Two tooth steerg box

[Terry,NJ]

I put the new parts in the box from my coupe and I need some answers.
1st, does it make a heckuva big difference if I don't drive the worm the last .100 onto the shaft? So far, I used my backhoe, a forklift and a hand sledge hammer and a Mapp gas torch. Advice; Never buy the worm separately and think "I'll put it on myself"! It lifted the front wheels off the ground and never moved. The Case 580e weighs 14,000 lbs. I figure 1/2 that weight or about 3.5 tons was on it and the wheels came off the ground! I hammered it into the night and gave up with .100 to go. It wasn't moving any more.

2, Can someone post or reference the adjustment sequence. Even with the new parts, I can't get all the play out of the steering shaft. I tried everything.

3, How does one remove the lower bearing cup? I found a 22mm socket fit really well inside the bore, it caught the little lip nicely. Pressing and hammering didn't budge it so I checked the condition of the race. It was good so I left it.
Terry

[Mitch//pa]

Terry the worm presses right on like butter by threading the steering shaft and using a bolt & nut/washer. no drilling required the tap threads right into the exsisting shaft hole. you can remove the lower race by zapping it wtih a mig then the race will fall out. did you replace all the parts sector also, and what did you do for the sector bushing???? adjust according to service bulletins and may take a few times to get it right..

[Terry,NJ]

I feel so stupid! Yet, It's hard to believe that with all the pressure and force I used with limited success too, It would have gone on with so little effort, I've been wrong before!
Terry

[Joe K]

0.100 short (long) might not make that much of a difference - but you'll know when you go to put the light switch in and you can't compress the spring enough to put the keeper and spyder in place. Plus, you'll have a 0.100 gap at the top between the wheel and the spark/throttle sectors.

Worse though, with your installation methodology (brute force) is it possible to have bent the steering shaft? Even slightly may be fatal to your effort. Bent creates a situation where the worm "wobbles" between the bearings - can't be adjusted tight against the sector at all positions of the wheel - and makes the "equalization" process more difficult and may result in unequal, or at least too much free play as you try to adjust at that "just off binding" position in the center of travel.

Re-reading above I see you've encountered EXACTLY the problems I have anticipated. Keep in mind that free play at "center" should be zero (tight but just a skosh beyond binding for turning the wheel) and increases (and is equal either side) as you go out on either side of center.

To remove the lower bearing cup, insert a small punch in the two screw holes where the light switch receiver is normally bolted. By alternately hammering lightly you can "walk" the bearing out of it's seat until it falls out.

Joe K

[Terry,NJ]

Joe! I considered the gap and was so frustrated by the time I reached a stopping point that I figured that the .100 gap was acceptable! I didn't tell the full story. Actually, at one point I knocked the worm back off the shaft and filed the shaft where it was obvious that the was interference. I don't know if you've tried this but this is a weird arrangement between a spline and a keyway. It is designed to be forced on under pressure. I don't believe that it should have been so much pressure. I doubt it should have raised a chip, cutting it's way on. I have some suspicions that the part was made with a bore that was undersize. I bought the worm from Snyder's (No reflection on them) and the part was made in Argentina.
I was very concerned about the force I had used and the possibility that I may have bent the shaft. Then one helpful guy suggested we use his forklift and a heavy jack. We did and bowed the shaft about six inches under the force. We immediately removed the jack and the shaft jumped back to straight again. I couldn't believe my good luck and when I got it mounted between the two bearings, this was the first thing I checked for.
Terry

Originally Posted by Joe K

0.100 short (long) might not make that much of a difference - but you'll know when you go to put the light switch in and you can't compress the spring enough to put the keeper and spyder in place. Plus, you'll have a 0.100 gap at the top between the wheel and the spark/throttle sectors.

Worse though, with your installation methodology (brute force) is it possible to have bent the steering shaft? Even slightly may be fatal to your effort. Bent creates a situation where the worm "wobbles" between the bearings - can't be adjusted tight against the sector at all positions of the wheel - and makes the "equalization" process more difficult and may result in unequal, or at least too much free play as you try to adjust at that "just off binding" position in the center of travel.

Re-reading above I see you've encountered EXACTLY the problems I have anticipated. Keep in mind that free play at "center" should be zero (tight but just a skosh beyond binding for turning the wheel) and increases (and is equal either side) as you go out on either side of center.

To remove the lower bearing cup, insert a small punch in the two screw holes where the light switch receiver is normally bolted. By alternately hammering lightly you can "walk" the bearing out of it's seat until it falls out.

Joe K

[Purdy Swoft]

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I do mine the easy way. I buy the shaft with the worm gear installed . Its expensive but with new sector and new bearings and races it steers like a new car.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Terry,NJ

I don't know if you've tried this but this is a weird arrangement between a spline and a keyway. It is designed to be forced on under pressure. I don't believe that it should have been so much pressure. I doubt it should have raised a chip, cutting it's way on. I have some suspicions that the part was made with a bore that was undersize. I bought the worm from Snyder's (No reflection on them) and the part was made in Argentina.

I observed EXACTLY as you described. The interior of the worm is made as a shallow spline and is designed to be beyond an interference fit.

The trouble with filing the exterior of the shaft is now, in the region where the worm was applied, you've removed the concentricity. And this might be yet another reason for issues with getting that "touch" point at center sector travel. It will be threshold gall at the most proud point - but all other points will allow too much free motion.

About now I would throw in the towel and do as Purdy says. Just be sure to know the exact length of shaft you require. Vince Falter at Fordgarage has information from Ford prints about the EXACT lengths required. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/stee...twormchart.htm Reference the webpage when you talk to whomever about which shaft/worm assembly you need.

Also keep in mind that you CAN improve the sector/worm mating using bluing and repeated filing/refit. But this works best at reducing center free motion of a steering assembly that is already good. Otherwise you get into a blue/assembly/try/disassembly/grind/assembly/try/disassembly cycle repeated ad-nauseam. Self flagellation ain't for me.

Good luck with this. The trick in killing yourself over something is to NOT leave your wife so much money that her SECOND husband doesn't have to work for a living. So go do your part to support the Argentinian Economy.

Kidding, of course.

Joe K

[Big hammer]

Bake worm gear in a oven to 450 degrees chill shaft to a nice frosty
temperature worm gear should fall on like butter melting in frying
pan has worked other applications for me

[Terry,NJ]

Joe! The concentricity of the worm is controlled by the concentricity of the grind of the races to the worm section, not the bore. If the races are concentrically ground to the to the worm, it won't matter where the bore or the shaft is. The shaft could be running out as much as .050 (it's not) or more and the worm would still be running true between the upper and lower bearings.
Other commenters, Mitch, 30 coupe, and Big hammer have just convinced me that the part was made incorrectly. There's no way any of the methods would have worked. I exceeded every method mentioned. For instance, in place of an aluminum plate, I used a 4X4 and eventually drove the end of the shaft 2" into the wood. And I used more heat than 450 Deg. I am a former tool and die maker and the methods I used to get that part on would have appalled me if I saw someone else using them.
Had I known what I know now, I would have simply called Snyder's and arranged an exchange. One part of my confusion came from the fact that that I had never seen such an arrangement before and had no idea just how tight it should have been.
Terry

[Terry,NJ]

I was thinking about this over the weekend and I called Snyder's today (Tues) to give them a heads up about possible defective parts coming from Argentina. Don (I think) told me that this is more common than you'd realize. Some they even have to take a very light cut on a lathe. A direct quote, "That's just model A mechanics!" I feel a lot better about it now! It was the luck of the draw and I got the rotten one!
Terry

[Joe K]

If you're going to go the way of the replacement shaft/worm unit, perhaps you could talk to Snyder about getting your money back on the worm. I might not push for replacement of the shaft (i.e. damages) as Snyders had no way to know ahead of the extreme measures you took to do the placement -but I'm almost certain they will take back the bad worm for what you have in it.

Snyders ALWAYS seeks to have a satisfied customer. A business model which has allowed them their success.

And which will go a long way to relieve the umbrage of having to buy a new shaft/worm unit.

Reference Vince Falter's diagram if you do.

Joe K

[Terry,NJ]

Joe, When I called Snyder's today, I have to say, when I off the phone, I was quite disappointed in the attitude they displayed. They weren't giving me any satisfaction! Just some advice for the future; maybe you better get a lathe if you do any more, so you can turn you shaft down if it needs it. I'll think about going there for parts again. I don't want to go to the mattresses over this. But I never expected this from Snyder's, Mac's Yeah! I'm going to finish installing the box as it is and see how it works out.
Wish me luck! Terry

[Joe K]

Wow. Count me surprised.

Joe K

[Mitch//pa]

the press method i showed would put the worm right on the shaft.. i have purchased the same parts from snyders. try it next time

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Joe K

Wow. Count me surprised.

Joe K

Hey Joe,
Just for laughs, you're parts seller and I'm buyer !
BUYER: Well, Joe I used a backhoe/a forklift/a BFsgedgehammer, and a bowtorch on your/my part...and it wouldn't budge !
SELLER: Hmmmmm, well, er, ahhh, ummm..go buy a machinist lathe for next time, as some of these parts are KNOWN to be bad and shaft (mangled shaft) has to be turned down !

Heck, If hearing this first hand, wouldn't know whether to believe it, laugh or scream
Question: So, who puts these onto gear/shafts combo that you can buy...Argentina ?
Sure do smile at that F100 box (power steering) now , when driving with it.

[Nasukau]

Mitch,
Just to be clear you had tap the hole for the bolt to fit? If so what size bolt do you use? I am getting ready to do my first steering box rebuild so I have not seen the internal parts before.

Denny

[Joe K]

Hey Joe,
Just for laughs, you're parts seller and I'm buyer !

Just curious - where are you planning on buying your next Model A parts?

If you say anything other than Snyders - he's lost the game. A $65.50 part (plus shipping) has cost him the next 20 years of customer.

And if indeed the manufacturer is at fault, don't you think Snyder'll get his pound of flesh out of them? It's not like the part costs him $65.50 either. And likely will cost him nothing if it's proven to be defective.

Dunno. I know the worms are hard to mount - and even harder to mount and keep concentric. And turning the shaft down is an exercise which has some hazard to success involved, ESPECIALLY should the inexperienced try to do it with a belt sander and overshoot - and result in an accident.

Were I the seller I would take it back and do my derndest to make sure you got something that will work - maybe take on your shaft, check it now for straightness and have my machinist true it up if necessary and make it work.

If a seller works WITH his customer to figure out a problem, there is a much larger chance that customer will be back.

You don't just send him away with a 'ya shudda done you stupid dolt.'

Maybe Snyder has lost TWO customers. Possibly more?

Business acumen sees the BIG picture.

Joe K

[SteveB31]

We install the worms in less then a minute. Freeze the shaft. Heat the worm in a pan on a stove. Quickly press it on the shaft. Done. We install them every week that way.

[SteveB31]

Send us the worm and the shaft and we will install it for you.
Steve Becker
Berts Model A Center

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Nasukau

Mitch,
Just to be clear you had tap the hole for the bolt to fit? If so what size bolt do you use? I am getting ready to do my first steering box rebuild so I have not seen the internal parts before.

Denny

Denny,
a 5/8 nc bolt is what you use, mine is a grade 8.
steve posted that they freeze the shaft and heat the worm thats alao good info and shows there is more than one way to skin a cat. i dont have a freezer big enough or oven here at the shop to try it...