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Old 02-15-2016, 11:52 AM   #21
moefuzz
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatjack9 View Post
I don't see a problem with using synthetic in a Flathead. Probably not on an old well worn engine. But we build these engines today with pretty close tolerances, just like any modern engine. And I don't like using diesel oil in a Flathead either. It is not formulated like a gas engine oil.


Don't be fooled,

Shell Rotella T, the original Rotella T is exactly the oil that everybody
bought and used (irregardless of name brand) up until about 1980
when the SAE/API specifications were updated due to catalytic converters

The original Rotella T may be popular in Diesel engines today yet it was
amongst the most popular SAE/API spec gasoline engine oils ever run
threw Detroit steel up until we were handed the new spec oils 35 years
ago.

Our Flatheads have not changed and neither has the original Shell Rotella T
oil.




Almost every oil/manufacturer on the market today has updated their
current engine oil offerings to newer SAE/API specs except for a few like
Shell, Which still offers us the original formula of Rotella T that would
have been/is equivalent in spec to/as pre 1979~ Chevron Delo, Royal
Purple, Mobil Delvac, Valvoline premium, Citgo Citgard, Connoco Phillips
76, Castrol Tech etc.



The newer Rotella T3 is the original blend somewhat updated but still
to pre 1980 API/SFI specs featuring the original high ZDDP and high
phosphorus contents that all oils held up until the advent of catalytic converters.



If you wish to run the closest thing to what every piece of American steel
was born and bread on for more than 75 years, then you will not get anything closer
than the original Single grade conventional oil—in SAE 20, 30, 40 and 50
Rotella T with it's pre 1979~ specifications that is still popular on the
gasoline/racing/turbocharging/diesel/farm/motorcycle market today..
(Or T3 in multi-grades)

Personally, I have been running Synthetic oils in almost every vehicle I
have owned since 1984 including and at times, Model A's, Flathead V8's
and always daily drivers.
I have owned about 65 classic cars and trucks in that time and generally
commute (up to) 60,000 miles a year with daily drivers.

I do oil changes on vehicles every September before the snow flies,
(Including the Flatheads and Bangers) and this is what I bought to get
me thru winter 2015.

My 28 Model A got the Rotella T3 and the Flathead V8's all got synthetic.
I have a 1979 LTD Special (Fire Chiefs Car with lights) that has a leaky
rear seal so it got regular non synthetic oil and will do so until I fix the
seal.










.




Don't be scared of Rotella T, Rotella T3 , Chevron Delo,
or the excellent money saving Synthetic oils that you can run for
10,000+ miles whether it's your daily driver or even in Flatheads.

Consider this; the new Synthetic oils are being used in Heavy Truck applications
today and the manufacturers recommended oil change interval on
most semi's is between 25,000 and 40,000 miles using one oil filter.

All Synthetic oils surpass Rotella T in engine protection while offering
superior adherence to on-spec weight/viscosity for many more thousands of miles/hours.
That is to say that they will remain to be an on spec W30 viscosity oil for 10 times longer than a similiar non synthetic 30 weight oil (which
tends to thin rapidly with age after roughly ~2000 miles).


http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...ange-intervals










Rotella T and Rotella T3 is a high ZDDP and High
Phosphorus Content
oil compatible with older engines with or without flat tappet cams and/or
hardened valve seats just as it was prior to 1980.










======================================
Shell Rotella T

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Shell Rotella T is a line of heavy duty engine lubrication products

produced by Shell Oil Company. The line includes engine oils, gear oils

and coolants. The oil carries both the American Petroleum Institute (API)

diesel "C" rating as well as the API gasoline engine "S" rating. Ratings

differ based on the oil. Rotella oils like T3 15w-40 meets both the API

CJ-4 and SM specifications, and may be used in both gasoline and diesel

engines. However, it is formulated specifically for vehicles without

catalytic converters, containing phosphorus levels beyond the

600-800ppm range.[1] Therefore, Rotella is not recommended for gasoline

vehicles with catalytic converters due to the higher risk of damaging

these emission controls.[2] Newer formulations of Rotella T6 however are

API SM rated as safe for pre-2011 gasoline vehicles.


Product lineup


In the engine oil family, there are four basic oil sub-families:
  • Multigrade conventional oil—in SAE 10W-30 and 15W-40 viscosity
  • ranges
  • Multigrade synthetic oil—in SAE 5W-40
  • Single grade conventional oil—in SAE 20, 30, 40 and 50
  • Synthetic blend oil
Both the multigrade conventional oil (10W-30 and 15W-40) and the

synthetic SAE 5W-40 meet the newest API certification of CJ-4/SM.
Shell is marketing their new CJ-4/SM oil as "Triple Protection," meaning it

provides enhanced qualities for engine wear, soot control and engine

cleanliness. Shell's Rotella website indicates that on-road testing

confirms the new Triple Protection technology produces better anti-wear

characteristics than their existing CI-4+ rated Rotella oil.

This is achieved despite a lower zinc and phosphorus additive level as

called for by the API CJ-4 specification. (The 15W-40 Rotella T with Triple

Protection oil has approximately
1200 ppm of zinc and 1100 ppm

phosphorus at the time of manufacture.)




Competitors

Rotella competes with similar lubrication products from other oil

manufacturers. Some notable competitive products are:
  • ConocoPhillips 76 Lubricants Guardol ECT w/ Liquid Titanium
  • Mobil Delvac
  • Chevron Delo
  • Petro-Canada Duron
  • CITGO Citgard
  • Royal Purple
  • Valvoline Premimum Blue
  • Castrol Tection
Motorcycle usage

Though marketed as an engine oil for diesel trucks, Rotella oil has found

popularity with motorcyclists as well. The lack of "friction modifiers" in

Rotella means they do not interfere with wet clutch operations.

This is called a "shared sump" design, which is unlike automobiles which

maintain separate oil reservoirs - one for the engine and one for the

transmission. Used oil analysis (UOA) reports on BobIsTheOilGuy.com

have shown wear metals levels comparable to oils marketed as

motorcycle-specific.

Use in turbocharged cars

Likewise with motorcycles, though marketed as an engine oil for diesel

trucks, Rotella T6 5w-40 synthetic oil has also found popularity with

drivers and tuners of gasoline powered vehicles that utilize turbocharging

or other forms of forced induction. Several owners of high performance

model cars have adopted its use due to its high heat tolerance and its

resistance to shearing. Rotella T6 is a Non Energy Conserving Oil, and

does not meet GF-5 Oil specifications. When Rotella T6 was revised for

the API specification(for use in spark ignition motors), its Zinc levels

were effectively reduced. Higher(content) Zinc Additives(ZDDP) are

required for flat tappet engines and cartridge bearings, which In previous

formulations Rotella T6 had desirable levels of Zinc(ZDDP).
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Old 02-15-2016, 11:55 AM   #22
moefuzz
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireEngineMike View Post
Guy, how many miles were on the rebuild when you switched to synthetic?
Everyone else, how many miles do you run break-in oil before switching to what you run long term?

Fire Engine Mike,

Here is an old link to a similiar problem that may help answer some questions....




http://www.flatheadv8.org/blowby.htm


.

Last edited by moefuzz; 02-15-2016 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 02-15-2016, 01:39 PM   #23
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

Thanks for the info. Every reference on here about Rotella called it a diesel oil.
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Old 02-15-2016, 02:34 PM   #24
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireEngineMike View Post
Guy, how many miles were on the rebuild when you switched to synthetic?
Everyone else, how many miles do you run break-in oil before switching to what you run long term?
I run Rotella T long term. With the low mileage our hobby cars get, I'll be 100 years old before I need another rebuild.

Oh, and they call it diesel oil because it is not approved for modern gasoline engines. That doesn't mean it is not approved for old gasoline engines.
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Old 02-15-2016, 02:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatjack9 View Post
Thanks for the info. Every reference on here about Rotella called it a diesel oil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51Merc View Post

.... they call it diesel oil because it is not approved for modern gasoline engines.

That doesn't mean it is not approved for old gasoline engines.







Guys,



Shell openly admits that since the advent of catalytic converters,
they market directly to diesel owners due to not really having a market of people who don't have catalytic converters.

The gasoline market dried up so no real use in pushing it on 2015 vette owners.

If it didn't harm your beloved catalytic converters, it would still be an excellent oil across the board (including and most importantly, engines with hi perf flat tappet cams and engines without hardened valve seats).


The truth is, all manufacturers reduced the amount of zddp and phosphorus because it plugs your favorite exhaust parts.




One last note, Rotella T (the original blend) comes in straight weights just as Henry Ford recommended for our Flatheads.
-Straight weight 10w winter and 40w summer

Rotella T3 comes in multi weights 10-w30 and 15w40 etc.
Rotella T3 includes even more zddp and phosphorus than the original Rotella T straight weights.


That's about all there is to it.





From the Petroleum Quality Institute;
Independent Testing












.
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Old 02-15-2016, 02:58 PM   #26
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

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The new exhaust regeneration in diesels has turned the diesel oils into crap to in a near future.
Only way to get a descent oil is to look for what they call classic oils.
My favourite oil went from 1800ppm to 1300ppm ZDDP without any change in the paper specs.
Check check again and never trust the seller
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Old 02-15-2016, 03:32 PM   #27
moefuzz
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatheadmurre View Post
The new exhaust regeneration in diesels has turned the diesel oils into crap to in a near future.
Only way to get a descent oil is to look for what they call classic oils.
My favourite oil went from 1800ppm to 1300ppm ZDDP without any change in the paper specs.
Check check again and never trust the seller


.

I understand that Europe does not have to use, adhere or respect the American API standards and requirements.

Over here, it is closely regulated/watched.

Manufacturers cannot change ingredients without changing labels.
They are held highly accountable, unlike the rest of the free world,
which may or may not adhere to other worldly or make believe standards.

The American Petroleum Institute Holds accountable products manufactured and/or sold into the American Market.
API regularly -independently purchases off the shelf products
and tests them against the manufacturers claims, and against competitive manufacturers products.
But not in Sveden and especially not OPEC. sorry



American Petroleum Institute


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

American Petroleum Institute

Headquarters Washington, DC Membership
400 companies in petroleum industry President
Jack Gerard[1] Website api.org The American Petroleum Institute (API) is the largest U.S trade association for the oil and natural gas industry. It claims to represent about 400 corporations involved in production, refinement, distribution, and many other aspects of the petroleum industry.
The association’s chief functions on behalf of the industry include advocacy, negotiation and lobbying with governmental, legal, and regulatory agencies; research into economic, toxicological, and environmental effects; establishment and certification of industry standards; and education outreach.

API both funds and conducts research related to many aspects of the petroleum industry


API (also) defines the industry standard for the energy conservation of motor oil. API SN is the latest specification to which motor oils intended for spark-ignited engines should adhere since 2010. It supersedes API SM.
Different specifications exist for compression-ignited engines
.



.

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Old 02-15-2016, 04:02 PM   #28
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

mofuzz, A very interesting post. I am wondering: what exactly happens to our catalytic converters using the non approved oil? How does stuff from the oil get into the fuel injection and exhaust system?
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:09 PM   #29
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

The cylinder wall are oiled on each stroke and the rings (especially the oil control rings) scrape the oil off. This is not a 100% perfect process and depending on the condition of the engine a very small film is left on the cylinder walls. The same applies to the valve stems.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:31 PM   #30
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Immler View Post
mofuzz, A very interesting post. I am wondering: what exactly happens to our catalytic converters using the non approved oil? How does stuff from the oil get into the fuel injection and exhaust system?

Joe, the additives that we as old timers like to see in our oil
don't burn on ignition.
They will sneak past the rings and plug up the converter.
No converter, no problem (shhh! don't tell Al Gore!)
I tend to believe it's mostly the phosphorus/ash.
-High Ash Oils.
I think Ash acts as a cushion on valve seats, a job that leaded gas used to help/do.

And leaded gas disappeared up here in Canada at the same time and for the same reason, -just as catalytic Converters were introduced because lead also accumulated and plugged up the converter.




Honestly, Leaded gas was more responsible for plugging the converter but the tiny bit of ash over 50,000 miles didn't help either so it had to go to.
That's why you can still buy old technology oil for diesels, no converters...


Now, with the new diesel technology, people are being forced to buy urea right about every time they do an oil change on their trucks.

We can Thank the tree huggers for
creating a market that
sees you pay about
$50 extra to fill the urea tank
about every time you change the oil
or you will
void your new A̶l̶ ̶G̶o̶r̶e̶ Chevrolly diesel warranty.




.

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Old 02-15-2016, 05:00 PM   #31
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

.



......Should probably mention that since about the turn of the century,
piston/Oil ring control has improved greatly.

For Cars, Trucks, Vehicles, Engines, Engines blocks (at least for those manufacturers who don't sell you $25,000 in total/absolute planned obsolescence attached to 57 cent ignition switches that turn the anti lock brakes and airbags off when driving)

and especially






===================



??


===================


Ok,

Within The Last 20 Years,
Advancements In The Area Of

Piston ring and seating
has been improved significantly
thru tighter tolerances and
advances in metallurgy



......to almost eliminate blowby and/or oil residues not being scrapped off the cylinder wall before the big bang.



Manufacturers like Ford have been able to dramatically 'tighten up' the combustion chamber as well as extend cylinder wall and engine life.


This is one of the reasons that we are seeing many manufacturers recommend 10,000 mile oil intervals today as opposed to the 2500 mile recommended oil change of just a few years ago.


Little to nothing is getting past the rings to contaminate the engine oil, oil stays cleaner, catalytic converters stay cleaner, cars last longer, well at least at one Detroit manufacturer they do anyway.




I suspect that with today's engines, even a high ash oil could do little damage to the converter. It was mostly the lead in leaded gas anyway and that took years to accumulate.



....Just My Humble Opinion
..And I Am Opinionated
-moe










Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
The cylinder wall are oiled on each stroke and the rings (especially the oil control rings) scrape the oil off. This is not a 100% perfect process and depending on the condition of the engine a very small film is left on the cylinder walls. The same applies to the valve stems.


JSeery has got it right....




.











.

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Old 02-15-2016, 05:17 PM   #32
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

You might try a can of "Sea foam" in the crank. I had some smoking out of my stock '49 after sitting for an entire cold winter. One can cured the smoking. Definitely a temporary fix, but might hold you till you tear it down again. Sea Foam available in any auto part store.
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Old 02-15-2016, 05:27 PM   #33
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

Break in oil is probably the best bet.
300 miles or so is the norm for new engines.
On old engines with glazed cylinder walls, I have left it in for as long as 600 miles.
That particular time I almost completely eliminated the heavy blue haze emanating from one 5 letter word V8 that I had.




The link is a few messages back regarding blowby.

But for those who missed the link on Blowby
And All Things 'Smoke' Coming Out Of Your Engine,




Here it is again,


-Read up on funny V8 Smoke and how to quite it....





.

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Old 02-15-2016, 05:35 PM   #34
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

The API standards or any other standard says what the oil should be able to do...not how it should do it or how the different companies should mix their product.
So the oilcompanies is constantly trying to develope a product that can meet the higher standards at the same time as the old ones and if they can a bit cheaper.
The brand name and designation of the oil can remain while they adjust the mix of it.
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Old 02-15-2016, 06:18 PM   #35
moefuzz
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatheadmurre View Post

The API standards or any other standard says what the oil should be do...
not how it should do it or how the different companies should mix their product.
So the oilcompanies is constantly trying to develope a product .. cheaper.
The brand name and designation of the oil can remain while they adjust the mix of it.



Not in America.
The rest of the world, yes.
API is a governing body and it governs more than just engine oil.

Here, The mixture won't be any different than what the label states.
If in America, API spec is for a certain mixture, than the label must say so.

That's not to say that they may eventually change the blend,
But they cannot maintain the specific API designation that is stamped on the cap/bottle and put something different inside.



There is no getting around what the spec says
unless you Forfeit your prized API License.



---------=================-----------



Shell has continually brought new products to the market (just like others) to meet manufacturers requirements for newer engines but they have kept the original progressive upgrades of the Rotella line.
That's why we still have the original Rotella T, T3, T5, T6,
And along with the actual API/SAE spec, that's what is stated on each bottle respectively. Nothing more and nothing less.







Flashead Murrey,

Perhaps a thorough reading of American Petroleum Institute
would put things into perspective?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ...leum_Institute

API Standards Committees are made up of subcommittees and task groups that works and maintain these standards. the list of Committee and Subcommittee is:
  • Committee on Standardization of Oilfield Equipment & Materials (CSOEM)
    • SC2- Subcommittee on Offshore Structures
    • SC17- Subcommittee on Subsea Production Equipment
    • SC5- Subcommittee on Tubular Goods
    • SC6- Subcommittee on Valves & Wellhead Equipment
    • SC8- Subcommittee on Drilling Structures & Equipment
    • SC10- Subcommittee on Well Cements
    • SC11- Subcommittee on Field Operating Equipment
    • SC13- Subcommittee on Drill Completion & Fracturing Fluids
    • SC15- Subcommittee on Fiberglass & Plastic Tubulars
    • SC16- Subcommittee on Drilling Well Control Equipment
    • SC18- Subcommittee on Quality
    • SC19- Subcommittee on Completion Equipment
    • SC20- Subcommittee on Supply Chain Management
  • Committee on Refinery Equipment (CRE)
    • Subcommittee on Corrosion & Materials
    • Subcommittee on Electrical Equipment
    • Subcommittee on Heat Transfer Equipment
    • Subcommittee on Inspection
    • Subcommittee on Instruments & Control Systems
    • Subcommittee on Mechanical Equipment
    • Subcommittee on Piping & Valves
    • Subcommittee on Pressure-Relieving Systems
    • Subcommittee on Above ground Storage Tanks
  • Pipeline Standards Committees
  • Safety and Fire Protection Committee (SFPS)
  • API Committee on Petroleum Measurement (COPM)
    • Committee on Evaporation Loss Estimation
    • Committee on Measurement Accountability
    • Committee on Gas Fluids Measurement
    • Committee on Liquid Measurement
    • Committee on Measurement Quality
    • Committee on Production Measurement & Allocation
    • Committee on Measurement Education & Training












Sincerely,

your pal, moe










.

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Old 02-15-2016, 06:36 PM   #36
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

moefuzz. Thanks for all of this interesting info. It makes me proud that the API has had committees on Tubular Goods,Well Cements,Supply Chains and Above Ground Storage Tanks manufacturing a safe oil for my car and the environment. I certainly don't want to offend the Environmentalist Wackoes.
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Old 02-15-2016, 07:36 PM   #37
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Immler View Post
moefuzz. Thanks for all of this interesting info. It makes me proud that the API has had committees on Tubular Goods,Well Cements,Supply Chains and Above Ground Storage Tanks manufacturing a safe oil for my car and the environment..


Joe, I understand where you are coming from,
You being a Fire Fighter understands bureaucracy and/as well as political correctness.


This is more for my safety when I am working at 150 feet up a welded steel ladder on an ocean drilling platform on the Beaufort Sea.




The codes hold manufacturers accountable for lives that are lost due to Polish quality steel that no one in the USA will use, build, manufacture or incorporate at the cost of human life.

Any and all Petroleum production/jobs/wells/platforms/wellheads/processing plants/pressure or boiler vessels, ladders, buildings, under or on sea, land or air built in the USA or Canada will not use steel from certain countries including Poland, Ukraine, China, Korea and others.

I have welded 36" I beam for ocean going refinery platforms and at times you can smell strange things in the steel like PCB based coatings or radioactive leftovers that may have been used in the manufacturer/casting/forging of beams/pipes/hollow structures etc. that were manufactured in Czechoslovakia, Korea etc.


The API is the law in USA.
No one, No company can manufacture or market any product including the above mention oils, petro chemicals, gasoline, steels, plastics etc unless they show proof of adhering to the specifications laid out by the API,
which protect, my life, your life, the environment and Innocent victims.


--==========================--


What some fail to understand is that

companies like Shell etc, are Licensed by the API and must show complete and ongoing analysis and testing under API procedures before they can bring their oil or I beam to market.

Once Shell has proven content and submitted all the required test papers/procedures,
Only then can Shell APPLY FOR and Be Licensed to market that product.

The license can be revoked at anytime and Shell etc. is required by law to test and hold samples of every batch of said product for years just in case something goes wrong.

Shell must continually submit samples to the API for testing in order to maintain the right to hold a license to manufacture things like Rotella T rated at API CJ-4



--=============================--




In America,



The same specs hold true for
steels used on building things
like new twin towers
that Europeans
may wish to fly Aircraft into.





-Everybody just seems to think that we are living in bass-ackwards Poland and that you can put up to 35% antifreeze mixed in with the best red wine and no one will notice and no one is accountable when 100 Iron Workers die when the steel from Poland collapses on the 44th floor of the new Tower 2 in New York.




40 years ago I welded on contaminated steel from Czechoslovakia and it was not good then, it does not age well or loose it's radioactivity in 40 years and the pcb will give office workers cancer.

This is why WE have an API, and this is why Steel from a select few countries is specified, tested and used by North American manufacturers irregardless of whether the end product is for the USA or the Foreign market.



If your Polish product does not meet specifications, America will not license you and they will not use it.

But that doesn't mean that the rest of the world holds themselves responsible for "accidentally" putting lead in toothpaste or antifreeze in the best Polish wines.



I fully understand that foreigners don't get that fact that without a license, you can't drive a car in America without fear or retribution.



But maybe it's OK and nothing happens when you are driving without a license in Sweden and the anti freeze laced polish wine has gone to your head and the Russian quality steering knuckle on your Autogaz 500 fails and you take out a family?




-But in America,
things are licensed and
people are held accountable.



jmho,
And I Am Opinionated



.

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Old 02-15-2016, 07:53 PM   #38
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

By the way,


Shell is Licensed to produce Rotella T as API CJ-4 spec which I believe is a
1979 or 80 License/specification based on a 1967 License/spec which dates back even further, to the earliest of Rotella Formulas before there was an API granting them a License and permission to manufacture it for the North American Market.


CJ-4 has not changed since 1980.
-The license is still applied for, granted and/or up for revocation.

If the exact standards are not met with each and every Daily (365) batch, The License is revoked, Which means no oil, no product, no market.






-->The CJ-4 Spec is considered by the API to be
"On Hold"
(not cancelled or obsoleted).
This is a good thing for us old car guys.


Personally, I tend to believe that the 1967 API license refers to the point at which Shell brought the original 1940's?
Shell Rotella straight weight (10w 20w or 50w) oil into the new age of multi-grade oils (10w30 or 10w 50 etc) in 1967.



Since 1967, and certainly since 1979 or 80.
Rotella T has not changed
And more importantly for us old car guys,


The API considers it to be "On Hold".
























.
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Last edited by moefuzz; 02-20-2016 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:22 PM   #39
Joe Immler
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

moefuzz. I do hope you realize I was kidding. I was involved with the National Fire Protection Association standards for fire apparatus safety when I was general manager for a fire apparatus manufacturer. I know how these standards evolve.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:27 PM   #40
petehoovie
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Default Re: Flathead smoke

[QUOTE=moefuzz;1242354]
But in America, things are licensed and people are held accountable.

Except for people in government....
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