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Old 05-28-2019, 06:29 AM   #1
bigd1101
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Default Proper way to re-torque?

OK.......I've read all the debate on re-torquing a head before pulling the head off as a (possible) remedy for a leaky head gasket, but of course I'm a tad confused as to the proper way to re-torque. Some suggest just re-torquing at 55 lbs without backing off the nuts 1/8th....while others say you should. My feeling and it's just a feeling as I've never done a re-torquing (I have the torque wrench) is that IF and nuts have loosened over time letting the leak occur, how will you know they are loose if you back the nut off first?


In setting the torque wrench, do I set it at zero and turn the handle to the "55" mark?


The second part of my confusion and I get the sequence part and have the diagram, but if I do decide to back off the nuts, do I do them all at once BEFORE going back over and re-torquing or do I back off a nut and then re-torque it then, move onto the next nut in the sequence and follow the same method? I really want to get this right as if this works and I avoid a head removal, well.......we all know that's the best case scenario. Thanks as always for your well appreciated help!


PS.....the two nuts on the radiator water goose-neck are very tight to the body and I doubt a socket will fit over those, only an open end wrench, so how do you torque those? There also seems to be a odd nut almost under the distributor so the same question?





Don

Last edited by bigd1101; 05-28-2019 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 05-28-2019, 07:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

I'm not smart enough to give you good answers to your questions, but I can share my experiences. Part # A6064T is the Snyders number for the tool that will allow you to torque down the bolt under the distributor. Try borrowing one from a club member. When I got my first Model A in 1950, my father made me take the motor apart and check tolerances and then reassemble with new gaskets. That way I would know what made everything work. We had no torque wrenches or for that matter I had no socket set. The head was tightened with an open/box wrench about 8 inches long and pulled as tight as I could. The car never had a gasket leak and as a kid I drove it like I had stolen it. As for the backing off of the nut a bit before torquing it down, there seems to be a huge difference of opinion something like which oil to use. The theory is that it takes a bit more torque to set the nut in motion, therefore back it off and get a head start to the correct torque. I believe this is done one at a time. It's kind of like pushing a car on a flat driveway. You need more energy to get it going, once it begins to roll it takes less energy to keep it going. I am no expert but these are some of my thoughts. Good luck, Jack
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Old 05-28-2019, 07:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

I forgot about the two nuts on the gooseneck. A socket will fit and you can torque it down but be careful, it tends to break the goose neck if some tricks are not used. The most common that I read about is to put a paper match under the outer part of each ear of the gooseneck and tighten a little on each side until you reach the torque thqt you want. I shoot for 55# on the head nuts and 45# on the two gooseneck nuts. The head I do in sequence excfept forn the goosenek and I do the head in three steps one at 35#, next at 45#, and then the final torque at 55#. Meanwhile the gooseneck nnuts are slowly tightened in 6 or moe steps, a little aqt a time
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Old 05-28-2019, 07:51 AM   #4
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

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Originally Posted by jhowes View Post
I'm not smart enough to give you good answers to your questions, but I can share my experiences. Part # A6064T is the Snyders number for the tool that will allow you to torque down the bolt under the distributor. Try borrowing one from a club member. When I got my first Model A in 1950, my father made me take the motor apart and check tolerances and then reassemble with new gaskets. That way I would know what made everything work. We had no torque wrenches or for that matter I had no socket set. The head was tightened with an open/box wrench about 8 inches long and pulled as tight as I could. The car never had a gasket leak and as a kid I drove it like I had stolen it. As for the backing off of the nut a bit before torquing it down, there seems to be a huge difference of opinion something like which oil to use. The theory is that it takes a bit more torque to set the nut in motion, therefore back it off and get a head start to the correct torque. I believe this is done one at a time. It's kind of like pushing a car on a flat driveway. You need more energy to get it going, once it begins to roll it takes less energy to keep it going. I am no expert but these are some of my thoughts. Good luck, Jack

Thanks Jack, ordered the tool. Guess the two nuts on the goose-neck don't matter I'm gathering. What about the sequence question? Do you know if I loosen them all first then re-torque or one at a time?
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:17 AM   #5
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

Follow ford torquing sequence.Always store your torque wrench backed off to zero if its a 'click' type.No need to back off an 1/8th turn,just pull till you reach 55 pounds,you are taking the stretch out of the stud,not resetting it.Do the gooseneck studs,the neck is seated,you wont break an ear.
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

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I forgot about the two nuts on the gooseneck. A socket will fit and you can torque it down but be careful, it tends to break the goose neck if some tricks are not used. The most common that I read about is to put a paper match under the outer part of each ear of the gooseneck and tighten a little on each side until you reach the torque thqt you want. I shoot for 55# on the head nuts and 45# on the two gooseneck nuts. The head I do in sequence excfept forn the goosenek and I do the head in three steps one at 35#, next at 45#, and then the final torque at 55#. Meanwhile the gooseneck nnuts are slowly tightened in 6 or moe steps, a little aqt a time


Have not tried, but have read on the goose neck - remove it, insure it is flat by filing it flat, or using sand paper on a piece of glass. Insure the head side is flat. Use a paper gasket, or some just put skim coat of sealer with no gasket.
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:57 AM   #7
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

So I'm leaning toward just torquing at 55 pounds in sequence (no backing off) cold engine, to seal the leak. Not sure if I need to do the graduating 35,45 and then 55, or do I? Seem the more answers I get, the more confusing and convoluted it gets...LOL!





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Old 05-28-2019, 09:01 AM   #8
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

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OK.......I've read all the debate on re-torquing a head before pulling the head off as a (possible) remedy for a leaky head gasket, but of course I'm a tad confused as to the proper way to re-torque. Some suggest just re-torquing at 55 lbs without backing off the nuts 1/8th....while others say you should. My feeling and it's just a feeling as I've never done a re-torquing (I have the torque wrench) is that IF and nuts have loosened over time letting the leak occur, how will you know they are loose if you back the nut off first?


In setting the torque wrench, do I set it at zero and turn the handle to the "55" mark?


The second part of my confusion and I get the sequence part and have the diagram, but if I do decide to back off the nuts, do I do them all at once BEFORE going back over and re-torquing or do I back off a nut and then re-torque it then, move onto the next nut in the sequence and follow the same method? I really want to get this right as if this works and I avoid a head removal, well.......we all know that's the best case scenario. Thanks as always for your well appreciated help!


PS.....the two nuts on the radiator water goose-neck are very tight to the body and I doubt a socket will fit over those, only an open end wrench, so how do you torque those? There also seems to be a odd nut almost under the distributor so the same question?





Don

If you do not have the "crowfoot wrench", take the distributor out. As long as the motor does not move - no need to retime the points.


My method - torque in sequence with motor warm, I do not back off, can not remember why, I re-torque at 45, then 50, then 55. If using a standard compression head if still leaking at 55 will additionally try 60, but no higher. Torque values are sometimes higher for higher compression heads.
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Old 05-28-2019, 09:05 AM   #9
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

It won't matter to loosen one at a time and re-torque - but do it in the order of torquing indicated by many sources. Here's some discussion of someone who has given it much study. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/tighteningsequence.htm

Generally torquing is kind of the "proof of the pudding" for fasteners. If a fastener survives torquing, it will survive any normal stress put to it in service.

I would use the Permatex "spray gasket" on that water pump outlet pipe joint. Unless you're going for fine point - in which case you want to even forget the match-stick trick. The joint is between two machined surfaces, is relatively small between the bolts, is relatively fragile compared to most torqued head bolt locations, and a thin layer of spray gasket or even polyurethane spray will probably take care of any sealing required.

One opinion - put your money in the cup as you exit.

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Old 05-28-2019, 09:06 AM   #10
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

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Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU View Post
If you do not have the "crowfoot wrench", take the distributor out. As long as the motor does not move - no need to retime the points.


My method - torque in sequence with motor warm, I do not back off, can not remember why, I re-torque at 45, then 50, then 55. If using a standard compression head if still leaking at 55 will additionally try 60, but no higher. Torque values are sometimes higher for higher compression heads.



I bought the tool that "goes around" the distributor. Why the gradual increments on re-torquing? Why not just a go at 55 pounds? The goose neck bolts might be a hard torque situation by what I'm getting here......maybe just a good old fashioned open end wench attempt on those two??

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Old 05-28-2019, 09:07 AM   #11
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

From observing my dad, a mechanic from the era of all cast iron engines, he would start with a cold engine, loosen and then retighten in ft/lb steps to get to the proper ft/lbs. That meant he would do the pattern recommended by the engine manufacturer, but do it in steps of ft/lbs to get to the right ft/lbs for each stud. Just to add to the confusion! And on a model A Ford, A healthy crows foot is handy for the distributor blocked head bolt nut.
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Old 05-28-2019, 09:18 AM   #12
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

Torquing places a fastener in tension,it basically stretches the bolt like a rubberband,its why no locking device is used,the fastener is locked by tension.
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Old 05-28-2019, 09:21 AM   #13
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

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From observing my dad, a mechanic from the era of all cast iron engines, he would start with a cold engine, loosen and then retighten in ft/lb steps to get to the proper ft/lbs. That meant he would do the pattern recommended by the engine manufacturer, but do it in steps of ft/lbs to get to the right ft/lbs for each stud. Just to add to the confusion! And on a model A Ford, A healthy crows foot is handy for the distributor blocked head bolt nut.

So.....a gradual progression of 35,45,55 maybe? Is it 35 for all nuts/bolts, then 45 for all, then 55 for all or is it 35,45,55 on one at a time? This is getting complicated indeed....
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Old 05-28-2019, 09:50 AM   #14
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All very good comments. I would add a couple of more. If a new gasket is being installed and therefore all the nuts have been removed, forget that ignition switch cable clamp under one of the nuts. Why be put in the position of having to mess with the cylinder head nuts if you just want to lift out the distributor for trouble shooting purposes? Also, after bringing up the torque to 55 ft-lbs., start the car and run for about 5 minutes. Then, re-torque to 55 ft.-lbs. Then run the car for 10 minutes and re-torque to 55 ft.-lbs. Run the car for 15 minutes and re-torque to 55 ft.-lbs. Now you are ready for a short drive and then recheck. You don't want to loose a head gasket during the initial startup. You will be amazed at how loose the nuts become on those initial startups. Good luck, Ed
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:24 AM   #15
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

Visit Vince Falter's WEB site (fordharage.com)and go to ENGINE section. Open "Head Nut Torquing Instructions" written by Larry Brumfield. If anyone knows about heads and head gaskets he does.
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Old 05-28-2019, 11:10 AM   #16
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So.....a gradual progression of 35,45,55 maybe? Is it 35 for all nuts/bolts, then 45 for all, then 55 for all or is it 35,45,55 on one at a time? This is getting complicated indeed....
Never knew the torque increases but, all nuts get 35 then 45 and then fully tighten. And this method certainly cannot hurt anything and keeps the head and block mating equally to the gasket. And, get a crows foot for the nut by the distributor. (and keep it where you can find it!) Let us know how it works out!

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Old 05-28-2019, 12:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

PS.....the two nuts on the radiator water goose-neck are very tight to the body and I doubt a socket will fit over those, only an open end wrench, so how do you torque those? There also seems to be a odd nut almost under the distributor so the same question?

The above nuts are close to the body??? Is the engine installed backwards? The rad outlet is usually at the front and very easy to reach.

The idea of backing off is to release the nut from tension, aka friction. Loosen one nut at a time, then torque right away. Sequence tightening is done on a fresh gasket, yours is not.
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Old 05-28-2019, 01:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

bigd1101 After reading all the above, are you "Totally Confused Now"
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Old 05-28-2019, 01:07 PM   #19
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Default Re: Proper way to re-torque?

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PS.....the two nuts on the radiator water goose-neck are very tight to the body and I doubt a socket will fit over those, only an open end wrench, so how do you torque those? There also seems to be a odd nut almost under the distributor so the same question?

The above nuts are close to the body??? Is the engine installed backwards? The rad outlet is usually at the front and very easy to reach.

The idea of backing off is to release the nut from tension, aka friction. Loosen one nut at a time, then torque right away. Sequence tightening is done on a fresh gasket, yours is not.

The "body" of the goose-neck....not the block. The one under the distributor will require a special tool that I ordered thanks to a member on this thread. Not sure why I'd want to just randomly re-torque the head? I'll stick to the recommended sequence just to be sure. I'm basically just trying to stop a small leak where exhaust gases are showing up in the radiator fluid and avoid a head removal. Process of elimination as they say.





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Old 05-28-2019, 01:12 PM   #20
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bigd1101 After reading all the above, are you "Totally Confused Now"


LOL! Lets see.....cold engine or warm engine, back off the nuts or do not back off the nuts, go by sequence, don't go by sequence, no real straight answer on the goose-neck nuts, apply 55 pounds or go from 35,45,55 and even 60.



Maybe all of the above?



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