tried to make their own frame horns.
If you have good ones I would cut this crap off and weld the better ones on.
Can anyone say "Cobble"
Torchie.

[PhoenixFear]

I don't have any new horns but I blew it off thinking someone just bolted these parts together. I want to just cut the frame off right behind the crossmember and put the stock crossmember I bought in with some new frame sections.

[PhoenixFear]

Would these be good enough to go behind the crossmember?
http://macsautoparts.com/early-ford-...4N9K11000019E/

[Old Col]

Hi, no reason why you shouldn't be able to drill the rivets out.....sometimes they will need a decent smack to help them along their way. I generally drill the rounded head off after running a pilot hole deep into the rivet and following up with successively larger drills until the head falls off,then run a drill marginally smaller than the rivet dia. part way into the rivet body, but not all the way through.... ( make the hole at least as deep as the rivet depth) to relieve internal tension within the rivet,then use a decent size punch and hammer and give it a few solid whacks ,that should knock them out.

If you're going to cut the frame rails,best plan is to keep the cut ahead of the crossmember or maybe even join it through where the front crossmember is riveted. It's not a great idea to weld channel section frames, especially in the areas of greatest stress....like from the crossmember back. Vertical joins and welds are supposed to be avoided when joining frame rails, and cuts are meant to be on an angle and then covered with a fishplate....which looks totally trashy ,so most guys don't do it. If you made the cut and join in the area that's covered by the little radiator mounting bracket , the bracket itself will help to bridge the weld repair area somewhat , and if you do it neatly enough.....no-one should ever notice it, regards, Colin.

[Mart]

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Good advice above.

I'd take all that added on stuff off. Get back to what's left of the original frame. Get the rivets out as described above. Once it is all stripped down, good quality repairs can be made. I would not cut behind the crossmember, cut in front but only if absolutely necessary.

Mart.

[TJ]

Contact Precision Coachworks. They may have the sections you need.

[rotorwrench]

Diamond shaped fish plates can be welded inside the frame to reinforce a vertical cut through the frame behind a front cross member. The outer part that shows can be welded and ground flush to look good then the hidden diamond reinforcement will counter the load stress. There are a lot of good ways to repair a frame with good visual appearance and still keep the necessary strength. Replacement stampings and reinforcing plates should be of the same material and gauge as the OEM frame.

You will have to insure good alignment of your parts if you remove the cross member & replace sections extending behind it. This is what locates your front axle and keeps it steering straight down the road so alignment is critical.

[David J]

I have a 33 and a 34 frame that are ruined elsewhere and the front bumpers and crossmembers are still in both . The 34 actually has it's motor-tranny still in place . That probably means the horns are there but I have no idea how good they are . If needed I can check and see how good they are . Kindof a hassle removing them so I would need something for them . Like already stated DO NOT CUT BEHIND THE CROSSMEMBER . Many reasons for this and B-sides yours look fine in that area .

[PhoenixFear]

After wrestling with this frame some more and looking around for a decent replacement frame I've decided I'll just keep this frame and fix the horns. I managed to drill out all the rivets but it looks like I'll need to spread the frame a bit to slide out the crossmember. I shouldn't have installed boxing plates in this truck but oh well, considering all the other hacking up this frame has had it really doesn't matter. I'll still need to weld on replacement horns, my frame is hacked down right where the front part of the radiator support bracket is.
I'm assuming if I just weld cage nuts onto the new crossmember that I can just bolt it in and be safe? I really don't want to weld it in and I don't want to rivet it in either.

[Mart]

The 33/34 frames have a distinctive step a few inches back from the front. You really need a decent frame as a reference. I havn't removed a 33/34 crossmember, but I have removed 32 and 40 type, and I found they have to be moved backwards rather than forwards. Were you trying to move it forwards?

The frame will spread a bit, if need be, but don't overdo it.

Lots of cars have bolted in crossmembers, make sure you use good quality bolts. Riveting is better, but for all practical purposes bolting it in will be good enough. You don't need caged nuts as such, nuts and bolts will do.

Mart.

[rotorwrench]

Rivets were used for the expansion that happens when they are driven. This expansion is far superior to bolts. You can still see a lot of old rivited steel bridges & buildings around the country that are still in heavy use today and that is a testament to the old technology of forged rivets. The tooling FoMoCo used was big stuff so us hobby resto guys have to make due with aircraft rivet hammers (preferably 5X or larger), oxy/acetylene torch, very large home made steel bucking bars, and friends who like to do the same stuff as we do. It aint easy but it is still the best way for loose & oversized holes.

Bolts will work but the hole has to be a tight fit or it will soon be oval shaped from flexing. The bolts have to be retightened fairly often or you will soon find them missing or wobling around in the holes.

Welding is better than bolting but it has its own ups & downs. The first is that it is farthest from original type construction. It won't come appart well and it can't flex much or it will crack.

[PhoenixFear]

I used a bumper jack to spread the frame rails a bit, just enough to get the crossmember to clear. Since I have boxing plates in, the crossmember won't come out toward the firewall. Also, since I'm missing a good chunk of the front frame horns the crossmember doesn't have to go far to come out.

[Old Col]

Hi ,regarding the issue of bolts vs. rivets.....without access to the right kind of heavy duty riveting equipment , it's not possible to achieve the same degree of fit as originally produced by Ford. If you're concerned about bolts being loose in the holes, line everything up,drill to the next nominal bolt size for tapping and run a thread right through and into the crossmember , then fit the appropriate bolt and when you have it as tight as possible,run a nut up from underneath and tighten it as much as you can. You won't have to worry about movement on a loose bolt shank to bored hole anymore. For a near original appearance you can use a domed head socket cap screw , slip a little serve of Bondo in the hole after you've finished and it looks just like a rivet head. I've used this method before with total success,even stripped out a '33 frame completely to remove the entire X member and inner frame extensions as there was captured rust between the inner and outer rails that needed to be blasted to remove and clean,paint,etc. That car has many miles under it's belt now and is still as good as new.

[PhoenixFear]

I got the crossmember out and placed a 2x4 in its place just to keep the frame rails aligned. However one thing that has bothered me are these homemade radiator support brackets. Are there supposed to be brackets here or does the radiator mount directly onto the crossmember (with the pad and bolt kit of course)? My radiator has brackets riveted onto it but they are flush with the bottom of the radiator. So basically without those homemade brackets the lower flanges where the hoses attach don't clear the crossmember. I'm thinking I may have the incorrect radiator in this truck.

[Jay in Mass]

I have a pair of original 33-34 front frame horns that I stored away many years ago. If you are interested, send me a PM with an email address and I'll locate them, and email some pictures of them to you.

[Mart]

I only have my 33 coupe to go on, but the brackets are wrong. The rad should have 2 pads, and sit on the mounts where the front of your brackets are mounted. If the rad don't fit, it must be the wrong rad.

Unless trucks were different, of course, which they may be, I don't know.

Mart.

[PhoenixFear]

I received another crossmember. It's rusty and pitted but I think sandblasting it may work. However I've noticed a few differences between the crossmember I got and the one that was hacked up. First, there is a "lip" on the front of the crossmember, my old one does not have that. Also, there was a very rusty piece of steel riveted in underneath where the leaf spring would bolt into. It was cracked in half, the pieces are sitting together at the bottom of the pic. My old crossmember didn't have that piece nor the holes for it to ever have had a plate riveted in. I'd like to just run the crossmember without that piece. My radiator brackets I had only were riveted on using two rivets, what is left of the radiator brackets on the new crossmember use three or four each. I just want to be sure it will work before I install it. Thanks.

[David J]

The rusty looking one is 34 . Your chopped up one is 33 . The straps do not belong but the plates underneath are proper 33 .

[PhoenixFear]

I was wondering that, oh well, it will work I guess. I don't have much choice at this point. I'll run it without that broken strap that goes underneath between the spring and crossmember. Hopefully I won't have to cut it up any in order for this 8BA engine to fit. I'll be using 8RT truck water pumps, probably those U-shaped spacers, a car crankshaft pulley and a truck oil pan.