The Ford Barn

titus · 03-30-2011, 03:18 PM

Hows it going guys?

I got a v8-60 tube axle the other day and was looking at it, then today me and a few buddys were talking about it and wondering how it was manufactured, i believe it was a forged out of a peice of tubing, with little spacers added where the perch bolts are, the axle i got has a little spacer that was spot welded to the axle but now has fallen off.

anyone know for a fact how they were made?

Oh and they weigh 17.5 pounds, my 33-36 axle weight was 20.5 and the 32 heavy axle weights 23 lbs, so there is a slight weight saving.

JEFF

PeterC · 03-30-2011, 09:50 PM

Previous thread may be of interest

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23083

Bruce Lancaster · 03-31-2011, 09:45 AM

The only documentation I have ever seen is in the production change section of the '38-9 resto book. Aside from the British/Euro Model 62 version (!), these were used in very limited experimental productio, sort of a Beta test to see if a new way of making axles held up in public use. They were fed into Rouge cars in small lots sized in hundreds, in 1938 and '39 85's, leftovers dumped into 1940 V8-60's. I've seen a picture of one coming down the line on an 85...it is reproduced in the Rouge Plant book, among other places.
There is no documentation in there of the common belief that they came on a few '37 V8 so's, but of course when dealing with ancient industrial records it is quite possible that some are missing.
They were rare when new, and I think they were almost mandatory for sprint cars, then later dragsters and T-buckets...probably the circle trackers managed to destroy most of them long ago.

Bruce Lancaster · 03-31-2011, 10:21 AM

PS...the only one I have has no provenance whatever...no brakes or spindles, perches and wishbone torched away, nothing that would give a clue to what it left Detroit in.

john hamilton · 03-31-2011, 10:24 AM

And, considering all the weaknesses of these axles, if yours is chromed and you don't know the history it may have hydrogen embrittlement.

bear40 · 03-31-2011, 10:43 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by titus

anyone know for a fact how they were made?

JEFF

I always thought the kingpin bosses were welded on, but you're saying they look like they were forged on the end of the tube using the hole in the end as an access hole for tooling? Can you see any signs of weld?

DavidG · 03-31-2011, 10:53 AM

Should anyone want a NOS tubular axle, I have one available for sale.

RB · 03-31-2011, 10:58 AM

I have a n.o.s. 37-40 tube axle in factory red primer for a someday project, one end near the perch boss is stamped "B B", while the opposite end is stamped "B c B" the "c" however is rotated 90 degrees. Uncertain what the designation might be be, thought I might throw this tidbit in the mix for someone to unravel. Ron

curbspeed · 04-05-2011, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john hamilton

And, considering all the weaknesses of these axles, if yours is chromed and you don't know the history it may have hydrogen embrittlement.

Mr. Hamilton, Could you please post visual evidence of the weakness of the V8-60 axle and also post pictures of catastrophic failure due to hydrogen embrittlement. Two or three examples should suffice my curiosity on this subject matter. Thank you in advance.

thunderbirdesq · 04-06-2011, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curbspeed

Mr. Hamilton, Could you please post visual evidence of the weakness of the V8-60 axle and also post pictures of catastrophic failure due to hydrogen embrittlement. Two or three examples should suffice my curiosity on this subject matter. Thank you in advance.

My thoughts exactly...

Bruce Lancaster · 04-06-2011, 01:19 PM

On the letters...most V8 axles (regular beam type) carry an EE or EE-number near the end. This is code for Ford electric furnace steel of a certain type, and maybe the number relates to the heat treat type used. Your BB may well be another steel formula...I don't know if I can find the Ford metallurgy text, but will look.
I have been told that Hydrogen embrittlement is only a problem on hard heat treats and that the tough but relatively soft formula and heat treat on Ford beams is not susceptible to it. Dunno personally...no education in that area.
A guy (physicist) from Bell Labs here told me the migrating hydrogen actually attacks the hard surface from below, like shot peening from the wrong side!
The need for immediately heating plated parts was supposedly discovered by the Navy in the '30's when carrier fighter landing gear, plated for salt water resistance, started failing on routine landings. The design, like everything for carrier planes, was insanely strong and overbuilt...investigation led to understanding of HE and the heat regime needed to counter it.

Walt Dupont--Me. · 04-06-2011, 02:30 PM

When I was a teen ager back in the late 50's a friend had a 39 coupe with a 60 in it. We install an Olds engine and took it to Sanford Me. drag strip. It wouldn't pass inspection because the king pin was loose in the axel, not the bushings. We went into town and found a garage with a welder and welded the king pin right to the axel through that hole in the front. Went back to the track and it passed inspection. That was the good old days. Walt

alchemy · 04-06-2011, 03:27 PM

I usta own a really nice 60 tube axle that had the whole end, including the perch bosses like are broken-off parts on Titus's axle, forged as one. The perch area bosses had a smooth fillet like the Forged I-beam axles do. I sold this axle to Europe and it ended up on a hotrod '34 coupe with a LaSalle grille. They brass plated it I think.

I now own an old hotrod 60 axle, grungy chrome and some extra brackets I cut off, and it has the perch risers made separate and welded on like Titus's. So there are at least two variations on this low-production part.

I've got no idea how they are forged though.

Bruce Lancaster · 04-06-2011, 04:05 PM

Stop sending our axles to the Europeans...they got their own, also semi experimental and ultra rare, tube axle on the Model 62!

boo · 04-07-2011, 10:17 PM

have a tube axil on my rdst. pu. been 10 years, no problem. have another one, looked at it today, bosses look forged ,cant see any sign of welding..

Bruce Lancaster · 04-08-2011, 09:29 AM

A little research...go to Google patents and look at 1876903 for an earlier take (substantially different perch arrangement!) tube design from Ford. 1908744 is a deuce patent primarily focused on brake arrangements, but look at that axle!
looks like tube axle was under development for a while at Ford. Haven't found later developments yet...

Mart · 04-08-2011, 11:32 AM

Hey, Bruce, thanks for the heads up on Google Patents. I did a search on Henry Ford and found all kinds of good stuff.
Where did the last hour go?

Mart.

Bruce Lancaster · 04-08-2011, 11:48 AM

Tips...go to Advanced search. Set date limits to a couple years early, maybe 5 years later than part was used. Look over the several word lines and use creativeley...try "Ford" both as assignee and as inventor...
To find non-Ford manufactured stuff made for Fords, use popular terms like "Ford V8", "V8-Ford", V-8 and v8, etc.
I have a couple pages of specifically deuce patents, Model A ones, and so on.

Bruce Lancaster · 04-08-2011, 01:04 PM

Some links to Ford patents, from standard deuce parts to futurama:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...hlight=patents

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...ents&showall=1

Bruce Lancaster · 04-11-2011, 12:38 PM

Scored another tube axle this weekend! Went to to very small local AACA swap meet. There it was...$65 for axle, wishbone, and spring! Grabbed it.
My immediate reaction was "What the heck??"... these things have been worth a lot more than that for decades now, and here this one was hours into the meet. There were plentiful Ford V8 people there, and hotrodders, and rods...and it just sat there all day. At Hershey, someone would have bought it at the crack of dawn and treated it immediately to a spectacular new price tag, I'm sure.
This one's a bit pitted, probably on the ragged edge for polish and chrome, but entirely solid.
We need someone to find one that is absolute junk and run a bandsaw through it so we can figgerout what exactly Henry did...

03-30-2011, 09:50 PM	#2
PeterC Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Connecticut Posts: 855	Re: v8-60 tube axle question Previous thread may be of interest https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23083

03-31-2011, 09:45 AM	#3
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: v8-60 tube axle question The only documentation I have ever seen is in the production change section of the '38-9 resto book. Aside from the British/Euro Model 62 version (!), these were used in very limited experimental productio, sort of a Beta test to see if a new way of making axles held up in public use. They were fed into Rouge cars in small lots sized in hundreds, in 1938 and '39 85's, leftovers dumped into 1940 V8-60's. I've seen a picture of one coming down the line on an 85...it is reproduced in the Rouge Plant book, among other places. There is no documentation in there of the common belief that they came on a few '37 V8 so's, but of course when dealing with ancient industrial records it is quite possible that some are missing. They were rare when new, and I think they were almost mandatory for sprint cars, then later dragsters and T-buckets...probably the circle trackers managed to destroy most of them long ago.

03-31-2011, 10:21 AM	#4
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: v8-60 tube axle question PS...the only one I have has no provenance whatever...no brakes or spindles, perches and wishbone torched away, nothing that would give a clue to what it left Detroit in.

03-31-2011, 10:24 AM	#5
john hamilton Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Waxahachie, Texas Posts: 241	Re: v8-60 tube axle question And, considering all the weaknesses of these axles, if yours is chromed and you don't know the history it may have hydrogen embrittlement.

03-31-2011, 10:53 AM	#7
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,101	Re: v8-60 tube axle question Should anyone want a NOS tubular axle, I have one available for sale.

03-31-2011, 10:58 AM	#8
RB Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: papillion nebraska Posts: 406	Re: v8-60 tube axle question I have a n.o.s. 37-40 tube axle in factory red primer for a someday project, one end near the perch boss is stamped "B B", while the opposite end is stamped "B c B" the "c" however is rotated 90 degrees. Uncertain what the designation might be be, thought I might throw this tidbit in the mix for someone to unravel. Ron

04-06-2011, 01:19 PM	#11
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: v8-60 tube axle question On the letters...most V8 axles (regular beam type) carry an EE or EE-number near the end. This is code for Ford electric furnace steel of a certain type, and maybe the number relates to the heat treat type used. Your BB may well be another steel formula...I don't know if I can find the Ford metallurgy text, but will look. I have been told that Hydrogen embrittlement is only a problem on hard heat treats and that the tough but relatively soft formula and heat treat on Ford beams is not susceptible to it. Dunno personally...no education in that area. A guy (physicist) from Bell Labs here told me the migrating hydrogen actually attacks the hard surface from below, like shot peening from the wrong side! The need for immediately heating plated parts was supposedly discovered by the Navy in the '30's when carrier fighter landing gear, plated for salt water resistance, started failing on routine landings. The design, like everything for carrier planes, was insanely strong and overbuilt...investigation led to understanding of HE and the heat regime needed to counter it.

04-06-2011, 02:30 PM	#12
Walt Dupont--Me. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gardiner Me. Posts: 4,200	Re: v8-60 tube axle question When I was a teen ager back in the late 50's a friend had a 39 coupe with a 60 in it. We install an Olds engine and took it to Sanford Me. drag strip. It wouldn't pass inspection because the king pin was loose in the axel, not the bushings. We went into town and found a garage with a welder and welded the king pin right to the axel through that hole in the front. Went back to the track and it passed inspection. That was the good old days. Walt

04-06-2011, 03:27 PM	#13
alchemy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: middle of Iowa Posts: 647	Re: v8-60 tube axle question I usta own a really nice 60 tube axle that had the whole end, including the perch bosses like are broken-off parts on Titus's axle, forged as one. The perch area bosses had a smooth fillet like the Forged I-beam axles do. I sold this axle to Europe and it ended up on a hotrod '34 coupe with a LaSalle grille. They brass plated it I think. I now own an old hotrod 60 axle, grungy chrome and some extra brackets I cut off, and it has the perch risers made separate and welded on like Titus's. So there are at least two variations on this low-production part. I've got no idea how they are forged though.

04-06-2011, 04:05 PM	#14
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: v8-60 tube axle question Stop sending our axles to the Europeans...they got their own, also semi experimental and ultra rare, tube axle on the Model 62!

04-07-2011, 10:17 PM	#15
boo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: stuart, fl Posts: 156	Re: v8-60 tube axle question have a tube axil on my rdst. pu. been 10 years, no problem. have another one, looked at it today, bosses look forged ,cant see any sign of welding..

04-08-2011, 09:29 AM	#16
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: v8-60 tube axle question A little research...go to Google patents and look at 1876903 for an earlier take (substantially different perch arrangement!) tube design from Ford. 1908744 is a deuce patent primarily focused on brake arrangements, but look at that axle! looks like tube axle was under development for a while at Ford. Haven't found later developments yet...

04-08-2011, 11:32 AM	#17
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,747	Re: v8-60 tube axle question Hey, Bruce, thanks for the heads up on Google Patents. I did a search on Henry Ford and found all kinds of good stuff. Where did the last hour go? Mart.

04-08-2011, 11:48 AM	#18
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: v8-60 tube axle question Tips...go to Advanced search. Set date limits to a couple years early, maybe 5 years later than part was used. Look over the several word lines and use creativeley...try "Ford" both as assignee and as inventor... To find non-Ford manufactured stuff made for Fords, use popular terms like "Ford V8", "V8-Ford", V-8 and v8, etc. I have a couple pages of specifically deuce patents, Model A ones, and so on.

04-08-2011, 01:04 PM	#19
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: v8-60 tube axle question Some links to Ford patents, from standard deuce parts to futurama: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...hlight=patents http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...ents&showall=1

04-11-2011, 12:38 PM	#20
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: v8-60 tube axle question Scored another tube axle this weekend! Went to to very small local AACA swap meet. There it was...$65 for axle, wishbone, and spring! Grabbed it. My immediate reaction was "What the heck??"... these things have been worth a lot more than that for decades now, and here this one was hours into the meet. There were plentiful Ford V8 people there, and hotrodders, and rods...and it just sat there all day. At Hershey, someone would have bought it at the crack of dawn and treated it immediately to a spectacular new price tag, I'm sure. This one's a bit pitted, probably on the ragged edge for polish and chrome, but entirely solid. We need someone to find one that is absolute junk and run a bandsaw through it so we can figgerout what exactly Henry did...