Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model T (1909-1927)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-20-2020, 08:31 PM   #1
FrankWest
Senior Member
 
FrankWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,863
Default early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

Did Henry Ford ever consider air cooled engines rather than water cooled.
It would seem that air cooled engines would be simpler, but they must run hotter causing more problems.
FrankWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 11:57 PM   #2
redmodelt
Senior Member
 
redmodelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 4,909
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

https://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/...le-x-8-engine/
Yes also Edison was working on an electric car.

https://www.wired.com/2010/06/henry-...mas-edison-ev/
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
redmodelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 01-21-2020, 10:14 AM   #3
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,026
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

Ford made a lot of air cooled engines during the early years for various applications but most never went into production. Ford also made a lot of air cooled Pratt & Whitney aircraft engines during the war under licence.

They put a lot of time into the X8 project before Henry finally threw in the towel on it. The V8 was a lot more practical.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 04:52 PM   #4
Royce P
Senior Member
 
Royce P's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Tulsa OK
Posts: 472
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

Franklin was one of the best selling cars in the days before assembly lines. All of their cars were air cooled. They had a reputation of being trouble free.

Ford built a few prototypes in the early "letter car" days. No telling why, but they remained experiments that were never produced beyond the few experimental examples.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankWest View Post
Did Henry Ford ever consider air cooled engines rather than water cooled.
It would seem that air cooled engines would be simpler, but they must run hotter causing more problems.
__________________
1910 Touring
1914 Touring
1915 Touring
1917 Torpedo Runabout
Royce P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 06:53 PM   #5
FrankWest
Senior Member
 
FrankWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,863
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

You would think that getting rid of the water jacket would make an engine simpler.
But I guess because of the increased heat maybe things wear down faster?
FrankWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 06:55 PM   #6
FrankWest
Senior Member
 
FrankWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,863
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

volkswagon captalized on the idea, wasn't porsche also air cooled?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1933-franklin-olympic.jpg (134.6 KB, 6 views)

Last edited by FrankWest; 01-21-2020 at 07:00 PM. Reason: add photp
FrankWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 07:06 PM   #7
FrankWest
Senior Member
 
FrankWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,863
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

1933 Franklin..I think it was over 3000 dollars in 1933.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1933-franklin-olympic.jpg (134.6 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Franklin.jpg (106.0 KB, 22 views)
FrankWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2020, 09:53 AM   #8
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,176
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

Takes a lot of air to cool an air-cooled engine which means a big fan which uses up a lot of power. Plus an oil cooler is usually used as the oil gets real hot! Air cooled VW's had an oil cooler above #3 cylinder causing it to always run hot so valves usually burned on that cylinder first.
(You'll notice that airplanes have a huge fan on front to cool the engine?
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2020, 03:08 PM   #9
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,026
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

Airplanes can't stop at a stop sign so they always have air flow. Many have cowl flaps to control air flow as needed. Aircraft engines have always been under the weight controlled design for better power to weight ratio. As technology progressed, they finally found ways to use liquid cooling to a science with examples being Rolls Royce Merlin engines and Allison 1710 V12 engines. The Merlin had more power due to a built in supercharger system and the allison was stuck with turbocharging so it never gained the power levels that the RR/Packard Merlins did.

The smaller helicopters with piston engines still use a basic air cooled aircraft engine but they are modified for different fan designs with baffles to help cool things down. A lot of them have two oil coolers just to keep within limits under heavy loads. Cylinder head temperature and oil temperature gauges are required items on all of the air cooled aircraft engines.

Ferdinand Porsche was the head of the design team that developed the "peoples car" for the German Labor Front (Union) back in 1937 before Hitler went ape shit. VW, Auto Union (Audi), and Porsche have been intertwined with each other in one way or another since the war was over.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 12:55 AM   #10
daveymc29
Senior Member
 
daveymc29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Danville, CA
Posts: 1,345
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

We had an amphib in the Marines that was air cooled. Not many produced for some reason and I never drove one. our P-5 Amphibious tractor used an Allison 1790 V12 that was converted to water cooled. Only engine problem I EVER SAW WITH IT WAS GUYS DRIVING IT WOULD FORGET TO STOP BEFORE ENTERING THE WATER AND THE JACKSHAFTS THAT RAN FANS ON THE TWO SIDES OF THE VEHICLE WOULD BREAD WHEN THE FANS HIT THE WATER. THEN I'D HAVE TO REPLACE THE JACKSHAFT UNIVERSAL JOINTS, SPARK PLUGS OFTEN FOULED IF THE VEHICLE WAS PUSHED HARD ON LAND DURING HOT DAYS AT CAMP PENDLETON.
daveymc29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 11:03 AM   #11
dropacent
Senior Member
 
dropacent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 134
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

Ford had an air cooled car planned in 1904. Iíve been told one was built, and think Iíve seen plans. They decided to go with water cooled instead, and produced the 4 cylinder model B. About this time, the split with the majority stockholder Alexander Malcomson took place. Malcomson went on to produce the Aerocar, using air cooled motors made in Indiana. Perhaps the split was connected to this somehow. Remember, at this time FoMoCo was an assembler, not making the parts themselves.
dropacent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 11:09 AM   #12
dropacent
Senior Member
 
dropacent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 134
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

Air cooled ford
Attached Images
File Type: jpg EABA6B9B-96F0-40C6-86A7-7FDAE1DAE48E.jpg (68.3 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg A42CEA5D-8005-4D06-BCA6-576A93320D2B.jpg (68.3 KB, 9 views)
dropacent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 11:10 AM   #13
dropacent
Senior Member
 
dropacent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 134
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

Air cooled
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 47075B32-F9B9-4272-942E-08338F61363C.jpg (68.3 KB, 7 views)
dropacent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 02:30 PM   #14
gz
Senior Member
 
gz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,413
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

At least one air-cooled c. 1904 Model B four cylinder engine was built. The Henry Ford Museum has one but it is not on display.
gz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 05:59 PM   #15
dropacent
Senior Member
 
dropacent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 134
Default Re: early ford development water cooled vs air cooled

That would be really neat to see that motor, Guy. If I can recall the conversation with LD Porter correctly, he told me he saw it, and the flywheel was at opposite ends than the production engine. Little fuzzy on that. It would be interesting to me if it may have been the same as the aerocar motor, that Malcomson ended up using.
dropacent is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19 PM.