Master Cylinder Bracket

[Ian1932]

I made 2 thinking one would be nicer but they both look good. If anyone wants to try the the other let me know. I think it will work nice. All i need to do now is weld a lever on the brake pedal. Does anyone know how far the brake pedal will be from the back of the hole where the foot pad mounts to the lower sheet metal of the firewall? Im trying to find a some what of the neutral position of the pedal so i weld the lever in a good spot. I can the made final adjustments with the linkage i think.

[qmdv]

Originally Posted by Ian1932

I made 2 thinking one would be nicer but they both look good. If anyone wants to try the the other let me know. I think it will work nice. All i need to do now is weld a lever on the brake pedal. Does anyone know how far the brake pedal will be from the back of the hole where the foot pad mounts to the lower sheet metal of the firewall? Im trying to find a some what of the neutral position of the pedal so i weld the lever in a good spot. I can the made final adjustments with the linkage i think.

Wish I had done mine that way

[PeteVS]

I would say to weld the new lever to the pedal boss pretty much 180º from the old position. (I made up a new pedal out of 3/8" steel plate for my brother's '32 just 'cause I don't trust a weld in that piece.)

[Bored&Stroked]

You might want to checkout what Early Ford V8 Garage - supplies. I like Dennis Lacy's approach of the creation of a new clutch/brake pedal shaft (longer than stock), which he then hangs a pivot arm off of. His kit requires NO welding on your original pedals and also tucks the master cylinder up a bit higher than yours does. I highly recommend their products - are about the best engineered, highest quality stuff you can buy - period. Also, he is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys on our early Ford hydraulic brakes and conversions:

http://www.earlyv8garage.net/

I installed his complete kit on my 32 Cabriolet - didn't have to drill a single hole, didn't have to weld on anything . . . just perfection from one end to the other.

[Ian1932]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

You might want to checkout what Early Ford V8 Garage - supplies. I like Dennis Lacy's approach of the creation of a new clutch/brake pedal shaft (longer than stock), which he then hangs a pivot arm off of. His kit requires NO welding on your original pedals and also tucks the master cylinder up a bit higher than yours does. I highly recommend their products - are about the best engineered, highest quality stuff you can buy - period. Also, he is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys on our early Ford hydraulic brakes and conversions:

http://www.earlyv8garage.net/

I installed his complete kit on my 32 Cabriolet - didn't have to drill a single hole, didn't have to weld on anything . . . just perfection from one end to the other.

How much did it cost? Thanks

[Bored&Stroked]

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Originally Posted by Ian1932

How much did it cost? Thanks

They have a whole range of parts and services related to putting hydraulic brakes on a 32 - 34 Ford. Given the wide range of options and associated prices, the best thing is to contract Dennis Lacy - he can walk you through the many ways he can support a project. Also, he has complete price lists - which he'll probably send you a paper copy.

Good luck!

[DavidG]

Slick set up; well done!

[glennpm]

The bracket fab looks good but you have the master cylinder too low. You want to get the push rod as close to the bottom of the frame as possible so that your lever arm ratio to actuating arm is as high as possible. Stock ratios are around 6 but even with the rod close to the frame, you can't get that, probably around 4+.


Glenn

[Ian1932]

Originally Posted by glennpm

The bracket fab looks good but you have the master cylinder too low. You want to get the push rod as close to the bottom of the frame as possible so that your lever arm ratio to actuating arm is as high as possible. Stock ratios are around 6 but even with the rod close to the frame, you can't get that, probably around 4+.


Glenn

Glenn, what will this do? Will it make the pedal travel to far? I saw several pics of the same master mounted in the same place. I believe you i just dont understand what will happen. Thanks for your input!

[V8COOPMAN]

Glenn is correct above in Post #8. You must maintain the pedal arm vs pushrod lever LENGTH ratio at something like 6 to 1 or even higher numerically (like 7 to 1) because anything less will make it nearly impossible to apply enough force to the pedal to get the car stopped. One other factor to consider...the pushrod that pushes on the M/C piston should push straight-into, or parallel with piston travel. If the pushrod pushes on the piston at an angle, the hydraulic seal at rear of M/C will end-up damaged (and leaking) in very short order. DD

[Ian1932]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Glenn is correct above in Post #8. You must maintain the pedal arm vs pushrod lever LENGTH ratio at something like 6 to 1 or even higher numerically (like 7 to 1) because anything less will make it nearly impossible to apply enough force to the pedal to get the car stopped. One other factor to consider...the pushrod that pushes on the M/C piston should push straight-into, or parallel with piston travel. If the pushrod pushes on the piston at an angle, the hydraulic seal at rear of M/C will end-up damaged (and leaking) in very short order. DD

Crap...I guess i can cut it apart and move up the MC mounting plate. The bracket i made is long enough to where the MC can sorta go up behind the cross member a little bit.

[V8COOPMAN]

Ian...The bracket you made looked beautiful, "workmanship-wise". But physics is physics, and stuff needs to be dimensionally and geographically compatible. It would be great if you could get the M/C directly behind, and in line with the pushrod hole in the un-altered pedal lever. DD

[V8COOPMAN]

Ian...Before you go any farther, click on the link below, scroll down a little and look at the pictures. This M/C location looks fairly close to yours. The '32 in the pictures belongs to Dennis Lacy of The Early V8 Garage. Dennis and his dad engineer, build and sell these hydraulic brake conversion kits THAT WORK. Maybe you can get some ideas from the many detailed pictures of Dennis' own personal truck with their product installed. Maybe it's your pedal location that makes your bracket/situation look questionable. Just MAYBE, you're on the right track and I just can't see it from the limited pictures you've posted. Check out the link BELOW! DD


https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...#post-11039172

[glennpm]

Hi,


Yes, its all about mechanical advantage by having a longer lever, same as grabbing a breaker bar when you racket wrench just doesn't do it ;-)

I posted this link to a pickup project that Dennis Lacy posted on the HAMB a couple of years ago. I came across this a week or so back and posted in response to your other thread on master cylinder mounting. It is a great post he made.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...17&postcount=8

In Dennis kit and the link in the above message, you'll note that his brake lever arm is long so he uses a smaller bore master cylinder. The travel of your foot pedal will be greater but much easier to brake.

Here are a couple of useful links I just found on Google:

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/...der-bore-size/

https://www.markwilliams.com/braketech.html

I'd either buy Dennis' kit or move your master cylinder up. Maybe look into a 7/8" bore cylinder too although I have a 4-1/3 ratio and have no problem pushing the pedal or in the braking action.

Hey, better to find this out now instead of being disappointed later not counting the rework.

Glenn

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Hi,


Yes, its all about mechanical advantage by having a longer lever.....

I'd either buy Dennis' kit or move your master cylinder up. Maybe look into a 7/8" bore cylinder too although I have a 4-1/3 ratio and have no problem pushing the pedal or in the braking action.

Glenn

A couple of things, Glenn....you obviously DO know something about brake theory and physics. But, to be sure that Ian or anyone else is on the same page, there's BETTER mechanical advantage when the FOOT lever is longer, and/or the M/C rod actuating lever is SHORTER.


And yes, going with a SMALLER bore M/C will lessen the necessary pedal effort, but the pedal will need to stroke farther, and it's possible (when decreasing the bore of the M/C) to reach a point that there is not enough stroke in the M/C to supply the volume of fluid needed to fully apply the brakes. Just some things to be aware of. DD

[glennpm]

Yes, I completely agree with you. Getting the highest ratio of (brake arm length)/(actuating lever length) is most important.

Glenn

[Bored&Stroked]

So . . . after all this discussion . . . I still say . . . talk to Dennis Lacy. You'll be glad you did. Why - because it ALL matters . . . the mechanical ratios, the master cylinder bore size, the wheel cylinder sizes, the design fo the brake systems, etc..

It is always about the combination of parts - not any one single part.

[Ian1932]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

So . . . after all this discussion . . . I still say . . . talk to Dennis Lacy. You'll be glad you did. Why - because it ALL matters . . . the mechanical ratios, the master cylinder bore size, the wheel cylinder sizes, the design fo the brake systems, etc..

It is always about the combination of parts - not any one single part.

Trust me, i would to love to buy that setup. Im sure its at-least $1000. I just dont have the money right now to spend. If i did spend it, it would be irresponsible of me. Im going to mess around and see if i can make it work...Im sure those guys have an excellent product though, this i dont doubt!

[Ian1932]

Genn & V8COOPMAN, I cut my bracket apart. I just tack welded it back together. I moved the face plate all the way up to where the hex of the MC bolt heads will just rest on the top plate where it mounts to bottom of the frame. This pushes the MC really close to the bottom of the K member. This should be ok right? I moved up about 1-3/8". Thanks for your help! Input is helping me greatly!

[tubman]

Ian, I've been watching this and want to offer my congratulations on your resistance to becoming a "1-800-HOT-RODDER". This hobby has always been about individuals out in their shops, modifying their cars they way they thought best. These days, we have the additional advantage of boards like this that we can come to for advice for sticky situations. I think you have received some good advice here about pedal placement, mechanical advantage etc. In your case, I am of the opinion that this is something that you will be able to handle by yourself, especially with the advice of people who have gone through this before. Go for it.

Oh yeah, the first time I heard "Early V8 Garage" in the context of this thread, one word went through my mind. That word was "Expensive".

[Ian1932]

Originally Posted by tubman

Ian, I've been watching this and want to offer my congratulations on your resistance to becoming a "1-800-HOT-RODDER". This hobby has always been about individuals out in their shops, modifying their cars they way they thought best. These days, we have the additional advantage of boards like this that we can come to for advice for sticky situations. I think you have received some good advice here about pedal placement, mechanical advantage etc. In your case, I am of the opinion that this is something that you will be able to handle by yourself, especially with the advice of people who have gone through this before. Go for it.

Oh yeah, the first time I heard "Early V8 Garage" in the context of this thread, one word went through my mind. That word was "Expensive".

Thanks! I do get a satisfaction out of doing it "myself". It feels get to just make something yourself and it be a success. A lot of tips great ideas on here to learn from. Nothing better than turning chicken poop into chicken soup yourself...Also, surely there are guys on here that have a bunch of money to spend, i am not one of those guys...lol. Thanks for the reassurance!

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by tubman

Oh yeah, the first time I heard "Early V8 Garage" in the context of this thread, one word went through my mind. That word was "Expensive".

Anyone that is familiar with and has followed Dennis and Richard Lacy's creations and methods over the years at the Early V8 Garage has to be impressed with everything they offer, including top-notch advice. Their approach to gettin' these old Fords stopped is actually pretty simplistic, yet accomplished in "top shelf" fashion from start to finish. Although I have no first-hand experience with any of their offerings, I too have heard that their kits are "rather pricey".


You're doing good, Ian. With your obvious drive, your need for accomplishment and your open-minded attitude, you're well on your way toward a "first rate" braking system. DD

[Bored&Stroked]

Just to be clear on my side . . . I'm not telling you to go spend thousands on a complete kit from Early V8 Garage. BUT - you might learn a few things in seeing what he has to offer. You might buy some parts from him, make some of your own, etc.. The exploration can be worth the time - as my guess is that you'll learn something of value and it might change your design. That's all . . .

[Ian1932]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Just to be clear on my side . . . I'm not telling you to go spend thousands on a complete kit from Early V8 Garage. BUT - you might learn a few things in seeing what he has to offer. You might buy some parts from him, make some of your own, etc.. The exploration can be worth the time - as my guess is that you'll learn something of value and it might change your design. That's all . . .

I understand. I see what your saying. I just feel guilty picking their brains and calling or requesting information without any intentions of buying...Or just getting their info and copying it. I did see a few of their products and they are thought out very nicely! Im sure they put a ton of time and research into their products!

[tubman]

These are my thoughts as well.

[Bored&Stroked]

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Originally Posted by Ian1932

I understand. I see what your saying. I just feel guilty picking their brains and calling or requesting information without any intentions of buying...Or just getting their info and copying it. I did see a few of their products and they are thought out very nicely! Im sure they put a ton of time and research into their products!

That is honorable . . . if you plan to buy nothing from them (appreciate the honesty), then I greatly respect your decision.

After all, us car-guys have been coming up with solutions to problems like this for as long as cars have had wheels - and I much appreciate all the various solutions that we come up to address the problems/challenges of our various builds. If I hadn't had to solve a lot of these problems myself (to not only learn, but also try to keep to a budget) - I wouldn't know a damn thing about these cars!

Keep after it - you're doing great work!
B&S

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Ian1932

I understand. I see what your saying. I just feel guilty picking their brains and calling or requesting information without any intentions of buying...Or just getting their info and copying it. I did see a few of their products and they are thought out very nicely! Im sure they put a ton of time and research into their products!

Ian...You're 90% there with the pedals and pedal bracket that you already have. With those pieces bolted in place, and figuring the dimensions on your newly-modified bracket to place the M/C pushrod just low enough to clear the crossmember, you should be able to calculate the dimensions (YOUR calculations) for a SIMILAR bellcrank and cross-shaft shown in the following picture. I wouldn't feel in the least guilty about going forward with that general idea. DD

[Ian1932]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Ian...You're 90% there with the pedals and pedal bracket that you already have. With those pieces bolted in place, and figuring the dimensions on your newly-modified bracket to place the M/C pushrod just low enough to clear the crossmember, you should be able to calculate the dimensions (YOUR calculations) for a SIMILAR bellcrank and cross-shaft shown in the following picture. I wouldn't feel in the least guilty about going forward with that general idea. DD

Thanks! Im going to weld up my bracket the rest of the way tonight. This weekend ill brainstorm with some pcs of wood and see what happens...I think i can whip something up that will work...Thanks for the help! Everyone else, thanks for your help too!

[glennpm]

Hi Guys,


The new revised bracket in post #19 is still not going to do it. I have an idea that is easier than what I did and will sketch something up this afternoon.


Glenn

[Ian1932]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Hi Guys,


The new revised bracket in post #19 is still not going to do it. I have an idea that is easier than what I did and will sketch something up this afternoon.


Glenn

Glenn, why wont it work? It will be really close to the bottom of the frame...

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by glennpm

The new revised bracket in post #19 is still not going to do it. I have an idea that is easier than what I did and will sketch something up this afternoon.
Glenn

Ian...Glenn is right! This getting way more complicated than necessary. ALL that you need is to fabricate a simple, flat 3/8" plate SIMILAR in concept to the one in this picture. Check-out the other pics for the generic details. Kiss, kiss, KISS! DD

[Ian1932]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Ian...Glenn is right! This getting way more complicated than necessary. ALL that you need is to fabricate a simple, flat 3/8" plate SIMILAR in concept to the one in this picture. Check-out the other pics for the generic details. Kiss, kiss, KISS! DD

Your picture doesnt show up...But whats the difference if its a plate or a bracket?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Ian1932

Your picture doesnt show up...But whats the difference if its a plate or a bracket?

You bring-up an interesting point. I went back and looked at your original pictures. Your bracket is bolted to the lower, horizontal flange on the crossmember. Yes, to bolt it to that surface, a bracket like yours would be necessary. Click that link I sent and go back and study those pictures. He bolted his simple, flat plate directly to the stronger, and probably less-flexible VERTICAL surface on the crossmember. It doesn't get any simpler than a flat plate. When you look at those pictures again, you'll note that one of the M/C attach bolts has a countersunk head where it fits against the flat surface of the crossmember. The thickness of the 3/8" plate makes it possible to countersink for that bolt. Pretty slick set-up! DD

[glennpm]

Okay, here you go:


- This uses (5) existing center-section bolt hole in the vertical section
- Make sure that you allow for a bolt hole, probably 9/16" diameter hole, for the motor steady rod on this side!
- The scheme is similar to Ralph's, https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...34&postcount=3 but note that there is no hole for the steady rod!
- Insert long enough grade 8 bolts front to back
- Tighten and torque the spacer plate with nuts that have the permanent red Loctite on them. Lock washers may be good too. You don't want theses bolts and nuts to be able to turn. This way you can tighten and remove the master cylinder plate during and after the installation. a 3/8" air racket is good here for its "impact" properties. The bolts are buried later so this allows everything to be removed from the back.
- The top two master cylinder bolt heads , especially the inboard one, are going to be right on or just below the center section bottom bump out. This location will give you a level push-rod that clears the front lip of the center section.
- Mount the master cylinder to its plate and then slip over the protruding bolts of the center section and install retaining nuts.
- The plate should be 4" wide in case you decide to switch out to another master cylinder later, like a two bowl type. Many of these only have a two bolt flange on them.


I also want to note that the tightest clearance for the push rod is the clevis for it on the front end where it attaches to the brake pedal MC bracket , a plate welded onto the original brake pedal arm.



Glenn

[glennpm]

PS This is what I did. The 2" X 4" TS has a spacer plate welded on back. The two plate design is very stiff and easier to make.


Glenn

[Ian1932]

Originally Posted by glennpm

PS This is what I did. The 2" X 4" TS has a spacer plate welded on back. The two plate design is very stiff and easier to make.


Glenn

Glenn, will my bracket not work or are you saying its easier to use a plate? You guys are sayin it still wont work, but, not why? The push rod will be really close to cross member? Thanks!

[glennpm]

Ian, if the heads on the nuts are like in my sketch, right at and on the bump for the inboard one, then you're okay. From your pictures or the perspective of it, the rod centerline looks low

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Ian1932

Glenn, will my bracket not work or are you saying its easier to use a plate? You guys are sayin it still wont work, but, not why? The push rod will be really close to cross member? Thanks!

Coop here...Like I tried to say above, your bracket will work if bolted to the bottom, horizontal lip on the crossmember. BUT...there's nothing reinforcing that thin lip and I'm afraid that every time you step on the brake pedal, that lip and your bracket, along with the M/C, are going to flex. A simple, flat plate bolted to the much-more-substantial vertical part of the crossmember ain't gonna flex for nothing! Super nice bracket you built for sure, but a flat plate is a much smarter choice.


NICE drawing, Glenn! DD

[glennpm]

Thanks DD!

[Ian1932]

Ok. Ill try and mess with this over the weekend and see what i can do. Thanks for your input. Not sure exactly what im going to do but ill have figured soon enough...

[Mart]

The one Glennpm is showing looks a lot like the one I made for my 32. I think the use of the box section is a good idea.

Mart.

[Andy]

I am sorry but I did not read all the posts.I am going to address the ratio question.
You want full stroke on the master cylinder plus a little for flex. The total movement on the pedal is say 5 inches and the total stroke of the master cylindr is say 1.25 inches, you need to have a 4 to 1 ratio on the movements. Higher will not move the cylinder far enough and lower will be too stiff of a pedal, The arm for the pedal and the lever to the master cylinder both will move thru the same angle. You would need to have the arm lengths in the 4 to 1 ratio. If the pedal arm is 12 inches, the M/C arm would be 3 inches. Adjust to your dimensions.

[rich b]

^^^^
How does the pedal effort work out with the 4 to 1 ratio compared to the 6.4 to 1 ratio of a '39-'48 juice brake pedal using the same 1-1/16" bore Ford master. Thinking that is why the V-8 garage uses the smaller bore master.

On the other hand my kid has a couple of cars (and has built several more) with the early Ford master mounted so the push rod is just barely below the K member and an ear welded on the stock pedal and while I haven't driven them, they evidently work.

[Andy]

I was just trying to share some thoughts on getting the master cylinder so it is pushed all the way in with full pedal travel. Your dimensions are probably different.

[Charlie Stephens]

I don't think I ever calculated the ratio. I just made sure I had the same ratio that I measured in a '39 pedal assembly. I figured the guys at Ford knew what they were doing.

Charlie Stephens

[Mart]

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That's a neat setup, there, Charlie.

[glennpm]

Nice use of a bellcrank design setup Charlie.


Glenn

[rich b]

Originally Posted by Andy

I was just trying to share some thoughts on getting the master cylinder so it is pushed all the way in with full pedal travel. Your dimensions are probably different.

Your quite right to emphasize the importance of pedal travel and while Ian1932 is working with a single master cylinder here; it is even more important that full pedal travel is available for those that retrofit a dual master cylinder. We have come across several cases where this was not taken into consideration on the install and due to lack of available pedal travel there was no "safety factor" from the use of the dual master.

[V8COOPMAN]

I like this example to help understand what rich b and Andy are talking about. DD

[tubman]

Here's some interesting information. I have a 1999 F150 beater pickup. Being that it has spent its whole life in Minnesota (most of it in the twin cities area) it has some rust problems. It has factory dual circuit brakes with ABS. The brakes on it have always worked flawlessly. A couple of years ago, I blew a rear line that had rusted out. I had barely enough brakes to limp it back to my shop. Last year, I blew a front line. I had no brakes; none, zero. I have inspected and replaced all metal brakes lines and the brake hoses since then. An inspection of the fuel line surprisingly shows very little corrosion.

[Ian1932]

Glenn, That 3" number from the center of the pedal pin to the hole in the lever or to the center of the master push rod, Is this the best? Or do i want to shoot for the smallest lever length possible? Like 2-3/4" or 2-5/8" even? Thanks

[glennpm]

Hi Nick,

The smallest possible, but make sure that the arc swung by your lever length allows clearance between the push rod clevis and the bottom of the center-section front lip also make sure the lever doesn't hit the center-section.

The pictures of my lever with the brake pedal at the top, may help. Make a pattern out of cardboard. Tack the lever on and see how it goes.

Glenn