The Ford Barn

38 Conv · 03-08-2016, 06:54 AM

Found a original 1949-53 Mercury flat head engine that is green, LOCAL seller and was a running engine up to 4 months ago, it was in his truck for 28 years and it had no machine work done on it----- he clams it is a standard bore-- it is complete as pictures, turns over good-- I can have it for $500.00----- Thanks

51 MERC-CT · 03-08-2016, 08:18 AM

If it's there you can determine the year the engine was manufactured but not necessarily the year of the car it was in. Date code on passenger side rear of intake mounting surface.

Bored&Stroked · 03-08-2016, 08:34 AM

Pricing is really tough in that who really knows what shape it is in (internally), whether or not the block is good, etc.. It 'should' have a 4" stroke crankshaft - but who knows on that (all sorts of components were swapped around). I wouldn't pay more than about $500 for it (with a guarantee that the block is good) - as I've taken too many apart, only to have to scrap a block. Also, I would want to pull the head, be able to clean around the valve areas (looking for cracks), checking the bore and valves, etc..

You may find others that will pay more - but unless you truly know the condition of the internals (including crankshaft and bearings), somebody is taking a gamble on it.

Ol' Ron · 03-08-2016, 09:17 AM

B&S is right, if it is what it is, and in good usu able condition. Probably a thousand bucks or more. However you'd have to dissamble the block have it cleaned magged ot pressure tested. Have the crank checked for stroke and bearing condition. All the rest of the suff is not as important but still has value. Ford never put these in trucks. A good usable block is worth 6-700 bucks crank 3-400. Get pete to grind a 1007B on it bor it out to 3 5/16, slap it back to gether and it worth 4 grand and it don't have to be balanced. If the crank and rods are original. JMHO

tubman · 03-08-2016, 12:04 PM

Ol' Ron, I am just finishing up a 258 incher with the original crank and rods. Is the $150 I spent on balancing it wasted? I would have thought that the 1/8" larger pistons would weigh enough more to make balancing necessary. Does your statement about not balancing it imply to bringing the new piston assemblies to the same weight as the original ones?

19Fordy · 03-08-2016, 12:21 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Be sure and let us know if you buy it and what you found.
Anyway to get it running prior to purchasing? $500-600 is a fair price for a running engine.

JSeery · 03-08-2016, 12:40 PM

A running engine is nice but doesn't really provide much insurance against cracks and other internal issues. It is still a gamble short of having the block inspected and tested. It will also not tell you what parts are inside (crank) or what oversize/undersizes you are dealing with or previous repairs (sleeves, etc).

flatjack9 · 03-08-2016, 12:50 PM

I have taken more than one running engine apart and ended up junking it.

rotorwrench · 03-08-2016, 01:53 PM

FoMoCo used green for some of the later truck or pickup engines. 60 plus years can be a long time for an engine to remain original. I've found Mercury cars that had a Ford 3 3/4" stroke crank in them. Unless you know the history from day one, there is no guarantee.

A good 4 inch crank core is worth a fair amount but still may need some machine work to make it good. The block is a basic 8BA and would need all the checks to give it an accurate value. Unless you get a guarantee, it's a crap shoot.

Ol' Ron · 03-08-2016, 03:50 PM

The theory, behind balancing is rather complicated. I once asked an engine builder of NASCAR and Indy car engines, if he had to change a set of pistons in a finished engine and the pistons were heaver or lighter than the ones in it would he re-balance the engine. His answer was No. Balancing the rotating weight is the most important and some builders use different formulas for adding the reciprocating weight. During the early years of racing we never balanced anything and in 8 years at the track very few engine were lost for on reason or another. I know of no engine rebuilders that balance then, However there hare more balancing shops around now and irt's a good money maker
I keep the crank and rods as a set. I also keep all the rods as a set from every engine I take apart. If i have to mix ma6ch a set i have the engine street balanced. Just make up the bob weights from one cylinder and balance the crank. Having done this several times I find that very little is ever taken off. I think Balancing is a feel good thing. But Old Henry would probably disagree with me.

El Rat · 03-08-2016, 07:53 PM

Well...@ 5,000 you are kinda correct. @ 10,000 not so much. it's really not a big deal to match weight the pistons and rod big ends. You can do it at home and not spend anything but time (flatties) not racing mouses or blown hem's.
As an aside I machined the crap out of a dog bowl flywheel took it down flat and then tapered from the bolt circle to the OD. I took it to my local machine shop (I've dealt with them for 50 years) and the clutch combo required no "anything" absolutely perfect!

tubman · 03-08-2016, 08:00 PM

Oh well, $150 ain't much in the grand scheme of things. However, I can't see how a balance job can be a moneymaker at that price. I guess I'm still glad I did it, even if it is only a "feel-good" thing.

JSeery · 03-08-2016, 08:05 PM

I have always balanced everything I have ever built! Not that I'm disagreeing with Ron, it is just not that expensive in the overall build cost and I'm not interested in having to take anything apart for an issue later on. I've had assemblies that are fine the way they were (thus the balance cost was somewhat a waste of money, but did serve as a check) and I have assemblies that were a mess and required a lot of effort to get corrected. Just never know, but seems like cheap insurance to me.

RalphM · 03-08-2016, 08:19 PM

I've done just the opposite, never had snyyhing balanced in 40 years of rebuilds, and never had an issue, but these are every day use motors and not hi PO race engines. I'm sure they would have lasted longer with a balance job, but lasted long enough for me without it.

Straightpipes · 03-08-2016, 08:33 PM

My 52 pickup engine was green. Beware Merc heads on a Ford crank.

CSArno · 03-08-2016, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Straightpipes

My 52 pickup engine was green. Beware Merc heads on a Ford crank.

Why? Arent the Merc heads domed out more so would just be less compression on a Ford crank?? Or is that what you meant by beware?

V8COOPMAN · 03-08-2016, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSArno

Why? Arent the Merc heads domed out more so would just be less compression on a Ford crank?? Or is that what you meant by beware?

It means: Beware you aren't buying an engine purported to be a MERCURY....with it's valuable, highly-sought-after 4"stroke crankshaft.....JUST because it has Mercury heads on it. Wouldn't be the first time someone put Mercury heads on a Ford engine.....which has a dorky ol' Ford 3-3/4" crankshaft. DD

39topless · 03-08-2016, 09:50 PM

If the seller of this engine really had this engine, in his truck, for 28 years and, he says, "its never had any machine work done on it", then ... 1. just believe him and buy the thing or, 2. ask him, "if this engine has never had any machine work done on it, how do you know that it's standard bore?"

Bored&Stroked · 03-09-2016, 09:18 AM

The way I look at it - is if you can afford to gamble the $500 and not be disappointed that the engine may have issues, then do it. Everybody who builds these things has bought engines that "were running good when pulled out" - and most of us have found reasons as to WHY they were pulled out (cause they needed to be!). If it was me, I'd ask to pull the heads and inspect the bore and valve area. Also, you can use a standard ruler at that point to check the stroke - if it is 4", then you have a Merc crank and the "gamble" is looking better for you.

I take an electric drill with a wire brush on the end and some lacquer thinner or acetone and I brush/clean up all the areas around the valves - into the bore and around the bores. Frequently you can see obvious cracks. Now cracks can be anyplace - so being able to pull the pan and look at the pan rails for cracks is great as well. Any while you have the pan off - pull a few bearing caps and generally checkout the main/rod journals and bearings.

If he'll let you do these things - then you really increase your odds that this is a good motor and you'll know if it has a Merc crank. If he won't let you do it - then ask for a guarantee of some sort. Sometimes I've asked for full-refunds, other times 1/2, etc.

Seems like it is worth chasing down to me . . .

Bored&Stroked · 03-09-2016, 09:21 AM

Another thing - in looking at your pictures, I'd say no way this thing was running and being used 4 months ago. There is just too much rust on the pulleys, clutch and bell-housing bolts for that to seem true. It appears to me that it was pulled a long time ago (which is typical). Unless this guy is a personal friend and/or is willing to guarantee the thing - just be prepared for issues . . . or check it out as best you can.

03-08-2016, 08:18 AM	#2
51 MERC-CT Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Hartford, Ct Posts: 5,898	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year If it's there you can determine the year the engine was manufactured but not necessarily the year of the car it was in. Date code on passenger side rear of intake mounting surface. __________________ DON'T RECALL DOING SOMETHING FOR MYSELF BASED ON SOMEONE ELSE'S LIKES OR DISLIKES

03-08-2016, 08:34 AM	#3
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,067	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year Pricing is really tough in that who really knows what shape it is in (internally), whether or not the block is good, etc.. It 'should' have a 4" stroke crankshaft - but who knows on that (all sorts of components were swapped around). I wouldn't pay more than about $500 for it (with a guarantee that the block is good) - as I've taken too many apart, only to have to scrap a block. Also, I would want to pull the head, be able to clean around the valve areas (looking for cracks), checking the bore and valves, etc.. You may find others that will pay more - but unless you truly know the condition of the internals (including crankshaft and bearings), somebody is taking a gamble on it.

03-08-2016, 09:17 AM	#4
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year B&S is right, if it is what it is, and in good usu able condition. Probably a thousand bucks or more. However you'd have to dissamble the block have it cleaned magged ot pressure tested. Have the crank checked for stroke and bearing condition. All the rest of the suff is not as important but still has value. Ford never put these in trucks. A good usable block is worth 6-700 bucks crank 3-400. Get pete to grind a 1007B on it bor it out to 3 5/16, slap it back to gether and it worth 4 grand and it don't have to be balanced. If the crank and rods are original. JMHO

03-08-2016, 12:04 PM	#5
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,319	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year Ol' Ron, I am just finishing up a 258 incher with the original crank and rods. Is the $150 I spent on balancing it wasted? I would have thought that the 1/8" larger pistons would weigh enough more to make balancing necessary. Does your statement about not balancing it imply to bringing the new piston assemblies to the same weight as the original ones?

03-08-2016, 12:21 PM	#6
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,943	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Be sure and let us know if you buy it and what you found. Anyway to get it running prior to purchasing? $500-600 is a fair price for a running engine.

03-08-2016, 12:40 PM	#7
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year A running engine is nice but doesn't really provide much insurance against cracks and other internal issues. It is still a gamble short of having the block inspected and tested. It will also not tell you what parts are inside (crank) or what oversize/undersizes you are dealing with or previous repairs (sleeves, etc).

03-08-2016, 12:50 PM	#8
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,527	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year I have taken more than one running engine apart and ended up junking it.

03-08-2016, 01:53 PM	#9
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year FoMoCo used green for some of the later truck or pickup engines. 60 plus years can be a long time for an engine to remain original. I've found Mercury cars that had a Ford 3 3/4" stroke crank in them. Unless you know the history from day one, there is no guarantee. A good 4 inch crank core is worth a fair amount but still may need some machine work to make it good. The block is a basic 8BA and would need all the checks to give it an accurate value. Unless you get a guarantee, it's a crap shoot.

03-08-2016, 03:50 PM	#10
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year The theory, behind balancing is rather complicated. I once asked an engine builder of NASCAR and Indy car engines, if he had to change a set of pistons in a finished engine and the pistons were heaver or lighter than the ones in it would he re-balance the engine. His answer was No. Balancing the rotating weight is the most important and some builders use different formulas for adding the reciprocating weight. During the early years of racing we never balanced anything and in 8 years at the track very few engine were lost for on reason or another. I know of no engine rebuilders that balance then, However there hare more balancing shops around now and irt's a good money maker I keep the crank and rods as a set. I also keep all the rods as a set from every engine I take apart. If i have to mix ma6ch a set i have the engine street balanced. Just make up the bob weights from one cylinder and balance the crank. Having done this several times I find that very little is ever taken off. I think Balancing is a feel good thing. But Old Henry would probably disagree with me.

03-08-2016, 07:53 PM	#11
El Rat Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 260	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year Well...@ 5,000 you are kinda correct. @ 10,000 not so much. it's really not a big deal to match weight the pistons and rod big ends. You can do it at home and not spend anything but time (flatties) not racing mouses or blown hem's. As an aside I machined the crap out of a dog bowl flywheel took it down flat and then tapered from the bolt circle to the OD. I took it to my local machine shop (I've dealt with them for 50 years) and the clutch combo required no "anything" absolutely perfect!

03-08-2016, 08:00 PM	#12
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,319	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year Oh well, $150 ain't much in the grand scheme of things. However, I can't see how a balance job can be a moneymaker at that price. I guess I'm still glad I did it, even if it is only a "feel-good" thing.

03-08-2016, 08:05 PM	#13
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year I have always balanced everything I have ever built! Not that I'm disagreeing with Ron, it is just not that expensive in the overall build cost and I'm not interested in having to take anything apart for an issue later on. I've had assemblies that are fine the way they were (thus the balance cost was somewhat a waste of money, but did serve as a check) and I have assemblies that were a mess and required a lot of effort to get corrected. Just never know, but seems like cheap insurance to me.

03-08-2016, 08:19 PM	#14
RalphM Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 2,651	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year I've done just the opposite, never had snyyhing balanced in 40 years of rebuilds, and never had an issue, but these are every day use motors and not hi PO race engines. I'm sure they would have lasted longer with a balance job, but lasted long enough for me without it.

03-08-2016, 08:33 PM	#15
Straightpipes Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ballston Spa, NY Posts: 789	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year My 52 pickup engine was green. Beware Merc heads on a Ford crank.

03-08-2016, 09:50 PM	#18
39topless Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 1,027	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year If the seller of this engine really had this engine, in his truck, for 28 years and, he says, "its never had any machine work done on it", then ... 1. just believe him and buy the thing or, 2. ask him, "if this engine has never had any machine work done on it, how do you know that it's standard bore?"

03-09-2016, 09:18 AM	#19
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,067	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year The way I look at it - is if you can afford to gamble the $500 and not be disappointed that the engine may have issues, then do it. Everybody who builds these things has bought engines that "were running good when pulled out" - and most of us have found reasons as to WHY they were pulled out (cause they needed to be!). If it was me, I'd ask to pull the heads and inspect the bore and valve area. Also, you can use a standard ruler at that point to check the stroke - if it is 4", then you have a Merc crank and the "gamble" is looking better for you. I take an electric drill with a wire brush on the end and some lacquer thinner or acetone and I brush/clean up all the areas around the valves - into the bore and around the bores. Frequently you can see obvious cracks. Now cracks can be anyplace - so being able to pull the pan and look at the pan rails for cracks is great as well. Any while you have the pan off - pull a few bearing caps and generally checkout the main/rod journals and bearings. If he'll let you do these things - then you really increase your odds that this is a good motor and you'll know if it has a Merc crank. If he won't let you do it - then ask for a guarantee of some sort. Sometimes I've asked for full-refunds, other times 1/2, etc. Seems like it is worth chasing down to me . . .

03-09-2016, 09:21 AM	#20
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,067	Re: Found a Mercury flat head engine- Green- year Another thing - in looking at your pictures, I'd say no way this thing was running and being used 4 months ago. There is just too much rust on the pulleys, clutch and bell-housing bolts for that to seem true. It appears to me that it was pulled a long time ago (which is typical). Unless this guy is a personal friend and/or is willing to guarantee the thing - just be prepared for issues . . . or check it out as best you can.