Newbie 31 Slant window

[31 A4door]

Hey out there, I just bought a barn find 31 . Untouched since 59' Stored inside and moved twice since 59. Bringing it home this weekend. I have a 26 coupe I have restored and just need to finish the interior on it but drive it nearly every week.
As for this A tell me what to look for. I do want to change over to 12 Volts right off. I will,, change out oils, points, and coil to try to start it on 12 volts.

Question is what do I need to do as far as positive ground to negative ground?

Won't the starter go the wrong direction ?

[msmaron]

Keep it 6 volts..why are you considering the 12 vlt

[todd3131]

I've never understood the need to change to 12 volts every Model A I have ever had and every other car have all been 6 volts and I never have had a problem, The only reason that I can see is they seem to think a modern alternator seems to be more reliable. Every time I have asked an owner why is is always the same response " I was told by a guy if I'm going to tour I had better change it over" but none of them know why.

That is my take

[msmaron]

Horse feathers. that is us bull. I have a 6 volt system 31SW Dlx Fordor..run: turn signals, 60w halogen headlights, 55 wt halogen fog lights, dual cig lighters, dual LED Tail Lights, cowl lights, 3rd brake light....Touring engine and drive approx 8500 miles a year and all 6 volt on a alternator...get my point. NOT NEEDED!

[John Butts in CT]

Originally Posted by msmaron

Keep it 6 volts..why are you considering the 12 vlt

Ditto

[31 A4door]

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I change over because I have a 12 battery charger. It needs a battery and those are expensive and I have lots of 12 volt battery's around. Plus I like the faster starter speed.... Now Now,,,, I know you shouldn't make it spin real hard or fast so I put a shunt in there. I also like brighter 12 volt bulbs. and I already have an alternator lying under my bench.

I have changed my T over to 12 and love it. Though some of the T guys think I am wrong,,, It IS my car....

I have a 6 volt battery I can borrow to try to start this thing but no 6 volt charger. I could jump it with the 12 though if I had to.

Question is what about the ground system and starter direction ??

[todd3131]

Originally Posted by 31 A4door

I change over because I have a 12 battery charger. It needs a battery and those are expensive and I have lots of 12 volt battery's around. Plus I like the faster starter speed.... Now Now,,,, I know you shouldn't make it spin real hard or fast so I put a shunt in there. I also like brighter 12 volt bulbs. and I already have an alternator lying under my bench.

I have changed my T over to 12 and love it. Though some of the T guys think I am wrong,,, It IS my car....

I have a 6 volt battery I can borrow to try to start this thing but no 6 volt charger. I could jump it with the 12 though if I had to.

Question is what about the ground system and starter direction ??

I bought a brand new battery charger last year that is both 6 and 12 volts for 40.00 much cheaper and a whole lot less work.

[todd3131]

Originally Posted by todd3131

I bought a brand new battery charger last year that is both 6 and 12 volts for 40.00 much cheaper and a whole lot less work.

Oh I forgot to mention that even after setting all winter with the cable attached for the last five years I have never had to use it! But I keep it around for late model customer vehicles that run down in a few hours.

[msmaron]

model a 6 volt is positive ground.. I dont think that a 6 volt battery at farm and fleet for 30.00 is out of line..were trying to give you the best advise here...

[msmaron]

PS and it WONT start quicker at all! BUT like you said....It's your car first and foremost...Good luck

[1931 flamingo]

Starter will function on 12V and spin the right way. I believe you're going to have to change bulbs and coil.
Keep us updated, and WELCOME
Paul in CT
There is a search function at top of page, good info. Type in 12V.

[todd3131]

Originally Posted by msmaron

model a 6 volt is positive ground.. I dont think that a 6 volt battery at farm and fleet for 30.00 is out of line..were trying to give you the best advise here...

I can see why you put the alternator on a T but you are comparing apples and oranges the A is a much more advanced car than the T and that is why they quit making the T. The charging system in a t is well...almost non exhistant and the reflectors and light bulbs are much better on the A I can look into a T lamp and see the filament fine and stand the light on a A you have to use welding goggles to see it.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by todd3131

I can see why you put the alternator on a T but you are comparing apples and oranges the A is a much more advanced car than the T and that is why they quit making the T.

OK whatever...like i said. Your car...good luck

[31 A4door]

Cheapest charger I could find here is $60 plus I need to buy a battery as well and just called they are 75. I guess I will start it on 6 for ignition and choked down 12 for the starter. Called about the starter. Talked to 2 guys and they both tell me the starter will go the right direction because of the way the brushes are in there. The starter rebuild guy just told me that is wrong. Who has done this and which is correct ?

[31 A4door]

First off, msmaron ,,, I like the look of your car and I am going to steal your color scheme.
I thank you guys for the info. This is my first A so bear with me. Decided to do this for start up. 6 volt for ignition and maybe 12 to bump the starter faster. After that we will see what I do I guess. From what I read the A still has a 3 brush system like the T and it looks like you set the 3rd brush for 12 amps at 1250 RPM. Is this correct ? If so it's like a T and I don't like it.. If not and the Gen actually regulates the charge I might keep it stock.

Also never had an A engine apart but I know it has an oil pump. Are the main and rods pressure or is the pump just for spraying oil around and up top ?

[CarlG]

6-volt starter will work in either 6-volt positive ground or 12-volt negative ground and will turn the correct direction with either one. Just faster on 12-volt.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by 31 A4door

First off, msmaron ,,, I like the look of your car and I am going to steal your color scheme.

hahahaha Good Choice!!! its not my scheme, its Henry's for the 31 SW Dlx Fordor

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Starters are "ignorant" they don't know POSITIVE - from NEGATIVE +! ME, EITHER! Bill W.

[John Butts in CT]

Originally Posted by msmaron

hahahaha Good Choice!!! its not my scheme, its Henry's for the 31 SW Dlx Fordor

I'll join Mark on this. At least begin with the stock 6V POS Ground system. It's worked well for a lot of years. Best of luck.

[31 A4door]

Wait,,,6 volt neg. I thought all A's were pos. ground. Under stand I have only looked at this car once so not sure of what it is if they changed it... I do know it is a 31 slant window Std.

[Kevin in NJ]

You probably do not need to change the points. Give them a quick cleaning and make sure the cam is smooth and lubricated. You can probably get another 40 years off those points.

Changing to 12v is likely to be more trouble then you expect. But it is your car.

Remember, the original stuff properly restored will likely outlast you.

[31 A4door]

Thanks, Kevin.

[1931 flamingo]

Orig is 6V pos ground. Try tractor supply for a battery, Grp 1. Make sure you have a good ground. I would also add the fuse that mounts on the starter available from any of the vendors. Model A is non pressurized.
Vendors: Snyder's, Bratton's, Tams, Bert's. Most have on line catalog. Get les Andrew's book Vol 1, avail any of the vendors and probably amazon, also a re-print of the service bulletins.
Where in Washington?? There might be a Barner in your backyard.
Paul in CT

[MikeK]

Changing to 12V is easy. No need to replace the ignition coil. Reverse the polarity of the primary leads going to it and add an external ballast resistor, about $10. An external resistor is superior to a dedicated 12V coil because the external resistors are positive temperature coefficient devices. Resistance is low when cold, giving you a hotter spark. In several minutes running it heats and the current drops, extending the life of the points. A 12V coil does not do this.

As Carl G and Bill mentioned, the starter is not sensitive to polarity. Since electric motor power is amperage squared times resistance, the starter will have FOUR times as much power. It is possible to rewire the starter fields from parallel to series, cutting the starter to 'only' twice the power on 12V. I've done this on several starters. Others report no problems with the starter as is.

Change all the light bulbs, of course.

The only 6V batteries available are the $125+ Optima which needs a special holder, and the non-maintenance free wet cell group 1, about $45. You may have a bit of a problem switching from positive to negative ground because the battery terminal diameters are different for positive and negative. Either install new terminals or best, new leads.

The model A engine relied on the engine side pans as the primary frame ground path. Current is also known to flow through the drivetrain and the steel fuel line . I strongly suggest, whilst you are changing out the battery, you remove the battery ground strap, clean the frame to bare metal, and add a short 4ga jumper from the same bolt point to a tranny cover bolt.

If you run an alternator with an internal electronic regulator it must be bolted tight to the engine, any looseness or movement at the alternator ground contact will drive the regulator nuts or blow it.

Throw away nothing, someday you may get the 6V+ originality fever like some here have already shown! I have two A's. One 6V+ and one 12V-. Each has its pluses and minuses (pun intended).

[christian]

For what its worth, when towed home my new to me 31' slant windshield fordor I planned on a tough first start. The car, like yours had been sitting since the mid 1950's. I cleaned out the carb, cleaned the original points with the back of a match book, and threw in a 6v battery I got from NAPA for about 80 dollars. Charged up the battery with a cheapo 6v/12v charger from an auto big box retailer and decided it was worth it to try to start it up. Used orignial 60 year old plugs, 60 year old coil etc....

Originally I planned on using a 12v battery to help with initial start up but on a whim decided to try first without. Let me tell you Im glad I didnt, Fuel on, ignition on, foot on starter and after 3 or 4 revolution bingo it started up.

Try it the way it is before you switch it over, you may like it.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Why do you want the engine to spin faster?
I can pull up slowly on the hand crank and the engine fires right up.
You don't need speed tp start the engine and a 6 volt battery spins the engine plenty fast. If it doesn't fire up within a couple seconds, then something else needs to be fixed.

I'm going on 9 or 10 years on a $3 junk yard 6 volt battery and it still works great. Myself and a couple other guys make electronic voltage regulators so the original generator can be regulated just like a modern generator or alternator. I never bought a new battery charger, but have several nice used ones from swap meets and I never paid more than $8 for one, and they are 6 and 12 volt. My favorite is my Sears 6 amp 6/12 volt with a meter, that was new (or looked new) in the box for $8.

My 28 Model A is original and stock except for the EVR inside the generator and a small fuel filter inside the fuel valve, and this car is very dependable and enjoyable. Best to buy a few good Model A books, join a club if one is near you, and hang out with a few Model A guys to help learn about the car. It doesn't take long to find out what a good reliable car they are, and there is no need for a bunch of "modern improvements".

Many people think the lights and brakes are no good, but that's only because they don't have good silvered reflectors with focused bulbs, and properly adjusted and maintained brakes.

[Charlie Stephens]

If you go 12 volts go negative ground to match all of the modern electronics you might want to use. Starter will turn correct direction with either ground. You statement about the starter spinning faster is correct. This extra push is why it might tend to break Bendix gears, be sure to replace with the new style. Just my opinion, but alternators look terrible on old cars. Be sure to check out the "Brite Bulbs" from Ron Francis wire works (800) 292-1940, wire-works.com (12 volt only).

Charlie Stephens

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

It's GREAT fun to hook your ammeter bassakwards, just to drive folks GOOFY!! Yes, I'm INSECURE, isn't everyone???
Bill W.

[Mike V. Florida]

Do whatever you want it's your car but you don't HAVE to do anything. Restored headlamps with stock bulbs are bright. There are 6v halogen bulbs if you want them.
There is no reason for the starter to spin faster unless you want to race her and you need that extra 1/2 sec to get off the starter block.

Add up the costs of all the parts you need to change over and the money out of your pocket for the 6v battery goes down.

But if you insist;


Battery

Any good 12 Volt battery will do as long as it will fit your battery box and hold down. Most seem to selected a 72 month, 675 cranking amp, universal battery.

Generator

A GM 63 Amp Alternator with an internal self exciting voltage regulator. The hook up is one wire, the same as the existing generator. You will need to make two small brackets to mount the alternator or you can use two shackle bars and drill out for the proper size bolts. An alternator pulley can be purchased from your friendly Model A parts supplier.

Starter

No modifications are necessary to the starter.

Ammeter

Changed the standard 20 amp ammeter to a 30 amp ammeter as an alternator will peg the standard meter. You must reverse the leads on the ammeter due to the change in polarity of the battery. Your neighborhood Model A parts supplier carries the 30 amp ammeter.

Headlights

You may want to convert to Halogen bulbs. The conversion is relatively easy. You can purchase a kit to modify your existing reflectors or you can purchase new reflectors with the Halogen sockets installed. You must install an alternator to successfully operate Halogen bulbs.

Ignition

You could install a 12 volt coil and a resistor to reduce the voltage to the points.
Or install an electronic ignition system. This is an extremely easy system to install as it fits entirely inside the distributor; no outside boxes are required. Kits are available for the standard Model A or B, early V8, and Mallory distributors. Both 6 and 12 kits are available.
Kits are furnished with a new coil as the correct coil resistance is very important for proper operation. Kits are distributed by: Remund Ignitions, Inc.
P.O. Box 857
Lemon Grove, CA 91946-0857
(619)460-3620

Horn

Getting the horn to work properly was the most perplexing part of the conversion. You can purchase a 0 to 2 Ohm variable power resistor with a 100 watt rating from an electronics supply house or the Model A vendors have part you can use.
An alternate approach would be to rewire the horn.

Light Bulbs

The following bulbs can be used with a 12 volt system: Cowl, Tail, and Dash Lights - #89, 6 cp
Dome Light - #67/97, 4 cp
Stop Lights - #1156/10, 32 cp

Turn Signals

If you have a Signal-Stat turn signal it will be necessary to change the flasher to a Signal-Stat #180 and the bulb to a #1445.

[oliverguy]

Your call, your time and your money. I've never seen a conversion that didn't have some type of problem later. I've reversed plenty on tractors and now they work as designed. Also on tours if you have some funky conversion, likely nobody will have parts to help you out if you break down.

I have a new 6/12 combo charger from sears. It's a cheapie but it was only $12 with mail in rebate. I also have a old allstate charger I bought for $2 at an auction. You can probably find one on craigslist.

[Dick Carne]

As pointed out, the coil and light bulbs will need to be changed when going from 6 to 12 volt. Although the starter will continue to function normally, I would suggest that in that event you consider one of the new bendix drives (the additional thrust from the 12 volt system may be harder on the original bendix set-up), and I would also encourage changing to an alternator. While the original generator may work well for a short time, I don't think that it will last over a protracted time period with the voltage changeover. Good luck with whatever direction you decide.

Dick

[31 A4door]

Ok I went for my first ride in an " A" today. WOW ! what a difference compared to my T.
Supposed to pick up the A on Saturday and today I was bugging all kinds of people about parts, info, a battery to use to try to start it this weekend without changing to 12 volts etc. Really getting excited about getting it home to work on it.

Thank all of you guys for the info thus far. Really looking forward to this car. Will put a picture or 3 up once I get it and start working on it. Wish me luck!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by 31 A4door

Ok I went for my first ride in an " A" today. WOW ! what a difference compared to my T.
Supposed to pick up the A on Saturday and today I was bugging all kinds of people about parts, info, a battery to use to try to start it this weekend without changing to 12 volts etc. Really getting excited about getting it home to work on it.

Thank all of you guys for the info thus far. Really looking forward to this car. Will put a picture or 3 up once I get it and start working on it. Wish me luck!

This is the part that scares me. When I read this it sounds like it's going to be taken apart and changed into a rod. If not, that's good, but still don't be in a hurry to take things apart, especially if it's drivable. Drive it and enjoy it while you maintain it. Restore the carb and put it back on and keep driving. Restore the generator and put it back on and drive some more. Do the same with the starter, leaking water pump, brakes, etc.

This is especially important for a guy's first Model A. Get to know the car really well first, then fix as required. There's too many taken apart cars setting in garages and barns.

[31 A4door]

Last post wanted to know about rodding it. That would be a NO ! Not me not this car.

As for an update. I brought the car home today and started in on it right away.
Dropped the oils out of it and changed engine out with 5-30 WT That's just what I had. I will change it out again soon. new 90-140 Wt in the rear. Gears looked great !
Pulled the distributor and went thru it. clean, lube file points and re install.
Pulled carb, cleaned out jets and bowl reassembled and re installed. New Gskts from my T project.
Pulled starter, cleaned lubed and re installed.. Drive was hanging up.
Pulled key switch and fiddled with it till I got contact.
Pulled plugs, poured in a lot of 2 stroke oil in each cylinder.
Make shift fuel line from broken rubber hose that is at the carb. More T stuff.
poured in some gas and crank for a while till it finaly it took off and smoked like crazy from all the 2 stroke oil. No Mosquito's found nearby now. Heh Heh.
Removed plugs a couple times and it takes right off after carb adjustments made.
Changed out flat tire and took it down the street and back. Dead mice falling out during the drive. To my surprise the generator was charging about 15 AMPS and the 6 volt starter is good enough for me.

THIS Means I will stay with 6 volts as I will just buy a battery.

I have lots of work to do but am very happy it runs well after sitting for 54 years. Looking for 4 good tires now so if you are close to me and have some you want to sell or trade let me know. Thanks guys for the info so far.

Jerry

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by 31 A4door

I have lots of work to do but am very happy it runs well after sitting for 54 years. Looking for 4 good tires now so if you are close to me and have some you want to sell or trade let me know. Thanks guys for the info so far.

Jerry

Jerry I applaud you! You gave it try without changing a bunch of stuff first! May you have many years of joy with the car.

[1931 flamingo]

Good for you ! ! Any pictures??
Paul in CT

[Phil]

31 a4door my hat is off to you! Another A being preserved. Good job!

[Steve Wastler]

With all the energy spent on wanting to change things, you should have first done a search on first start after 50 plus years of storage. You should have dropped the oil pan and removed the sludge from the bottom of the pan and around the shielded oil pump. Do yourself a favor, try to save your engine.