The Ford Barn

bart78 · 03-28-2015, 08:11 AM

I have some questions about a mill. Maybe someone can answer them for me. I was looking at a older Van Norman 2r3. It is a vertical horizontal mill. It can allso mill on a 45 degree angle. I have read that these were good machines back in the day. And was wondering how good they would do on boring cylinders. I was told by the guy that they had bored the mains on a engine with a 90 degree attachment that he has with it. I'm going to be building a new shop soon. And wanting a mill in it. But would like to do some work on engines if I can.

mfagan · 03-28-2015, 09:07 AM

Looks like a nice heavy machine. You would need to build a
fixture to hold block, then indicate each cylinder.

Hopefully the machine has a lot of tooling with it....

Also, make sure every thing functions properly, as it would be
expensive to repair.

Bob C · 03-28-2015, 10:57 AM

Looks like this web site has a lot of info on them
http://jmkasunich.com/vannorman/VN_Home.htm

Bob

trainguy · 03-28-2015, 11:34 AM

I doubt that you would be able to fit a block between the spindle and the table let alone fitting a boring head and a angle fixture.I owned a smaller Van Norman many years ago and found it to be a handy machine,but not as practical as a Bridgeport type machine.The no.50 milling machine tooling is somewhat expensive unless you can find it second hand.I feel you would be happier with a Bridgport type mill.Phil

bart78 · 03-28-2015, 12:00 PM

We have three Bridgports. And they don't work that well for a engine block. Mainly because they don't have enough travel. And on a Model A block. Would not go the whole depth of the cylinder. We have a big machine shop. But nothing really to do engine work on. We mostly have cnc equipment. I've seen a van norman 777 mated to a bridgport that worked real good. But would still not have a way to bore the mains. I am about to buy out a few large hoards of flathead engines. And have a few places where the guys have a few of them. I'm getting them all cheap. And figured I might spend some free time with my son on them.

russcc · 03-28-2015, 12:03 PM

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Trainguy is right on target. The Van Norman machine is a great milling machine. I ran one in the early '60s at my first job in the Old Waltham Watch Building in Waltham MA where the company was originally founded in the late 1800's. The Van Norman machine declined in popularity with the emergence of the Bridgeport, a very versatile vertical mill. When CNC emerged, Van Normal became obsolete, and to some degree, the Bridgeport. The Bridgeport can be fitted with digital controls, and you will find it, or foreign knock offs, in use in almost any machine shop that is not strictly production CNC. Bridgeport was acquired by Hardinge in NY. Last I knew, Hardinge supplied most of the parts for them. There are rebuilding services for the Bridgeport, work can generally be done at your location or the vendors. Good suggestion to consider a different machine than the Van Norman for boring. If you are going to invest in equipment for boring, you should be looking into a machine that bores off the centerline, not the deck. They are not cheap. For all around milling work, the vertical Bridgeport is the way was to go. I bought a 1978 model in a junk yard for $750., (scrap value). Spent some time cleaning it up, and have been using ever since. Keep in mind that many of the machines are 3 phase, so you will need a phase converter in you only have 2 phase 250V.

rotorwrench · 03-28-2015, 12:48 PM

Van Norman made (and still does) dedicated engine boring machines but the mill is more limited in what it can do. Like bart78, I have also seen the Van Norman boring bars mated to the dovetail J-head Bridgeport base so they could use the table to adjust the block below the boring bar with some amount of precision. I don't think the head is easily removable from the Van Norman mill.

George/Maine · 03-28-2015, 02:08 PM

I think you would be better with a boring bar machine do one at a time.
When they were done in the day Ford did 4 cylinders at a time in one shot.
And for boring main bearing I think the spindle would bound around to much.
Does it have a 3" or 4" spindle.

34fordy · 03-28-2015, 03:05 PM

I believe that you are getting good advice--I had opportunity to use a mill like the one you are looking at for a number of years--A very good machine built in the late 50's or early 60's--I still own a small mill and a lathe--
Although these machines had very close tolerances at one time, they now have wear in different places--This affects the accuracy greatly--If you know your machine well you make adjustments, and sometimes in the middle of a cut--I do not think you would want to do this boring a cylinder-
It is nice to have an older milling machine for doing many things, but if I had a specific job in mind like boring engine blocks I would buy a machine that was more specific to the intended task--I have never bought any used machine that did not have a few surprises--Parts for a 60 year old mill can be very hard to locate and very expensive--I wish you luck whatever you do--

Heard · 03-28-2015, 08:04 PM

One other thing as a side note...and this has no bearing on using a Van Norman for boring, but if you want a Van Norman for general milling work, make sure you get one with a 'Q' in the model number. Otherwise, it will NOT have a quill.

big job · 03-29-2015, 07:39 AM

Just my thoughts, of course the price & being available. As fate always has it- the perfect
mill priced right is always on the other side of the planet. wonder if you have measured
the quill travel and the Z travel for your needs? I dont know because here (E coast) is
Bridgeport country cause they were built here and just about 8 out of 10 shops, there's
a Bridgeport in there somewhere. Myself I never saw a Van Norman in the flesh
but the tests of time says they are right up there. I can only say 'a mill is better than
no mill' that will do for now or a few yrs or maybe the right one will come in time.
I fall into the 2% got the only one around here, a big ass 10x52 Cincinnati that has a
big throat and table capacity all power feed, but there is good and bad too. Its like, too
bad= mills were thrown in a pot, stirred up and the perfect mill created; aint gonna happen with manual mills which we are talking about. what can I say: think its a good
start for you..

me talkin out loud again> right or wrong<
sam

03-28-2015, 08:11 AM	#1
bart78 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Stephenville tx Posts: 1,019	Van Norman Mill I have some questions about a mill. Maybe someone can answer them for me. I was looking at a older Van Norman 2r3. It is a vertical horizontal mill. It can allso mill on a 45 degree angle. I have read that these were good machines back in the day. And was wondering how good they would do on boring cylinders. I was told by the guy that they had bored the mains on a engine with a 90 degree attachment that he has with it. I'm going to be building a new shop soon. And wanting a mill in it. But would like to do some work on engines if I can.

03-28-2015, 09:07 AM	#2
mfagan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kaufman, TX Posts: 822	Re: Van Norman Mill Looks like a nice heavy machine. You would need to build a fixture to hold block, then indicate each cylinder. Hopefully the machine has a lot of tooling with it.... Also, make sure every thing functions properly, as it would be expensive to repair.

03-28-2015, 10:57 AM	#3
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,741	Re: Van Norman Mill Looks like this web site has a lot of info on them http://jmkasunich.com/vannorman/VN_Home.htm Bob

03-28-2015, 11:34 AM	#4
trainguy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lehighton Pa Posts: 1,085	Re: Van Norman Mill I doubt that you would be able to fit a block between the spindle and the table let alone fitting a boring head and a angle fixture.I owned a smaller Van Norman many years ago and found it to be a handy machine,but not as practical as a Bridgeport type machine.The no.50 milling machine tooling is somewhat expensive unless you can find it second hand.I feel you would be happier with a Bridgport type mill.Phil

03-28-2015, 12:00 PM	#5
bart78 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Stephenville tx Posts: 1,019	Re: Van Norman Mill We have three Bridgports. And they don't work that well for a engine block. Mainly because they don't have enough travel. And on a Model A block. Would not go the whole depth of the cylinder. We have a big machine shop. But nothing really to do engine work on. We mostly have cnc equipment. I've seen a van norman 777 mated to a bridgport that worked real good. But would still not have a way to bore the mains. I am about to buy out a few large hoards of flathead engines. And have a few places where the guys have a few of them. I'm getting them all cheap. And figured I might spend some free time with my son on them.

03-28-2015, 12:03 PM	#6
russcc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,871	Re: Van Norman Mill Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Trainguy is right on target. The Van Norman machine is a great milling machine. I ran one in the early '60s at my first job in the Old Waltham Watch Building in Waltham MA where the company was originally founded in the late 1800's. The Van Norman machine declined in popularity with the emergence of the Bridgeport, a very versatile vertical mill. When CNC emerged, Van Normal became obsolete, and to some degree, the Bridgeport. The Bridgeport can be fitted with digital controls, and you will find it, or foreign knock offs, in use in almost any machine shop that is not strictly production CNC. Bridgeport was acquired by Hardinge in NY. Last I knew, Hardinge supplied most of the parts for them. There are rebuilding services for the Bridgeport, work can generally be done at your location or the vendors. Good suggestion to consider a different machine than the Van Norman for boring. If you are going to invest in equipment for boring, you should be looking into a machine that bores off the centerline, not the deck. They are not cheap. For all around milling work, the vertical Bridgeport is the way was to go. I bought a 1978 model in a junk yard for $750., (scrap value). Spent some time cleaning it up, and have been using ever since. Keep in mind that many of the machines are 3 phase, so you will need a phase converter in you only have 2 phase 250V.

03-28-2015, 12:48 PM	#7
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Van Norman Mill Van Norman made (and still does) dedicated engine boring machines but the mill is more limited in what it can do. Like bart78, I have also seen the Van Norman boring bars mated to the dovetail J-head Bridgeport base so they could use the table to adjust the block below the boring bar with some amount of precision. I don't think the head is easily removable from the Van Norman mill. Last edited by rotorwrench; 03-28-2015 at 05:45 PM.

03-28-2015, 02:08 PM	#8
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Van Norman Mill I think you would be better with a boring bar machine do one at a time. When they were done in the day Ford did 4 cylinders at a time in one shot. And for boring main bearing I think the spindle would bound around to much. Does it have a 3" or 4" spindle. Last edited by George/Maine; 03-28-2015 at 02:34 PM.

03-28-2015, 03:05 PM	#9
34fordy Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Fort dodge, Iowa Posts: 821	Re: Van Norman Mill I believe that you are getting good advice--I had opportunity to use a mill like the one you are looking at for a number of years--A very good machine built in the late 50's or early 60's--I still own a small mill and a lathe-- Although these machines had very close tolerances at one time, they now have wear in different places--This affects the accuracy greatly--If you know your machine well you make adjustments, and sometimes in the middle of a cut--I do not think you would want to do this boring a cylinder- It is nice to have an older milling machine for doing many things, but if I had a specific job in mind like boring engine blocks I would buy a machine that was more specific to the intended task--I have never bought any used machine that did not have a few surprises--Parts for a 60 year old mill can be very hard to locate and very expensive--I wish you luck whatever you do--

03-28-2015, 08:04 PM	#10
Heard Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Florida Posts: 582	Re: Van Norman Mill One other thing as a side note...and this has no bearing on using a Van Norman for boring, but if you want a Van Norman for general milling work, make sure you get one with a 'Q' in the model number. Otherwise, it will NOT have a quill. __________________ Do I look like I have a plan B?

03-29-2015, 07:39 AM	#11
big job Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Dighton, Mass Posts: 1,230	Re: Van Norman Mill Just my thoughts, of course the price & being available. As fate always has it- the perfect mill priced right is always on the other side of the planet. wonder if you have measured the quill travel and the Z travel for your needs? I dont know because here (E coast) is Bridgeport country cause they were built here and just about 8 out of 10 shops, there's a Bridgeport in there somewhere. Myself I never saw a Van Norman in the flesh but the tests of time says they are right up there. I can only say 'a mill is better than no mill' that will do for now or a few yrs or maybe the right one will come in time. I fall into the 2% got the only one around here, a big ass 10x52 Cincinnati that has a big throat and table capacity all power feed, but there is good and bad too. Its like, too bad= mills were thrown in a pot, stirred up and the perfect mill created; aint gonna happen with manual mills which we are talking about. what can I say: think its a good start for you.. me talkin out loud again> right or wrong< sam