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Old 09-21-2012, 08:12 AM   #41
Walt Dupont--Me.
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

If that block winds up being good after cleaning you can built it alot cheaper than 5K. You sound like a young fellow that reallly likes to work on old engines. This is good experance for you, It will alway be a good hobby. One example, there is alot of 8BA crankshafts laying around. They will bolt right in that 40 block and use the 8BA rods and you can use the single locking lip rod bearings (just like the sbc ones that you are use to) thay are alot cheaper than the full floating bearings in the 40. Also use the 8BA valve train, alot easier than the mushroom ones. If you do alot of the work yourself you can built that engine for less that 2K. When you have any question just ask on the barn. We'll help you right through it. Walt
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:37 PM   #42
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

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Originally Posted by Walt Dupont--Me. View Post
If that block winds up being good after cleaning you can built it alot cheaper than 5K. You sound like a young fellow that reallly likes to work on old engines. This is good experance for you, It will alway be a good hobby. One example, there is alot of 8BA crankshafts laying around. They will bolt right in that 40 block and use the 8BA rods and you can use the single locking lip rod bearings (just like the sbc ones that you are use to) thay are alot cheaper than the full floating bearings in the 40. Also use the 8BA valve train, alot easier than the mushroom ones. If you do alot of the work yourself you can built that engine for less that 2K. When you have any question just ask on the barn. We'll help you right through it. Walt
Now you're speakin' my language! I plan on doing as much as I possibly can by myself, and chances are if I cant do it myself I wont be doing it. That does sound like the best way to go... and I may know where there are a few of those engines laying around. I still have to get the 2 remaining rod caps and 2 main caps off and pull the crank out. I'm having a little trouble getting them off but I'll get it.

I can't thank you guys enough for helping me through this, I'm sure I would have done a lot more harm than good if I didn't get the info I needed from here. I'll keep posting as I get it apart or as I have any questions.

And just to clear it up... I wash my hands enough to get them nice and clean!
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:00 PM   #43
Bruce Lancaster
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

Flatheads do not have to be super expensive if you speak scrounge. Most nowadays are being built by fuirly well-heeled older rodders who go deluxe on everything and who patranize specialists...you can doityourself with the local machinest, a bit of instruction to him, and your own sweat.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:11 PM   #44
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

I pulled the crank from a heavily siezed motor and the two most inaccesible nuts had to be tackled with 3 wrenches, each one was able to turn the nut a fraction, I just kept using each one in turn until I got them off.

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Old 09-24-2012, 02:30 PM   #45
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

Yeah Bruce Id go along with that ,
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Flatheads do not have to be super expensive if you speak scrounge. Most nowadays are being built by fuirly well-heeled older rodders who go deluxe on everything and who patranize specialists...you can doityourself with the local machinest, a bit of instruction to him, and your own sweat.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:51 PM   #46
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My take...sleeves would be do-it-yourself, bore job and crank turn totally normal jobs for any auto shop. If local machinest is under 70 years old, you will need to fully understand your chosen valve set and explain it or find a friend with a grinder and do it yourself. Everything is readily available and your original hard seats will likely clean right up.
We can hope your rods will come out intact and prove to be OK...
You can sleeve to standard 221 or bore to standard 3 3/16...both cheap because you will be the only customer around who can use those standard pistons. Doesn't Joblot always have standard 8BA piston and ring sets cheap still??
The money you save plus the kids' college funf and anything you salvage from the divorce this engine will initiate can be used to bu a Merc Crank...255 time. Or if you find one with enough meat 4 1/8...
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:18 PM   #47
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

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I pulled the crank from a heavily siezed motor and the two most inaccesible nuts had to be tackled with 3 wrenches, each one was able to turn the nut a fraction, I just kept using each one in turn until I got them off.

Mart.
I've had to use a small chisel and carefully split some nuts.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:13 PM   #48
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

As far as the 2 nuts that I had trouble getting, I just heated a POS harbor freight wrench with a torch and bent it so I could reach in there and turn them.

I still have made no more progress since my last post. Lets face it, this isnt going to be an over the top build by and means, for those of you who didnt know I'm 18 and I'm not one of those brats who gets everything handed to them, hell I'm not even allowed to put this in the garage. I know an old timer in the next town over who rebuilds and hops up 4 bangers (A and B). I'll have to talk to him next time I see him and see if he has any flathead knowledge or if he would be willing to lend me a hand or teach me a little. I have come to the realization that I will probably not have the money to have a machine even look at this. So I wont be holding my breathe that this will be machined. I do know where there is another 24 stud engine which is WAY better than this one but money is tight for me. I thought about that one but I still want to take this one apart. Alright enough of my babbling for the night.

As always everyone thanks for the responses.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:53 PM   #49
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

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Flatheads do not have to be super expensive if you speak scrounge. Most nowadays are being built by fuirly well-heeled older rodders who go deluxe on everything and who patranize specialists...you can doityourself with the local machinest, a bit of instruction to him, and your own sweat.

Let's put that into perspective. I'm doing all of the porting and assembly myself and have stumbled on to really good deals and swapped for some neat parts.

All said and done, the machine work alone will end up costing me $1,200.

Now add up the other parts (not a complete list)
Heads $600 (you don't necessarily need them, but I bought a set from Navarro while he was still alive and running his company)
Pistons $350 (Ross forged)
Potvin cam $140
NOS rods $150
Hi-flow SBC valves $80.00
Johnson lifters resurfaced $40.00
Bearings $50
4" crank $100 + $60 machine work (found that first)
so forth and so on.

You get the picture. But, my 276 c.i. motor will have tons of bling, have some neat ol parts on it, Weber aluminum flywheel, etc.

Still cooler than a SBC, but definitely not cheaper!
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:41 PM   #50
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

What everyone seems to be missing here is that this is a '39-'40 Mercury/Ford Truck motor which was 239 to begin with. This block has the thick cylinder walls which will take up to a 3-3/8 bore if you're lucky.
Tear it down and have it cleaned and magnafluxed to see if it's worth your time and money. These blocks are getting harder to find.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:35 AM   #51
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

Maybe so! I was seeing that central hole as a trapezoid...on looking now, it could well be round with some visual distortion from crud and grainy image!
Slap a ruler on there quick...I suspect Z is correct and you have a 99!
On the costs...forget externals like heads and manifold if you are broke. That stuff can be added later when you recover from first steps or hit lucky in your scrounging.
Bore and valve work is about the same as anything, if you scrounge and swap sleeves yourself cheaper. Pistons...poor people don't use Ross, and Joblot traditionally has deals on the standard pistons you can use if you replace sleeves...
Bearings and such cost more than SBC, rods may turn out ready to clean and re-use or turn out to be another expense...carefully split good rebuild versus parts that can be swapped later, think about the Merc crank, a somewhat pricey beneficial change that you can't really do later...
Now MEASURE THAT BORE WITH A RULER! I am thinking Zaemo saw that middle hole more clearly than I did and you have a 99, a big upgrade!
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:48 AM   #52
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

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Maybe so! I was seeing that central hole as a trapezoid...on looking now, it could well be round with some visual distortion from crud and grainy image!
Slap a ruler on there quick...I suspect Z is correct and you have a 99!
On the costs...forget externals like heads and manifold if you are broke. That stuff can be added later when you recover from first steps or hit lucky in your scrounging.
Bore and valve work is about the same as anything, if you scrounge and swap sleeves yourself cheaper. Pistons...poor people don't use Ross, and Joblot traditionally has deals on the standard pistons you can use if you replace sleeves...
Bearings and such cost more than SBC, rods may turn out ready to clean and re-use or turn out to be another expense...carefully split good rebuild versus parts that can be swapped later, think about the Merc crank, a somewhat pricey beneficial change that you can't really do later...
Now MEASURE THAT BORE WITH A RULER! I am thinking Zaemo saw that middle hole more clearly than I did and you have a 99, a big upgrade!
Bruce:

I agree with almost everything you say: What I don't is pistons. Like valve and machine work, this is a place a I wouldn't go cheap.

Also, it gives you some additional options later down the line. Let's say you wanted to add a blower. Long shot, but who knows. I know I wouldn't tear down a running motor to install new pistons.

Cast pistons are dicey for this application. You can split the diff., get those hypereuthentic (sp??) pistons. Egge and Speedway sell them. They are stronger than cast, but not as strong as a forged and they are priced in between.

If it is a 99 block, you don't want to ruin it by using cheap parts.

Yes, guys have run cast pistons from the day the internal combution engine was created. Doesn't always mean it was the best choice.

It's your money and spend it as you see fit, but for an extra $100 or so dollars, I'd go with Ross pistons. Just my opinion.

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 09-25-2012 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 09-25-2012, 03:56 PM   #53
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

Re: cylinder head cost - $600 for cast aluminum after market ones (your choice of brands) or $150 for a pair of good EAB Ford heads. With an overbored block, probably looking at nearly 8:1 CR. With a bore and 4" stroke, 8.5:1 or more. Just a thought.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:58 PM   #54
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

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Re: cylinder head cost - $600 for cast aluminum after market ones (your choice of brands) or $150 for a pair of good EAB Ford heads. With an overbored block, probably looking at nearly 8:1 CR. With a bore and 4" stroke, 8.5:1 or more. Just a thought.
Henry: Without question one can go with stock Ford heads and do just fine. Just adding some real world costs for comparison sake.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:40 PM   #55
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

Bruce that hole is round, and I've done a bit of googling since I checked the thread and saw that it may be a 99 block. I'm not sure if there are anymore tell tail signs of numbers I should look for to be sure it is a 99, heck I'm not even sure the significance of a 99. Other than it is a 239 rather than a 221. I'm pretty sure Zaemo is correct based on everything I've looked at in my little bit of digging
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:19 PM   #56
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

Tim - Good comparison.

Interesting coincidence:I put forged Ross pistons in the engine in my avitar for the exact reason you mentioned. Two great minds. . . . . . . . .
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:38 PM   #57
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

Looks like a 39-40 with the exhaust bosses sticking proud of the side of the block. Hard to tell from the pictures.
Google "The Evolution of the Flathead" by Fred Mills. It's great reading for learning about these.
This was the sought after block before the war and sometime after. Ford made the casting thicker in the cylinder walls in order to boost the HP for their premium line of Mercury passenger cars.
I'm getting a '39 block instead of a 59AB for it's historical value. The 59AB being 46-48. The "99" block will fit the era of pre or just post war for my 32 Roadster build. Most every flathead hot rod back in the day claimed to be sporting a Hopped up '39 Merc Engine. Even after the war, average Joe's wouldn't have had access to a brand new 46-48 motor.
If you don't car about that and the block is cracked, go get a nice 59AB. They're not hard to find and no less attractive.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:14 AM   #58
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

If round, it should be a 99. MOST but not all have "99" stamped in 1/4" characters at RF of manifold surface, but really just measure the bore with a ruler. Also. 99 upper cylinder walls are insanely thick...you can check this where the trapezoid hole is. Your engine just started looking a lot better!
Good cast pistons are fine for stock and for normal mildly rodded street engines...and as with cast cranks, there are advantages over the forged if you are not approaching the conditions that break them! Cast pistons can be fit tighter and if decently designed generally conform better to proper shape as they heat up. Thus the run quieter and wear out more slowly...a street engine with no blower is not going to break them unless something really bad is going on like detonation, which will kill anything. And of course if anything bad is happening, it will happen faster and more violently with a blower...
The current Ross is however much superior in design and shape over early fifties cast pistons, which had no design provisions for uneven expansion and required huge clearances...this stuff has been really scienced out for 350 Chevies but I think not nearly as well for flatheads.
99's were often preferred for the upper tier of dragster and Bonneville flatheads, supposedly, even after the 59 became common.

Last edited by Bruce Lancaster; 09-26-2012 at 10:16 AM. Reason: Beter spelgn
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:23 AM   #59
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

Did you bite off more than you can chew?

Yes, probably.

Lets be honest. You were given a flathead. It is not in great condition. Although it is theoretically rebuildable it probably is not worth you rebuilding it, unless you have a vehicle ready and waiting for it.

It will be a valuable experience for you just getting good hands on time with that old lump.

Pull it apart. Work out what you have.

But then work out what you want.

It may be that just stashing all those parts will do for now. If the flathead bug has bit, you will stumble across other parts or a complete car, and that stash of parts will come in handy.

To be realistic, I would not advise an 18YO kid to start spending thousands of dollars fixing up an engine.

It's easy to spend other peoples money while tapping away on a keyboard, but in your first post you say you will benefit from just tearing it down, and I think you need to take that as a first step, and not really consider building it back into a running engine.

Just my opinion, other peoples opinion may vary.

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Old 09-26-2012, 03:13 PM   #60
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Default Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

I go along with what Mart has said. Your first learning experience on a Flathead ,is about how truly nasty the insides can be. After 50 years away from the old L head,I built another one. Talk about an addiction. Good luck !!
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