59A-B parts into an 8BA block

[coilover]

I DID do a search and it came up with no match so need to pick some expert brains. Took the heads off of two 59A's and both had cylinders split from top to bottom even though the areas around the valve seats were fine. One has very few miles on it so I would like to switch everything over into a 49 8BA standard bore block that is good. Cam, crank assembly, front cover, distributor, center outlet heads, vented pan, intake, water pumps, clutch and flywheel, everything. Any real problems in this? Have a 50 Mercury bellhousing so it will fit up to the transmission in my 46 coupe. Thank you in advance; Evan

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

i'm building one right now. 8BA block with 59AB guts. Of course I just bored mine to 3-5/16 and useing a Merc crank =276ci. Esky 400jr cam, Offy 375 heads, aluminum flywheel. No sure on the carb yet, I might use the four 97's on my 40 for now. 59AB style cam with 59 gears and front mounted cast iron crab. 59 water pumps, ( plug the 2 top water holes ) 39 front crack pulley, leave off the 8BA seal sleeve. Use 49-50 Merc oil pan (the best) or truck oil pan with rear sump. On your's use the 8BA flywheel, the 59 wheel will put the ring gear in the wrong place. Depends on the pressure plate bolt patten. The 8BA car has a 9-1/2in PP and a differant thro out bearing than the 48 and older car and truck. I usually redrill the 8BA wheel to use the 9in. PP, I like it better than the 10in because it's lighter. The 9in. will take all the HP you flathead will put out. I get my clutch and PP from Wayne Ind Clutch. If I'm building a stemmy engine like the one i'm building now I'll have stiffer springs put in the PP. Any other questions ask away. Walt

[Glenn Thoreson]

I have deleted my messages as I'm tired and getting confused. That's what happens when you start getting old and try to think. I'll get back with an answer on the head gasket issue and clarify some of the other stuff I've learned from building bastardized fltheads..

Walt, that sounds like it's going to be one sweet engine.

I do have a '39 flat deck block that has a hairline crack in the valve chamber. Stop leak has always kept it sealed up. Still usable. It's a 221 cu. in with the 3 1/16" bore that has plenty of meat to bore it out to a 239, if anyone can use it. Bearings failed big time. I have no use for it and am going to part it out. It's in S.W. WY if anyone wants it.

[JWL]

There are a few things to be aware of before building such an engine with 8BA style block and 59A components----

Although it will "probably" run for many miles, it will not have the formidable longivity of the stock Ford design. Here is why:

The 8ba block does not have front gear oiling provision of the 59A. Using the 59A cam and gears will result in more heat and wear at the gears, block face, and front cover.

The 8BA block does not have the waterpump oiling passages of the 59A so using 59A waterpumps by blocking the upper pump holes will result in earlier pump failure. There are non-Ford pumps available, with sealed bearings, which might solve this problem.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Yea JWL. It was late last night and I forgot about oil hole in the pumps, but as you say, get the new pumps with the sealed bearings. As far as the head gaskets go, I've ckecked back and forth with both gaskets and have decided to use the 59 gaskets on the 8BA block with the 59 heads. Walt

[Glenn Thoreson]

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This morning while I was thinking clearly I compared a few apples to oranges and this is what I found:
You can't use the 59A heads on an 8BA block. The water hole configuration is different and the is a water hole at the front of the deck that the 59A head and
gasket won't cover.
You can use your 59A intake manifold on an 8BA but there are differences. First, you will lose your crankcase ventilation. The 8BA uses a road draft tube as opposed to the fuel pump stand and pan vent on the 59A. Since you won't be able to use your 59 pan on this mod, you will only have one vent opening. Useless, as there won't be any air flow. Next thing is the 8BA intake uses far fewer bolt than the 59A. Not a problem until you think about your coil bracket and plug wire conduits. They won't fitand you will have a bunch of vacant bolt holes showing unless you're into doing a lot of drilling and tapping.
You can use your 59A cam with the matching gear cover, no problem. You can get the better aluminum cam gear for it, or you can replace both gears with 8BA gears.
You can't use a 59A flywheel on an 8BA. I found that out decades ago. The bolts and locating pins are the same but the casting on the rear of the 8BA is different. A 59A flywheel won't even come close to the cankshaft flange.
Water pumps: As I mentioned before, use the sealed ball bearing truck pumps and your 59A crank pulley. Speedway Motors makes excellent pumps for this application, of their own design, and cost less than Skips' pumps. Not cheap, however. 59A pumps don't work.
If I were you, I would either search out a good 59A block or switch to a proper 8BA, which is a much better engine. Oils better and runs cooler, longer lasting and a little more power.
I have been playing around with stuffing 8BA rotating assemblies into the earlier engines for quite some time. Not complicated and works well. I've never tried going the other way.
For what it's worth, there is a rebuilder in Wichita, KS that has extremely good prices on rebuilt flatheads. The name is United Motor Supply, if memory serves. They have one man that does nothing but flatheads. Been doing it for 40 years. I've talked to him and he is really on the ball with these things. They flatly will not use repaired blocks. There is usually a waiting list as finding good blocks is getting very difficult.
They offer cheap shipping to anywhere in the lower 48. I wouldn't even worry about sending back a core. The cost ain't worth it, even if you had one. It wouldn't hurt to do a search on the net to get their phone number and talk to him.

[rotorwrench]

You can swap heads but holes have to be plugged to do it. I seem to remember seeing at least one 8BA that was modified to use the 59A pan by cutting one of the cast iron truck half bells and modifying the bell to bolt to the pan. Folks have been playing with these old motors so long there probably hasn't been too many things that haven't been tried. Now whether many of these mods worked or not is something else. If the cylinders are damaged on the 59A where they can still be sleeved, you might condider that. If the pan rails are still good, it won't break the bank to get a couple of sleeves installed.

The only other thing to be warry of is using 59A crank with 8BA rods. The older cranks are missing an oil hole on each con rod journal so that won't work. You can use near all the old stuff in the later 8BA engines for conversion purposes as long as it will get lubed like it was designed too.

[Bob G/Spanaway]

I've been running all 59A external parts on my 8BA in my '40 coupe for 10 years.
The thing I did about crankcase ventilation is use a PCV valve.
Have to use 59A cam & crank gears because the thrust is right direction for 59 front cover and dist.
It works fine.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Bob Spanaway is right. If your going to use the crab dist use the 59 gears, thay with thrust back against the block,(the 8BA gears thrust out and rides on the front cover and is't apped to push against the crab dist) As far as plugging the 2 water holes ( one on top one on the front) a 1/8 pipe tap will put a thread in the hole and us a 1/8 pipe plug with an allen head. Put a little JB weld on top of the plug and you won't even see it. PCV valve works best, just use the 59 breather pipe under the front of the intake manifold, It's easier to use an electric fuel pump and just use a stand pipe on the rear to put oil in and a tight cover with a grommet on top for a PCV valve. Don't worry about another hole to suck air in, It will suck enough air around the dip stick and what ever goes down past the pistons and rings. I would just put a short 7/16 bolt down the fuel pump push rod hole because the 8BA rod bushing has a little pee hole half way down the hole that goes into the main oil line. The hole is so small you wouldn't loose any oil pressure if you left it open but it will spray a little misst of oil up into the valve spring area, a little more that the intake guides need. People have been running 59 heads on 8BA blocks for years. Walt

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by JWL

There are a few things to be aware of before building such an engine with 8BA style block and 59A components----

Although it will "probably" run for many miles, it will not have the formidable longivity of the stock Ford design. Here is why:

The 8ba block does not have front gear oiling provision of the 59A. Using the 59A cam and gears will result in more heat and wear at the gears, block face, and front cover.

The 8BA block does not have the waterpump oiling passages of the 59A so using 59A waterpumps by blocking the upper pump holes will result in earlier pump failure. There are non-Ford pumps available, with sealed bearings, which might solve this problem.

I am curious about your mention of the gear oiling. If the 8BA gears survive in this environment, why wouldn't the 59A gears also survive? Thanks, Jack

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by Glenn Thoreson

This morning while I was thinking clearly I compared a few apples to oranges and this is what I found:
You can't use the 59A heads on an 8BA block. The water hole configuration is different and the is a water hole at the front of the deck that the 59A head and
gasket won't cover.
You can use your 59A intake manifold on an 8BA but there are differences. First, you will lose your crankcase ventilation. The 8BA uses a road draft tube as opposed to the fuel pump stand and pan vent on the 59A. Since you won't be able to use your 59 pan on this mod, you will only have one vent opening. Useless, as there won't be any air flow. Next thing is the 8BA intake uses far fewer bolt than the 59A. Not a problem until you think about your coil bracket and plug wire conduits. They won't fitand you will have a bunch of vacant bolt holes showing unless you're into doing a lot of drilling and tapping.
You can use your 59A cam with the matching gear cover, no problem. You can get the better aluminum cam gear for it, or you can replace both gears with 8BA gears.
You can't use a 59A flywheel on an 8BA. I found that out decades ago. The bolts and locating pins are the same but the casting on the rear of the 8BA is different. A 59A flywheel won't even come close to the cankshaft flange.
Water pumps: As I mentioned before, use the sealed ball bearing truck pumps and your 59A crank pulley. Speedway Motors makes excellent pumps for this application, of their own design, and cost less than Skips' pumps. Not cheap, however. 59A pumps don't work.
If I were you, I would either search out a good 59A block or switch to a proper 8BA, which is a much better engine. Oils better and runs cooler, longer lasting and a little more power.
I have been playing around with stuffing 8BA rotating assemblies into the earlier engines for quite some time. Not complicated and works well. I've never tried going the other way.
For what it's worth, there is a rebuilder in Wichita, KS that has extremely good prices on rebuilt flatheads. The name is United Motor Supply, if memory serves. They have one man that does nothing but flatheads. Been doing it for 40 years. I've talked to him and he is really on the ball with these things. They flatly will not use repaired blocks. There is usually a waiting list as finding good blocks is getting very difficult.
They offer cheap shipping to anywhere in the lower 48. I wouldn't even worry about sending back a core. The cost ain't worth it, even if you had one. It wouldn't hurt to do a search on the net to get their phone number and talk to him.

I have run the 59A setup on my 8BA block for 20 years now. Still running strong with probably 50,000 miles on it.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Jack, the 59 gears will work fine on the 8BA block. Walt

[JWL]

The 8BA gears are oiled through the 8BA cam. The 59A has oiling from the block design. Using the 59A cam and gears, with no oiling provision, is what I have written a cautionary reminder about. Yes, everyone knows the 59A gears will "work". I am not aware of any studies as to how well. Results might vary. Yes, there is a way to get oil there.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

I've always figured there is plenty of oil throwed on to the crank gear to keep the cam gear oiled. I have run this setup for yr's, I always use aluminum cam gear. Walt

[flatjack9]

And I would think there would be enough oil coming from the cam bearing to lubricate the thrust surface.

[296 V8]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

And I would think there would be enough oil coming from the cam bearing to lubricate the thrust surface.

Very true right there ^^^

These motors lose half their oil presser at the cam bearings … there’s a ton of oil running down the front of the block.

[19Fordy]

If you are not running the stock fuel pump you can leave the stock 8BA fuel pump push rod hole unplugged and make an oil filler stand with a cap and rod that seats on top of the fuel pump push rod hole to prevent the oil mist problem.

[barnfind]

RE the 7/16 bolt replacing the fuel pump rod,

"I would just put a short 7/16 bolt down the fuel pump push rod hole because the 8BA rod bushing has a little pee hole half way down the hole that goes into the main oil line."

Do u use JB Weld, Silicone, or anything to keep the bolt from bouncing out?

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

19Forty. I like that oil filler cap with the plug for the rod bushing. I would install a bung on the low side of that filler pipe for a PCV valve. Walt