Electrical Prob, Lights, Halogen, Battery ALL FIXED 2/25/13 UPDATE

[msmaron]

As many of you know i drive daily...well here is the situation, Car drives great and i drive with a NU Rex High Volt Alternator that I bought about 5 years ago. and running a 6 volt car. BUT...lets talk lights and turn signals. I use the Turnswitch.com signals, a brain box that controls my turn signals (cowl lights are used) tail lights and 3rd stop light. Here is the problem. When I turn on my signals I am fine, PROVIDING the car is dropping in RPM's, seems when ever i increase the RPM of the car and accelerate they go off instantly, no matter when, and if i am driving at a high rate of speed and accelerate they go off instantly and sometimes dont come on at all. They also will not go on if I am accelerating the car. Have had the box replaced and checked by the Turn signal company now 2 times and all is okay with their unit, I have also blown over a dozen bulbs on HIGH beam. 32/50 bulbs from Brattons. If i drive with the high beams on (Which I like to do as i do a lot of night driving) and accelerate I will end up blowing the Bright bulbs and Halogen get very very expensive. (been through 6 now) I now use only the 32/32 and i am fine weather bright or dim.
I have already to date:
re-wired all the lights to check for open shorts, bad grounds etc, changed all headlight sockets, re-solder wires etc. cleaned all grounds and checked for any faults in wires or grounds. Battery is fine, i also use a power cut out.
I am getting what i think is a power surge that is cancelling and re setting the turn signals and blowing the bulbs. What i have been told is that maybe the built in regulator (cutout) in the alternator may have gone bad and hence the surge that blows all when accelerating the car.
Need some real suggestions here from the elec guru's out there please..
12/12/12 Have changed to a NEW NU-REX Alternator and THE SAME Problems!!!! Arggggg What do you all think now?????


2/25/13 UPDATE AND FIXED

Well here we go:

First let me thank everyone who helped me with this project. I especially want to thanks Paul Shimm (P.S.) and Mike Keating (mike K)for their effortless work in working with me...

Mike K setup a a complete voltage questioner for me. (see Attatched)



Then of course there was a batter problem that DID in fact tie into the entire problem.
One of the first things that was done was to send the alternator back to NUREX to be looked it. Bob opened it and all looked fine..BUT he did notice that the pully was totally BLUED from extreme heat of spinning and NOT making contact, he informed me of course that would cause spiking and problems. He also stated to "BLUE" the pulley it had to run at extreme speed and cause extreme friction. I immediately Changed belts and results were still negative. argggggg what was discovered was 2 things.
A. the alternator was running at 7.65v and as high at 7.9v, hence the battery boil out and bulb BLOW...the constant High beam halogen 27.00 bulb blow to the tune of 7 last year....$$$$$$.
B. The amount of "Noise" from the components was causing the turn signals to shut down.
c. Consideration was taken in to effect that I run 55wt Halogens, 55wt Halogen Headlights, Turn Signal Box, and I drive approx 8500+ a year.

CORRECTIONS. and this will be I am sure discussed here in more specifics but this was what was done:
A. NEW additional ground cable was connected from the positive side of the batter to the transmission case
B. All nuts and bolts EVERYWHERE on the car were tightened for ground,. All were cleaned and checked for rust and or paint and if so cleaned and replaced.
C. Good lock washers were used on areas such as headlight bar, bumper bars ect to great a better ground to the frame
D. On the Turnsignal box 5-CAPACITORS were installed



E. Open and Tighten all areas of the Fog lights connectors

F. NEW Delco 122 CS 50Amp Alternator with a SET POINT of 7.35 MAXv. Including a built in tem comp, low turn on, This will AVOID that high spike to pop the halogens and spike the turn signals and Avoid BATTERY Boil out on the 95 degree days. This was one of the main problems was the output of the alternator and the boiling of the battery as it reached a 7.65+ and up to 7.9

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321074098202...84.m1497.l2649
along with this a NEW COGGED belt is being used
This has been corrected now. My initial test of driving have been 100% PERFECT including driving with ALL the lights on at 50+MPG and using the turn signals, and flashers with out ANY interruption at all.
Thank you all again for your suggestions and assistance, a great learning curve was accomplished here and i do hope that this post helps others

Mark

[1931 flamingo]

Great to hear! ! ! Do you have a pic of the belt, PN, and where obtained??
Paul in CT

[msmaron]

Paul let me get it for you....

[steve s]

Thanks for the detailed report. Do I understand correctly that the problem was the voltage regulator was set for too high voltage?

Steve

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by steve s

Thanks for the detailed report. Do I understand correctly that the problem was the voltage regulator was set for too high voltage?

Steve

NOT at all and I have no idea where you got that from...Read it over again....

[James G.]

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a more concise summary of problem vs solution would be extremely helpful! That was a good job troubleshooting and documenting.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by msmaron

NOT at all and I have no idea where you got that from...Read it over again....

F. NEW Delco 122 CS 50Amp Alternator with a SET POINT of 7.35 MAXv. Including a built in tem comp, low turn on, This will AVOID that high spike to pop the halogens and spike the turn signals and Avoid BATTERY Boil out on the 95 degree days. This was one of the main problems was the output of the alternator and the boiling of the battery as it reached a 7.65+ and up to 7.9


Mark,
I don't know how else to read the above part of your report.
Steve

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by steve s

Thanks for the detailed report. Do I understand correctly that the problem was the voltage regulator was set for too high voltage?

Steve

Originally Posted by steve s

F. NEW Delco 122 CS 50Amp Alternator with a SET POINT of 7.35 MAXv. Including a built in tem comp, low turn on, This will AVOID that high spike to pop the halogens and spike the turn signals and Avoid BATTERY Boil out on the 95 degree days. This was one of the main problems was the output of the alternator and the boiling of the battery as it reached a 7.65+ and up to 7.9


Mark,
I don't know how else to read the above part of your report.
Steve

Steve....i don't see anything where i wrote about a voltage regulator or even mentioned one. BUT assuming the inside unit was a fault, that i do not know, however when NU REX opened and check all was 100% Fine, just the blueig issue i mention. I mentioned the problems and the fix of them. Ground, Alt, Fan Belt etc....i

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by James G.

a more concise summary of problem vs solution would be extremely helpful! That was a good job troubleshooting and documenting.

James difficult to determine that but as you can see, there were various situations that created the problem, alternator spiking, fan belt, grounding...this was not a single problem at all, there was also the noise factor hence the need for the capacitors. IF i had to narrow it down i would have to say:

1. Alternator voltage TOO High
2. Water Battery boiled its self to death
3. Fan belt NOT Making contact
4. Noise from Engine
5. Fan belt.

Hope that helps a bit more

mark

[Brentwood Bob]

add: 6. poor ground. bob

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob

add: 6. poor ground. bob

Disagree.. the grounds were all fine.. I did add an additional for a "Stronger" ground with my other components BUT the original ground was fine.

[Brentwood Bob]

I will reread your report. Seems like you are running alot of electronics. Bob

[steve s]

F. NEW Delco 122 CS 50Amp Alternator with a SET POINT of 7.35 MAXv. Including a built in tem comp, low turn on, This will AVOID that high spike to pop the halogens and spike the turn signals and Avoid BATTERY Boil out on the 95 degree days. This was one of the main problems was the output of the alternator and the boiling of the battery as it reached a 7.65+ and up to 7.9

Originally Posted by msmaron

Steve....i don't see anything where i wrote about a voltage regulator or even mentioned one. BUT assuming the inside unit was a fault, that i do not know, however when NU REX opened and check all was 100% Fine, just the blueig issue i mention. I mentioned the problems and the fix of them. Ground, Alt, Fan Belt etc....i

Mark,
I don't mean to be dense or make a big deal of this; I'm just trying to understand exactly what all was done--it's an interesting case that may be helpful to many others.

It sounds like you got a new alternator even though the NU-Rex checked out ok. True?

It also sounds like the new alternator did a better job of regulating the output voltage so as not to go over 7.35 V. True?

If the above two statements are true, I think that means that the new alternator must have had a more effective internal voltage regulator, which was my initial inference from what you said. If the two statements are not true, I'm mystified how the new setpoint of 7.35 V was accomplished without at least changing the voltage regulator; I may be wrong but as far as I know the regulators are factory set and not adjustable.

Thanks.
Steve

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by steve s

F. NEW Delco 122 CS 50Amp Alternator with a SET POINT of 7.35 MAXv. Including a built in tem comp, low turn on, This will AVOID that high spike to pop the halogens and spike the turn signals and Avoid BATTERY Boil out on the 95 degree days. This was one of the main problems was the output of the alternator and the boiling of the battery as it reached a 7.65+ and up to 7.9




Mark,
I don't mean to be dense or make a big deal of this; I'm just trying to understand exactly what all was done--it's an interesting case that may be helpful to many others.

Steve I am here to help any way i can!! and i agree that is why i posted it.

It sounds like you got a new alternator even though the NU-Rex checked out ok. True?

YES

It also sounds like the new alternator did a better job of regulating the output voltage so as not to go over 7.35 V. True?

YES and very important also

If the above two statements are true, I think that means that the new alternator must have had a more effective internal voltage regulator, which was my initial inference from what you said. If the two statements are not true, I'm mystified how the new setpoint of 7.35 V was accomplished without at least changing the voltage regulator; I may be wrong but as far as I know the regulators are factory set and not adjustable.

YES true in that sense...I do not know the technical information on the alternator other that what i mentioned but i do know that the NU REX if i remember correctly is set at 7.4v + or - .4.. which we found was way to high and contributed to the batter boil over and the constant increase in voltage that was blowing the halogens. The only way i did find this was from the tests that were done, you can see the chart at the top and read the information and what i found. It was then i pulled the battery and found this: A boiled out battery, that helped narrow the problem down right way and EXPLAIN why the high voltage and spiking to keep the battery charged.

I should also note that i have changed to an OPTIMA 6v battery also, which has made a great difference to me so far.

Does that help more Steve

[steve s]

Yes, thanks for your patience and time reporting this, and thanks to Mike and Paul for their part in the saga.

The take home lesson for me is to check the voltage regulation on your Delco 10 Si one-wire 6V alternator conversions. Even though you didn't use the words "voltage regulator," I think your first alternator's voltage regulator was responsible for the too-high voltage output that was at the heart of your trouble. That's why the battery was trashed, which then exacerbated things. I'm not sure but I'm doubting that the belt was that big a player, as much as NuRex might like it to have been.

I'd be interested in what Mike makes of your electrical noise problem. Bad contact surfaces inside the alternator? Spikes caused by the regulator fighting to stabilize a trashed battery? Belt slipping? Would be interesting to see if your extra capacitors are still needed with the new alternator.

I'm surprised that NuRex is not on top of this problem, and wonder how much variation there may be in the rebuilds they sell. I understand that there are numerous variations on the internal voltage regulator for the 10-Si. There are a huge number of NuRex alternators out there, and this is the first such problem I've heard of--even though Mike suggests that it's to be expected. We have been running one on my mom's '30 coupe for 20 years with no problem, but it's only driven occasionally--which Mike indicates might save it.

Where did you get the new alternator?

Thanks, again.

Steve

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by steve s

We have been running one on my mom's '30 coupe for 20 years with no problem, but it's only driven occasionally--which Mike indicates might save it.

Where did you get the new alternator?

Thanks, again.

Steve

Yes keep in mind that i have never heard of others having this problem with Nu REX and I ran one for 3 years with no problems either, BUT did not have this turnsignal system and 2 sets of halogens. The alternator was from this ebay link:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321074098202...84.m1497.l2649
If it is sold,. he ALWAYS has them and here is some more info from Mike K.in a note to me:

Without getting too technical the internal solid-state voltage regulator used in your 6V+ CS121 alternator (NEW) is designed with features not found in any 6V 10SI alternator regulator. One of those features is temperature compensation. Basically it works like this: The set point actually floats up and down a little. When the regulator inside the alternator is stone-cold, sitting overnight, the voltage set point will be a few tenths higher than the advertised or design set point. This is to quickly 'recover' the small battery charge loss from starting the engine. As the internals of the alternator warm, usually over a time period of about 10-15 minutes, the set voltage tapers down to the design set point. If the internals of the alternator approach 200F, either from excessive electrical load or high under-hood summer temps, the set point falls a few tenths. That does two things. 1) It keeps you from overcharging a hot battery. 2) It reduces the actual amperage draw (via Ohm's law) possibly saving the alternator from damage.

How it works: In the two-resistor voltage divider that is used for output reference one of the resistors is a PTC device. PTC = Positive Temperature Coefficient. In other words, it changes resistance with temperature, shifting the regulator output set point up/down. That adds a whopping ten cents to manufacturing cost, so if you make a million aftermarket regulators you loose $100,000!

More stuff you probably didn't want to know. . .

The lower cut-in speed of CS121 alternators is because that regulator design takes a direct full wave AC input from from the field. All 10SI regulators need a diode rectified DC input. Relax, I'm not even going to try to decipher that. Your new alternator has it, a good thing.

Your new alternator (all CS121's) use avalanche diodes, not straight rectifier diodes. Rectifier diodes blow quickly from voltage spikes. Avalanche diodes can take a 20,000V jolt from an ignition coil and still be OK. Greatly increased reliability.

Does it all make sense Steve???

[steve s]

Makes sense, and if it didn't, I would believe Mike anyhow. I wasn't aware of avalanche diodes.

Steve

[Brentwood Bob]

not the extra ground cable after all. Bob