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Old 05-26-2021, 06:58 PM   #41
Andy
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

On my Deuce, I always had the car in a very nose down attitude when bleeding. Probably silly. The rear backing plates mount at an angle and with worn shoes or drums the wheel cylinder has a lot of volume in it. I was trying to get the air out of the cylinders.
Here is a random thought. It might be feasable to use a suction blow gun to vacumn fluid to the wheel cylinders. Just hook up the hose to the fitting and watch for fluid coming out??
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Old 05-26-2021, 08:16 PM   #42
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

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Look a bit further over, DD. The whole top of the K is missing in the centre.

Ah, Mart....I didn't even see that HUGE chunk missing out of the crossmember until I saw this last picture. If you compare THIS picture with the orange example just following, it's easy to imagine that there is nothing substantial left (if ANYTHING at all) of the integrity of the center crossmember. This is an awful situation, in more ways than just the brakes.







And someone else also pointed-out some concern with the EFFECTIVE length of the brake pedal. You have to look really carefully at that BRAKE pedal in this picture to realize just how severely it has been massaged. No matter, when the brakes FINALLY are bled and working, the pedal ratio (length) is gonna be too short (effectively) to produce enough foot pressure to comfortably stop the car.

To MARSHALL ...... You have your work cut-out for ya, Sir! But I believe as others have indicated, WE ALL will help you along with any advice or emotional help in getting this car back to a condition you can be proud of, and that certainly will be safe to operate and enjoy. At the very least, that engine/trans needs to come out, and WE ALL can start from scratch and get the foundation in place to get you on the right track again. I'm surely 'GAME'!

Once again Marshall, WHERE are you located, geographically? DD




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Old 05-27-2021, 12:06 AM   #43
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

"Once again Marshall, WHERE are you located, geographically? DD"

Davenport, Iowa, (the Quad Cities) with Illinois just across the Mississippi River. Click on my name in the poster I.D. panel to the left of the thread and open the public profile to see my background in antique Fords. Lots of Model A and T time served, but other than helping a different local friend a few years ago with his 1937 MECHANICAL brakes, I have no early V8 experience. And it shows.
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Old 05-27-2021, 12:41 AM   #44
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Hydraulics are usually very tight, granted if all is bleed well. Once it is charged it requires very little pedal travel. Where are you leaking fluid? Using the early mechanical cross bar has been done before with Cadillac master cylinders if the pedal matches the mc push/pull. If the pedal doesn't have a cantilever reversing the pedal you are not compressing the mc. I'd also venture to say you have either a bad mc or wheel cylinders. Guess if it's not broke don't fix it. till it fixed.


It's okay to expose an issue. Only way to fix it. Nothing a welder can't fix, its just metal.

Last edited by Tinker; 05-27-2021 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 05-27-2021, 03:10 AM   #45
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

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Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut View Post
Lots of Model A and T time served, but I have no early V8 experience. And it shows.
Marshall
Hey Marshall .....NO APOLOGIES Necessary! The important thing here is that you realize your lack of experience (UNLIKE the genius that built this car) and you've wisely reached-out for help to this "V8-bunch" of folks, MANY of which have been there and done it, too!

It is highly-commendable that you're willing to undertake this "NOT FOR THE FAINT-HEARTED" project for a "FRIEND"! I'm sure that there is going to be more time, effort and monie$ going into this car than first thought, but hey....they ain't growin' '32s on trees any more, and most folks never even get the chance to build a NICE one, done "RIGHT". From what I have seen thru your pictures, the majority of your problems stem from the complete 'hack-job' done to that crossmember, effectively destroying it, as well as all of the garbage, hap-hazard pedals and Master Cylinder set-up.

Below are a couple of links showing some very reasonable, good-looking solutions to many of the problems your '32 is starting-out with. The car featured below is the '32 pick-up of Dennis Lacy. Dennis is the son of Richard Lacy, both owners of the "Early Ford V8 Garage" which is a California shop that has engineered and assembled "bolt-on" hydraulic brake conversion systems for '32 thru '38 Fords for many years now. They know what they're doing, and their stuff works! Teaser picture below!

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...#post-11039172





Member "glennpm" has been through the same mess that you're up against. Glenn posted this very informative "brake info" link (BELOW) which MAY just help you sort a few things out in your mind.

https://www.markwilliams.com/braketech.html

I would bet that Glenn would have very little problem offering first-hand advice if you asked of him.....quite knowledgeable, and a good guy, too!

I really believe that you and your friend would be a hundred miles ahead by starting-out and removing the engine/trans in that car so that we can figure what is needed to get that crossmember back up to snuff. One OTHER very important function of that crossmember is locating the wishbone ball for the front axle radius rods. No telling how severely this function has been compromised with the hacking-up of that crossmember. If you guys could get the chassis opened-up to a point like the pic below, damage could be easily evaluated/addressed, as well as working on mounting an appropriate M/C and PEDAL set-up. What ye thinks? DD










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Old 05-27-2021, 03:26 AM   #46
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

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Richard Lacy was a swell guy. Roy Nacewicz also. Two guys that did some great stuff. Helped me, and were just straight up ford car guys.
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Old 05-27-2021, 07:41 AM   #47
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Lacy can also supply an adjustable drag link using two of the original style tie rod ends and a bar with both ends threaded.
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Old 06-05-2021, 01:26 PM   #48
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

No progress since early in the week. 'Still waiting for brake shoe linings to arrive before the next step towards resolution of the brake problem can take place. More info later...
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Old 07-15-2021, 12:27 PM   #49
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe: UPDATE

No luck getting the Frankenstein conglomeration of mixed parts and various years hydraulic brake conversion to work in this car. After doing research and asking a lot of questions via email and telephone, we have decided to order a fabricated K-member with brake/clutch and MC combination from Millworks Hotrod in New Hampshire. Other suppliers require that we supply original pedals and shaft. Not an easy nor cheap requirement. Millworks' stock pedal/MC kits will not work in our car because the 1939 transmission interferes with the brake pedal travel. Also, the truck pedal cage in place now just isn't going to work. The K-member has been so badly cut up and cut out in three major places that there is virtually no lateral frame support. No point in trying to reuse it. Our only alternative was to order a specially fabricated kit from Dave at Millworks. Not cheap, but I see no other alternative if we want this car to stop. Minimum of a three week delivery estimate. The pedals are new and not exactly like originals, but at this point, that's only a minor consideration. This car is so screwed up beneath the sheet metal that non-authentic pedals is the least of our concerns.
We'll start the process by removing the old K-member by drilling out the rivets. I assume that in order to install this new K-member, we will have to pull the rear end?
In early August, I am scheduled for a knee replacement surgery, which is about the time the kit will arrive. Allowing for a two-month recovery period before I am allowed to do heavy lifting, it may be late October before I can report back on our progress. The project will most likely be on hold until then.
Stay tuned...

Thanks for everyone's suggestions so far.

Marshall

Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 07-15-2021 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 07-15-2021, 01:08 PM   #50
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe: UPDATE

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In early August, I am scheduled for a knee replacement surgery, which is about the time the kit will arrive. Allowing for a two-month recovery period before I am allowed to do heavy lifting, it may be late October before I can report back on our progress. The project will most likely be on hold until then.
Stay tuned...

Thanks for everyone's suggestions so far.

Marshall

Marshall .....I certainly appreciate the update. I was thinking about you and this project last night. Good luck on your knee surgery next month. I've had rotten knees for years now, so I can appreciate your situation.

I clicked on the link for "Millworks", but didn't see any obvious reference or picture of the replacement K-member you speak of. Any chance that you might have a picture or two? Are you going to be able to replace all of that with the body still on the frame? Dick D (DD)
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Old 07-15-2021, 03:11 PM   #51
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Hi is it like this one? https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...mbers.1235543/

Phil
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Old 07-15-2021, 04:31 PM   #52
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

V8COOPMAN -
Because it's a custom fabrication for our car based upon the photos Dave at Millworks studied, I would guess that's why there is no depiction of it in the Millworks catalog or webpage. Kind of a one-off thing.

Ideucev8 -
I assume it will be something like seen in your link, hopefully not as massive - and I sure hope it can be replaced with the body still in place. I realize vast projects like this are done when the chassis is bare, but we don't have much choice. The car was purchased all "restored" above the chassis, but butchered beneath. The damage to the frame/K-member is too massive and dangerous to leave in place. If we have to, we may need to remove the body. Do you guys think this can be installed from beneath without removing the body?

Marshall
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Old 07-15-2021, 05:04 PM   #53
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

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V8COOPMAN -
If we have to, we may need to remove the body. Do you guys think this can be installed from beneath without removing the body?

Marshall

Man, it won't be easy. There are a total of SEVEN rivets on EACH side....THREE on each side on the TOP flange of the frame rail. Those top ones may be a bear to drill out w/body in place. Some of the " '32 guys" here ought to know better! You can see all seven rivet holes on EACH side in this pic. DD


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Old 07-15-2021, 06:40 PM   #54
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

I would consider repairing or having someone repair the existing K-member and go back to stock 32 pedals. You can find damaged K-members or pieces for repair sections. I repaired a cut up K-member in a 32 sedan without pulling the body. I think that would be a better option than drilling all of the rivets and replacing with an aftermarket piece. To me, that sound like a can of worms. Original 32 chassis were a clean and simple design, and easy to add hydraulic brakes with very few modifications. Get back to ground zero, the way Ford designed it and your project will be much more simple moving forward.

Attached is a pic of a hydraulic brake conversion I did on a 32 a few years ago.

Neal
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Old 07-15-2021, 06:52 PM   #55
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

DD you're correct those top three rivets and using them for bolts or rivets is not possible. You could grind the three and remove the old X-member but not replace it unless the body is lifted a few inches allowing bolting, body off for rivets I think.

I'd be inclined to keep the original riveted end, trimming it to mate with thee replacement fasteners and doing a pretty weld job on it. From the rivets 2 picture, you can see an obvious cut line.

Couple of early pictures of my roadster.
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File Type: jpg Rivets 2.jpg (63.7 KB, 27 views)
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Old 07-15-2021, 06:54 PM   #56
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

X2 on what Neal said.... I realize it will be a tough job with the body on. But, the results should be worth the trouble. And, I believe 'real' 32 pedals will also be worth the effort. Then, if you want, you can go with EV8 Garage parts (Richard or Dennis Lacy), or... do as Neal has shown.
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Old 07-15-2021, 06:56 PM   #57
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Look at Neal's chassis above. You can really see the rivets problem.


I agree with him about trying to get a damaged original that has a good part where you need it.
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Old 07-15-2021, 07:22 PM   #58
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

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Look at Neal's chassis above. You can really see the rivets problem.


I agree with him about trying to get a damaged original that has a good part where you need it.

As "Glenn" says .....they ARE out there. Bring BIG wallet, usually! DD


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Old 07-15-2021, 09:59 PM   #59
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

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DO NOT ignore this guys suggestion,

I believe that they have a solution to this long time vexing problem,

I'm an "8BA guy" but it looks like these guys have the right line on this.
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Old 07-16-2021, 06:44 AM   #60
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Boy, the new pieces from SaltCity look great. I'd be giving them a call, send them pictures of your K member and see if you could just buy the main piece without the braces.

I found some sold K members with prices around $600. See if DD will part with one of his stash :-))

Glenn

"These parts have not been put on our website yet, so until then, Email [email protected] or call the shop during business hours 385-777-1934 to Pre-order."
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