The Ford Barn

hazelhoff · 10-26-2018, 11:10 AM

My rebuilt engine hasn't run yet. A month ago I filles the cooling system using distilled water and some Bardahl protector. Today I find 'something' is leaking from the head gasket, all around the engine. The stuff dripping down is brown and sticky. Is Bardahl eating my copper head gasket ? Any ideas ?

J Franklin · 10-26-2018, 12:42 PM

Sometimes coolant seeps through the filler material in the gasket to the outside of the block. It most likely is not a problem but is unsightly. An old-timer fix is to seal the edges of the gasket water passage edges before assembly. After you get it running and do a few re-torques on the head nuts it probably will not continue.

hazelhoff · 10-26-2018, 01:31 PM

Thx J.Franklin, my head gasket is from Mac's, some 30 years ago. My guess would be the gasket filler material doesn't handle the modern additive to the cooling water. The additive created lots of small channels to the outside of the block. Once they were there, clear coolant is coming out. So my guess would be the residues I found earlier (brown and sticky) are filler material resolved by the cooling water additive I used. If so, we should put a warning out not to use any unsafe additives ???

30 Closed Cab PU · 10-26-2018, 01:34 PM

Perhaps using a modern copper gasket is advisable?

J Franklin · 10-26-2018, 03:37 PM

I wouldn't change a thing unless you have to after running the car for a while and doing the re-torques.

chap52 · 10-26-2018, 05:52 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Run it and re-torque before you tear into it. Some of those additives need heat to help them seal properly. Chap

1crosscut · 10-26-2018, 07:56 PM

While I'm not familiar with Bardahl I looked it up on line and found two products on their website that were for cooling systems. One was an anti rust (rust remover) and water pump lubricant. The directions for it were to add it to the coolant, run it for 15 minutes, let the system cool, drain the solution and then refill with a standard type coolant mixture.
The other was a stop leak product that is to be added to a coolant mixture.

If one of these is what you used with just distilled water I'm thinking you may have inadvertently allowed considerable rust to form in the block. Have you drained some water to see what it looks like?

Seems to me that putting water into an engine and letting it rest for an extended period without running it through several heat / cool cycles and re-torquing until the head gasket settles in opens the door for the gasket to leak.

Putting a 50/50 coolant solution into an engine is one of the last things I do just before start up. I see no reason to put in a stop leak product into a new rebuild to fix a problem that probably is not there.

J Franklin · 10-27-2018, 12:57 AM

I agree with 1crosscut drain the solution from the block until you are ready to run your car. You can store it in a jug. I use a powered stop leak product to stop gasket weep.

hazelhoff · 10-27-2018, 07:05 AM

1crosscut,
You are right. not intended for permanent usage. Too bad there were no instructions on how to apply. Dutch description make it look like you can leave this stuff in.
This stuff seems to be very agressive. I drained the sysstem and will have to put a new headgasket in.

katy · 10-27-2018, 09:11 AM

Did you check the cylinders?

hazelhoff · 10-27-2018, 09:58 AM

Katy, not yet, will do. I am hoping the shape if the copper head gasket is such that the gasket filler is not in touch with the cylinder space.

30 Closed Cab PU · 10-27-2018, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Franklin

I agree with 1crosscut drain the solution from the block until you are ready to run your car. You can store it in a jug. I use a powered stop leak product to stop gasket weep.

If leaving it for a while after draining, perhaps thoroughly flush/backflush with water, or water/dawn, or white vinegar to insure nothing gets left in the motor?

1crosscut · 10-27-2018, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

If leaving it for a while after draining, perhaps thoroughly flush/backflush with water, or water/dawn, or white vinegar to insure nothing gets left in the motor?

I like the idea of flushing the engine / radiator prior to removing the head.

J Franklin · 10-27-2018, 12:42 PM

Do you really want/need to remove the head? It just seems to be a premature operation before running and a couple of re-torques. The filler material does not reach the cylinder bores or valve area, just the water jacket holes.

hazelhoff · 10-27-2018, 12:54 PM

Will flush tomorrow ! Good idea thx

Tinbasher · 10-27-2018, 12:59 PM

I had the same thing with my engine. After I run it 5 times and re-torqued the head 5 times as the builder told me to do. The sealant stopped coming out between the head and the block. Wait until you do this. Save yourself some grief.

100IH · 10-27-2018, 01:32 PM

All gaskets that are layered or thick composition will settle (sink to being thinner) with heat and cooling cycles. That's why the re-torque is important.

hazelhoff · 10-27-2018, 04:03 PM

J.franklin, thats what i need ! I will flush and then change the gasket, what the heck ! I do'nt want to live with the idea my gaseket in not ok!

30 Closed Cab PU · 10-27-2018, 04:19 PM

Am not sure what the Bardall would do if it got in the radiator, especially if left in for a long time, not familiar with it. Possibly either coat the tubes, or plug it up - causing running hot or boiling over?

J Franklin · 10-27-2018, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelhoff

J.franklin, thats what i need ! I will flush and then change the gasket, what the heck ! I do'nt want to live with the idea my gaseket in not ok!

Why do you think the gasket is bad? I am saying do not remove the head until you have a running engine and know you need to change the gasket. At least 2-3 heat/cool/re-torque cycles.

hazelhoff · 10-28-2018, 08:21 AM

J.Franklin, maybe you are right. I filled her up with clear water and there are only two small leaks left, front right. So i will follow your advice and retorque the head first.

30 Closed Cab PU · 10-28-2018, 09:13 AM

If after the retorque and still uncomfortable or still leaking, perhaps contact Bardalls or a distributor of Bardalls and ask their opinions. ask if it should be flushed out, if yes ask about proper flushing. If using white vinegar or something caustic a final flush of distilled water/baking soda to neutralize .

And/or contact a Model A restoration shop or motor rebuilder withsame questions.

daveymc29 · 10-28-2018, 09:39 AM

After re-torquing the head, start the engine and go through at least warming it up and see if the radiator is plugged. I would be more concerned with that than degradation of the copper head-gasket. The Bardahl may now be a lump in the system somewhere. What was the thinking in putting the engine together and then not finishing by running and torquing a few time? That is a procedure I have not been informed of yet. May have merit, but I fail to see any logic there. Perhaps we can all learn.

30 Closed Cab PU · 10-28-2018, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Why do you think the gasket is bad? I am saying do not remove the head until you have a running engine and know you need to change the gasket. At least 2-3 heat/cool/re-torque cycles.

"
#9 hazelhoff
Senior Member

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 205

Re: Weard leaks
1crosscut,
You are right. not intended for permanent usage. Too bad there were no instructions on how to apply. Dutch description make it look like you can leave this stuff in.
This stuff seems to be very agressive. I drained the sysstem and will have to put a new headgasket in.
----------------------------------

He seems to think the Bardalls is active/aggresive, and is concerned about it slowly causing damage that will show up in the future. One of the reasons I suggested calling a distributor or Bardalls.

100IH · 10-28-2018, 11:22 AM

As others have said; Heat is an essential part of the head gasket job. Heat and cooling cycles. Not just warm, Hot, then re -torque after cooling. After this process, then you can judge the job technique and materials.

DHZIEMAN · 11-01-2018, 11:46 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Run the engine, get it good and warm! Turn if off, let it cool and re-torque the head. This is done by loosening and re-tightening the head bolts. For the bolt by the distributor, use a crows foot to save having to pull the distributor. Let us know how this goes!

hazelhoff · 11-01-2018, 12:57 PM

Once more an update, the gasket is leaking all over the place again when filling up. Today I removed the head. Water all over the place ! Even one cylinder was attacked !
The Dutch product description basically says you should leave the Bardahl in. The American product instructions say you have to drain it after running for 15 minutes.
Believe me, Bardahl eats your head gasket ! Spefically the asbestos. It is dangerous to your system !

hazelhoff · 12-15-2019, 09:52 AM

So, you guys think it is OK for the head gasket to leak some drops of water after installation ? Will it end after a few runs/retorques ?
Do you want to apply some locktite sealant extra to the standard copper gasket around the water holes ?

Russ/40 · 12-15-2019, 11:54 AM

I have found that when using a copper gasket, if you use a liberal application of Permatex Copper Spray, you will not have any weeping of coolant, either from studs or from the edge of the gasket. This does not mean you can skip the required re-torque sequence. The mess you get glueing the gasket to head and block surfaces when using composite gaskets is a non-issue with copper gaskets.

1crosscut · 12-15-2019, 12:12 PM

I don't think that it should leak after installation of new head gasket.

Everyone seems to have a different way of going about installing a new head gasket. If you are putting in new studs check each one to see if it goes into the water jacket. I put a bit of Indian Head shellac on the threads going into the block on each stud.
I use two light coats of copper coat spray on the copper head gaskets allowing the solvents to flash off between coats. Install the head while the gasket is still a bit tacky.

midgetracer · 12-15-2019, 03:48 PM

Have you milled the cylinder head? Most used heads I have found are not flat and need to be milled. This could cause your leaks.

hazelhoff · 12-16-2019, 06:43 AM

Yes, the block and the head were milled !

ryanheacox · 12-16-2019, 08:08 AM

If it is only seeping through the filler material in the gasket you can put in some stop leak like others have said. If the gasket isn't hemmed on either end there's always a chance coolant will seep through.

100IH · 12-16-2019, 04:19 PM

Mine Gott. Why did you put in this additive in the first place - Leaking? now leaking still so it is the additive. I am sure no stop leak that has been around for 50 - 70 years eats head gaskets. When you pulled the head, why did you not drain the coolant first. Did you study the old gasket for signs of damage or failure. What were the results? The old gasket might indicate problems in the surfaces that still exist. Non hardening sealers are OK around the studs threads and the gasket holes but not locktite.

10-26-2018, 11:10 AM	#1
hazelhoff Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 387	Weard leaks My rebuilt engine hasn't run yet. A month ago I filles the cooling system using distilled water and some Bardahl protector. Today I find 'something' is leaking from the head gasket, all around the engine. The stuff dripping down is brown and sticky. Is Bardahl eating my copper head gasket ? Any ideas ?

10-26-2018, 12:42 PM	#2
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,959	Re: Weard leaks Sometimes coolant seeps through the filler material in the gasket to the outside of the block. It most likely is not a problem but is unsightly. An old-timer fix is to seal the edges of the gasket water passage edges before assembly. After you get it running and do a few re-torques on the head nuts it probably will not continue.

10-26-2018, 01:31 PM	#3
hazelhoff Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 387	Re: Weard leaks Thx J.Franklin, my head gasket is from Mac's, some 30 years ago. My guess would be the gasket filler material doesn't handle the modern additive to the cooling water. The additive created lots of small channels to the outside of the block. Once they were there, clear coolant is coming out. So my guess would be the residues I found earlier (brown and sticky) are filler material resolved by the cooling water additive I used. If so, we should put a warning out not to use any unsafe additives ???

10-26-2018, 01:34 PM	#4
30 Closed Cab PU Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,332	Re: Weard leaks Perhaps using a modern copper gasket is advisable?

10-26-2018, 03:37 PM	#5
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,959	Re: Weard leaks I wouldn't change a thing unless you have to after running the car for a while and doing the re-torques.

10-26-2018, 05:52 PM	#6
chap52 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Marana Arizona Posts: 1,776	Re: Weard leaks Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Run it and re-torque before you tear into it. Some of those additives need heat to help them seal properly. Chap

10-26-2018, 07:56 PM	#7
1crosscut Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska Posts: 1,907	Re: Weard leaks While I'm not familiar with Bardahl I looked it up on line and found two products on their website that were for cooling systems. One was an anti rust (rust remover) and water pump lubricant. The directions for it were to add it to the coolant, run it for 15 minutes, let the system cool, drain the solution and then refill with a standard type coolant mixture. The other was a stop leak product that is to be added to a coolant mixture. If one of these is what you used with just distilled water I'm thinking you may have inadvertently allowed considerable rust to form in the block. Have you drained some water to see what it looks like? Seems to me that putting water into an engine and letting it rest for an extended period without running it through several heat / cool cycles and re-torquing until the head gasket settles in opens the door for the gasket to leak. Putting a 50/50 coolant solution into an engine is one of the last things I do just before start up. I see no reason to put in a stop leak product into a new rebuild to fix a problem that probably is not there. __________________ Dave / Lincoln Nebraska

10-27-2018, 12:57 AM	#8
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,959	Re: Weard leaks I agree with 1crosscut drain the solution from the block until you are ready to run your car. You can store it in a jug. I use a powered stop leak product to stop gasket weep.

10-27-2018, 07:05 AM	#9
hazelhoff Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 387	Re: Weard leaks 1crosscut, You are right. not intended for permanent usage. Too bad there were no instructions on how to apply. Dutch description make it look like you can leave this stuff in. This stuff seems to be very agressive. I drained the sysstem and will have to put a new headgasket in.

10-27-2018, 09:11 AM	#10
katy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Red Deer, Alberta Posts: 5,042	Re: Weard leaks Did you check the cylinders? __________________ If you don't hear a rumor by 10 AM, start one!. Got my education out behind the barn!

10-27-2018, 09:58 AM	#11
hazelhoff Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 387	Re: Weard leaks Katy, not yet, will do. I am hoping the shape if the copper head gasket is such that the gasket filler is not in touch with the cylinder space.

10-27-2018, 12:42 PM	#14
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,959	Re: Weard leaks Do you really want/need to remove the head? It just seems to be a premature operation before running and a couple of re-torques. The filler material does not reach the cylinder bores or valve area, just the water jacket holes.

10-27-2018, 12:54 PM	#15
hazelhoff Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 387	Re: Weard leaks Will flush tomorrow ! Good idea thx

10-27-2018, 12:59 PM	#16
Tinbasher Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Innisfil, Ontario Canada Posts: 1,174	Re: Weard leaks I had the same thing with my engine. After I run it 5 times and re-torqued the head 5 times as the builder told me to do. The sealant stopped coming out between the head and the block. Wait until you do this. Save yourself some grief.

10-27-2018, 01:32 PM	#17
100IH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 970	Re: Weard leaks All gaskets that are layered or thick composition will settle (sink to being thinner) with heat and cooling cycles. That's why the re-torque is important.

10-27-2018, 04:03 PM	#18
hazelhoff Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 387	Re: Weard leaks J.franklin, thats what i need ! I will flush and then change the gasket, what the heck ! I do'nt want to live with the idea my gaseket in not ok!

10-27-2018, 04:19 PM	#19
30 Closed Cab PU Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,332	Re: Weard leaks Am not sure what the Bardall would do if it got in the radiator, especially if left in for a long time, not familiar with it. Possibly either coat the tubes, or plug it up - causing running hot or boiling over?

10-28-2018, 08:21 AM	#21
hazelhoff Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 387	Re: Weard leaks J.Franklin, maybe you are right. I filled her up with clear water and there are only two small leaks left, front right. So i will follow your advice and retorque the head first.

10-28-2018, 09:13 AM	#22
30 Closed Cab PU Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,332	Re: Weard leaks If after the retorque and still uncomfortable or still leaking, perhaps contact Bardalls or a distributor of Bardalls and ask their opinions. ask if it should be flushed out, if yes ask about proper flushing. If using white vinegar or something caustic a final flush of distilled water/baking soda to neutralize . And/or contact a Model A restoration shop or motor rebuilder withsame questions.

10-28-2018, 09:39 AM	#23
daveymc29 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Danville, CA Posts: 1,553	Re: Weard leaks After re-torquing the head, start the engine and go through at least warming it up and see if the radiator is plugged. I would be more concerned with that than degradation of the copper head-gasket. The Bardahl may now be a lump in the system somewhere. What was the thinking in putting the engine together and then not finishing by running and torquing a few time? That is a procedure I have not been informed of yet. May have merit, but I fail to see any logic there. Perhaps we can all learn.

10-28-2018, 11:22 AM	#25
100IH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 970	Re: Weard leaks As others have said; Heat is an essential part of the head gasket job. Heat and cooling cycles. Not just warm, Hot, then re -torque after cooling. After this process, then you can judge the job technique and materials.

11-01-2018, 11:46 AM	#26
DHZIEMAN Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Sunrise Beach, Mo Posts: 439	Re: Weard leaks Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Run the engine, get it good and warm! Turn if off, let it cool and re-torque the head. This is done by loosening and re-tightening the head bolts. For the bolt by the distributor, use a crows foot to save having to pull the distributor. Let us know how this goes!

11-01-2018, 12:57 PM	#27
hazelhoff Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 387	Re: Weard leaks Once more an update, the gasket is leaking all over the place again when filling up. Today I removed the head. Water all over the place ! Even one cylinder was attacked ! The Dutch product description basically says you should leave the Bardahl in. The American product instructions say you have to drain it after running for 15 minutes. Believe me, Bardahl eats your head gasket ! Spefically the asbestos. It is dangerous to your system !

12-15-2019, 09:52 AM	#28
hazelhoff Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 387	Re: Weard leaks So, you guys think it is OK for the head gasket to leak some drops of water after installation ? Will it end after a few runs/retorques ? Do you want to apply some locktite sealant extra to the standard copper gasket around the water holes ?

12-15-2019, 11:54 AM	#29
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: Weard leaks I have found that when using a copper gasket, if you use a liberal application of Permatex Copper Spray, you will not have any weeping of coolant, either from studs or from the edge of the gasket. This does not mean you can skip the required re-torque sequence. The mess you get glueing the gasket to head and block surfaces when using composite gaskets is a non-issue with copper gaskets.

12-15-2019, 12:12 PM	#30
1crosscut Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska Posts: 1,907	Re: Weard leaks I don't think that it should leak after installation of new head gasket. Everyone seems to have a different way of going about installing a new head gasket. If you are putting in new studs check each one to see if it goes into the water jacket. I put a bit of Indian Head shellac on the threads going into the block on each stud. I use two light coats of copper coat spray on the copper head gaskets allowing the solvents to flash off between coats. Install the head while the gasket is still a bit tacky. __________________ Dave / Lincoln Nebraska

12-15-2019, 03:48 PM	#31
midgetracer Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bismarck ND Posts: 1,189	Re: Weard leaks Have you milled the cylinder head? Most used heads I have found are not flat and need to be milled. This could cause your leaks.

12-16-2019, 06:43 AM	#32
hazelhoff Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 387	Re: Weard leaks Yes, the block and the head were milled !

12-16-2019, 08:08 AM	#33
ryanheacox Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Northwest CT Posts: 1,092	Re: Weard leaks If it is only seeping through the filler material in the gasket you can put in some stop leak like others have said. If the gasket isn't hemmed on either end there's always a chance coolant will seep through.

12-16-2019, 04:19 PM	#34
100IH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 970	Re: Weard leaks Mine Gott. Why did you put in this additive in the first place - Leaking? now leaking still so it is the additive. I am sure no stop leak that has been around for 50 - 70 years eats head gaskets. When you pulled the head, why did you not drain the coolant first. Did you study the old gasket for signs of damage or failure. What were the results? The old gasket might indicate problems in the surfaces that still exist. Non hardening sealers are OK around the studs threads and the gasket holes but not locktite.