1929 Phaeton Engine Problems...

[rackops]

All:

My second post on the forum!

I'm looking for some opinions/advice on my engine. Here's some background...I bought the car over a year ago and it was beautifully restored. The restoration was completed about 15 years ago, and the engine was rebuilt at that time (I don't know how well it was rebuilt, but it did run really well).

Well, just recently (about two months ago) I noticed that it was leaking radiator fluid out the sides of the head. Not much, but enough to start the paint peeling off the engine.

I also noticed that the engine was running rough, with an uneven idle.

I figured I had a bad head gasket. So, I pulled the head and replaced the gasket with the "deluxe" gasket that you can buy (why skimp on a $28 gasket???) It took me TWO DAYS to get the darn head off (the last time I pulled a head, it was on an engine that had NEVER been touched in 70+ years and it took me 3 hours to pull it...)

I got the head off, cleaned it up, replaced the gasket, and put it back together. No more radiator fluid out the sides...check. BUT...still had an uneven idle and the compression (though not checked) seemed low...the car just seemed underpowered and had very little "pep".

AND - to make it worse, I looked at the back passenger-side head stud and noted that it was wet on top after running for about 30 minutes. What the heck??? Then I noticed that there was radiator fluid leaking THROUGH the threads between the stud and bolt! WTH??????

Talking to my dad (not a model A guy, but a military vehicle guy) he thinks that I may have a warped head. Exactly a year ago this month, I was in a parade and the car overheated. I had to limp back home with it spitting radiator fluid down the road...ouch! He thinks that I may have warped the head then, and maybe caused other damage.

So my question is this: Could it just be a warped head? Or could it be something worse? I don't mind pulling the head and buying another one for it. I'm loathe to pull the engine and have it rebuilt to the tune of $5000 if it's just a warped head...but at the same time, I don't want to drop $300 on a new head and the time to pull the old one if it's not going to fix anything.

Any thoughts/opinions out there????

THANKS!

Dave

[pat in Santa Cruz]

It could well be a warped head, but you want to confirm that before pulling it again... check the compression and check the water for gas bubbles. You might have to place the engine under a load to get bubbles. You need a trustworthy friend to do that by locking the E brake, blocking the wheels and gently releasing the clutch in high gear just enough to load the engine while you look for large gas bubbles in the radiator neck. You can also get a kit that attaches to the neck that will indicate combustion gases in the radiator. The gas test kit is a definitive answer and worth the cost in my opinion. Those new gaskets must be re-torqued several times until they take a set. Try re- torquing it again. A compression check should indicate if one or two cylinders are leaking. The rough running could also be a spark plug gone bad from water when the gasket blew the first time. Even if the head is warped, you can have it surfaced, you do not necessarily need to replace it. If you do have to remove it again, check carefully for cracks in the head and block. Severe over heating can warp a head, adding cold water to a hot engine can crack both the block and head. Water creeping up the bolts can be a warped head, or a stud that was tightened too much and punctured the block at the bottom of the stud bore...not as serious as it sounds. A little stop leak usually stops it, or you can remove the stud and put some RTV at the base. Over heating can also warp the manifolds. A leaking intake manifold will idle rough too. They can also be re surfaced.

[satelite]

I agree with Pat and you definately have to retorque several times after the initial torque. Another check you should make while you nhave the head off is to check the valve seats on the center two exhaust ports especially since you did overheat. If a crack is evident you can have hardend seats installed. Happened to me once. While you have the head off I would have the intake and exhaust maniflods flatenened as an assembly. Most automotive machine shops can do that for you. Make sure you torque the manifold nuts on reassembly.
Don in SC

[rackops]

Guys - thank you SO much for your help! My dad mentioned just tossing some JB Weld down the hole of the rear stud to seal up the leak. I laughed at him...maybe that was a decent idea?

Here are a couple pics of the engine before I removed the head. I just noticed the spot of rust on that rear head bolt...guess it was leaking radiator fluid BEFORE I removed the head! (I thought I had screwed something up! Whew!)

I've got some pics of the head removed, but I can't find them. Will post when I can....

Thanks again for the most helpful advice!

Dave

[rackops]

Originally Posted by pat in Santa Cruz

You can also get a kit that attaches to the neck that will indicate combustion gases in the radiator. The gas test kit is a definitive answer and worth the cost in my opinion.

Pat-

I don't have too many trustworthy friends and my wife has already been party a few too many times to "just stand there sweetheart, and make sure the engine doesn't blow up...." I couldn't find the kit from my normal dealers...can you tell me who sells it? I'd like to add one into my arsenal of tools AND try it out on the car as well...

Thanks a bunch!

Dave

[Tom Wesenberg]

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One more question needs to be answered! Why did the car overheat during the parade? Were you runnign with the spark not advanced? Or, at least not advanced enough?

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by rackops

Pat-

I couldn't find the kit from my normal dealers...can you tell me who sells it? I'd like to add one into my arsenal of tools AND try it out on the car as well...

Thanks a bunch!

Dave

Balkamp makes it, available from NAPA dealers....And BTW, Tom makes an excellent point about determining the cause of the overheating. A good Model A engine with a good radiator runs quite cool. You do not want to go through this again after all your hard work. Find the cause.

[rackops]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

One more question needs to be answered! Why did the car overheat during the parade? Were you runnign with the spark not advanced? Or, at least not advanced enough?

Tom:

Great question! I don't really know. Here are the details: It was a nice, sunny May day...probably getting into the low 80s for the parade. I had never had the engine overhead in the 6 months I had owned the car up to that point and had put on a good number of miles on it. I normally drive it with the spark advanced fully... The parade lasted about an hour of slow-stop-start-slow-stop and as I pulled off to the side of the road after the end of the parade to let my wife and kids out before I drove home, I noticed the smell of hot radiator fluid. I checked the motometer and...man...it was cooking! The engine started to cough, so I pulled over into a fire station (not expecting a fire; just happened to be the safest spot around!) and let it cool down for about a half hour.

20-20 hindsight...I should have called AAA at that point and had it towed home. But, not knowing what I know now, I decided to drive it home - about 10 miles. I had to stop once during the trip to let it cool down as it started to overheat again. Finally got it home, filled the fluids back up (they were fine before the parade, btw) and then put it in the garage.

The next time I drove it, nothing _seemed_ to be the matter, but over time, I did notice the idle got a bit more rough (I could tell that not everything was firing 100% right) and then over time I noticed the paint peeling on the side of the engine from the coolant running down the side. Didn't help that in the meantime, I was overseas for about six months out of the rest of the year, so it wasn't something that I was looking at regularly and she just sat in the garage while I was gone.

I did empty the coolant out of the radiator and I was surprised I didn't see any particulate matter...it looked clean. The radiator is about 15 years old - I believe it was replaced when the car was restored. The water pump is the same age - it's a greaseless model and it appears to work fine.

I'm still scratching my head as to why it overheated. Of course, I haven't been in a parade since, so I haven't done the whole stop-start-slow of a parade again to see if it will overheat again either.

I've contemplated just replacing the radiator...but I'm not sure if that's a fix...and that's pretty expensive "just" to buy one and test out a theory!

ANY advice/thoughts/opinions would be most appreciated.

Dave

[pat in Santa Cruz]

full advance should never be used, especially at slow RPM. At idle and slow speeds, the lever should be at half way. At 35mph to 45, it should be about 3 clicks up from the bottom. The full advance position was to compensate for when the points block wears and they become too close, which retards the spark. In that circumstance, full lever advance would set the spark at the best degree for "high speed" driving. On a stock head, 32 degrees advance is about the max at 50MPH. For high compression heads, around 28 degrees max. Too much advance will cause the flame front to work against the rotation of the engine, which can damage the bearings and can contribute to over heating. Another cause of your parade trouble could have been a loose fan belt. If you have a thermostat, perhaps it froze shut. Or a head bolt might have worked loose and the combustion gases were leaking into the coolant. Incorrect fuel mix, too rich or too lean, will cause over heating too..

Your description of events that day sure would indicate a warped head is probable. Possibly the manifolds warped too. If the engine was hot when you added more coolant, and if tests indicate combustion gas in the radiator, you should inspect for cracks in the head ( especially the center bolt area) and the block, especially between the exhaust valve seat and the cylinder walls and in the center area. A warped head and/or manifold is no big deal to repair, you just take them to an automotive machine shop and have them surfaced. A cracked block is more of a bummer, but not the end of the world...its just more work and money. If you determine that you must replace the head, clean the bolt and nut threads before re-installing so the nuts turn easily. Lightly oil the threads. I use 3 in 1 oil for that. Torque the nuts in stages until you reach final torque (55 lbs on stock head, 65 on HC heads) Start the engine, run it until warm. Cool it overnight, re- torque when cool. Then drive it. Retorque several times with the new style gaskets. Ford service bulletins say to re-torque hot; Larry Brumfield always recommended doing it when cool. I think Larry was on to something, since the A engine heats unevenly and when warm the studs will be different lengths from heat expansion. Re- torque the nuts one at a time by backing off 1/8th turn, then tightening so the click on the torque wrench happens while the nut is in motion. I have found that the new gaskets can require re- torqueing around 5 times or even more. After the second torqueing, I check it again at 25 miles, 100 miles, 300 miles, 600 miles and 1000 miles.

I would try re- torquing what you have now and test run it to see if that's possibly all you need to do.

good luck

[rackops]

Here are a couple pics from when I removed the head. First, this is what the underside of the head looked like after I removed it. Do note that not all of the goo is from the engine...I did use copious amounts of WD-40 (and others) to break the head free....

The second picture is of the head, cleaned up, after some wire brushing...

[rackops]

Now here's the block, after head removal and after being cleaned up. That I can see, no visible cracks or anything else that would be a notable problem...but I'm open to other opinions! Thanks!

Dave

[rackops]

Another update...it was a beautiful day today, so I pulled my Phaeton out and decided to retorque the head nuts. I was amazed...some of them were easily down around 30 pounds...and I KNOW I torqued them down to 55 pounds originally! I fired the car up and it still didn't sound 100% right, but it did sound better. I made a couple trips around the block and it survived that...a good sign!

I did look over the manifold closely and I noted that it appears warped...there's a bit of an exhaust leak out the bottom of the port on the #2 cylinder. Looks like that got warped as well.

What I've done is ordered a new head, stud, and gasket set (I wanted a high-compression head anyway...now was time to buy it) and I also bought a new manifold and gaskets. From the machine shops I've found around here, it was cheaper to buy a new one than to have them figure out how to work on one of these...ouch!

I plan on popping the head again - after running a compression test first, just to check - and then replacing it with a new head, studs, and gasket. Same for the manifold as well. I also have new spark plugs on order so I can replace those. Not sure what else I can do at the moment, but if these can save me a $5000 charge to rebuild the engine, I'm ALL for it!

Thanks for all the advice so far!

Dave

[pat in Santa Cruz]

given that old and overheated exhaust manifolds are usually drooping at #4 port, a new one isn't a bad idea. If all the ports are aligned on an oldie, surfacing it should only cost about $40. When you get the new ones, do not assume they are aligned. Bolt them together on the studs, then remove them as a unit and check the gasket surfaces for evenness. Opinions vary on how much out of dead even they can be...I prefer them dead even, tho' some would say within .010 is o.k.

When you go to remove the head studs, proceed carefully when you find a stubborn one. They can break off easily if they're old and crusty, especially the ones by the exhaust valves. I remove the easy ones first to get them out of the way, then start on the stubborn ones. Take your time, use lots of good penetrant, tapping and time (Kroil, Liquid Wrench, not WD40.. automatic trans fluid and acetone 50/50 has been found to work as well as Kroil but far cheaper.) You might have to use heat on the worst ones. If you break one off, follow the link to the solution.
http://idisk.mac.com/forever4/Public...tudremoval.htm

[Dave in MN]

If you are using the silicone headgasket you should expect to torque it a couple times. They work great but need some extra attention in the early hours of running. Watch the directions that come with the gasket closely. Good luck with your new parts. Check your oil...change it soon if necessary, you may have gotten some water in the oil during the event. Good day!

[Jack '29 Sport Coupe]

Did you put the head on a surface plate to check for warpage? If I had the least doubt about it, I'd get it milled. Cost is cheap.

Jim

[anut]

i allwase have my heads and manifolds planed lots cheper than new ones