Tyree Harris's Model A Wiring Harness...

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Jim Mason

Just got off the phone with him...he is not making custom wiring any more. apparently he made a harness identical one that got full points at a previous meet for a guy and it got dockped points at that meet. he got a lot of blow back, and now will no longer make 'custom' wiring...

That has little to do with the part and everything to do with the judges ego!

There are judges that just because they know a part is reproduction but can show no difference from an original will still deduct points anyway.

[ericr]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

That has little to do with the part and everything to do with the judges ego!

There are judges that just because they know a part is reproduction but can show no difference from an original will still deduct points anyway.

So we lost a unique craftsman all because of the vicissitudes of competitive judging of a car that was mass-produced, that always used up old supplies of components as new ones were released, that was assembled in different plants all across the country, etc. I can appreciate and praise precise, authentic restorations, but splitting hairs over minutae puzzles me.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by ericr

So we lost a unique craftsman all because of the vicissitudes of competitive judging of a car that was mass-produced, that always used up old supplies of components as new ones were released, that was assembled in different plants all across the country, etc. I can appreciate and praise precise, authentic restorations, but splitting hairs over minutiae puzzles me.

That is my opinion on it, yes.

There is not enough time or place on the judging sheets for proper comments. There is also, I beleive, no way to appeal a judges decision once made.

So the easiest thing is to go back to the supplier and bitch them out for lost points. The owner should have gone after the judges to prove the part was in some way distinguishable from an original in operation and appearance. The simple knowledge that a part is a reproduction is not supposed to be enough to have points deducted, at least in Model A's.

[Steve Plucker]

OK Guys, this is the story as to why I went to Tyree Harris and if I disapoint someone...that is NOT my problem.

I ordered the specified wiring harnes for my 1928 early 1929 Tudor Sedan from Brattons back in 2011. Completely forgot that I did as it was in a box I had stuffed away. About a year ago 2014, I called Sacramento Vintage Ford and placed an order telling them it was for the Tudor and that I had the original terminals for which I was going to use and they sent it to me.

Fast forward to now, 2015, I discovered the one I got from Brattons so now I had two Wiring Harness for my 1928-early 1929 Tudor Sedan with single bulb headlights.

About June of this year, I decided to compair the two...well guess what, they were different from each other.

So then I ordered the specific drawings from the Ford Archives pertaining to this particular era of production.

The drawings that I received from the archives were for A-14403-B Headlamp Wiring Assembly and A-14405-B Stop and Tail Lamp Wiring Assembly and A-14401 Wiring Assembly on Cowl.

These drawings are very specific and very detailed. The drawing dates were February 1928 and the next drawing date was January 1929 when the Two-light system was going to take the place of the Single-bulb system and nothing inbetwen.

So now I decided to do some comparisons between Brattons, Sacramento Vintage Ford and the original Ford drawings of the harnesses themselves.

Brattons harness problems were as such:

The Stop and Tail Lamp Wiring Assembly, A-14405-B…From where the two green wires go to the Stop Light Switch and continuing toward the tail light, that distance on your harness is 61 inches plus the 1 inch of exposed wires to attach to the rear tail light. HOWEVER…The February 27, 1928 Part Drawing shows a distance of 84 inches plus 1 inch of exposed wires (Part Drawing enclosed). Other than that, all other distances appear to be correct. This means that one has to attach an extra 23 inches to get to the required 84 inches and that is not correct on a restored to original Model A of this time period. (Review page 440 of the March 1930 Ford Service Bulletin).

The Headlamp Wiring Assembly, A-14403-B…The problem here starts at 15-1/2 inches (not including the exposed wires to the contact plate) to where the two wires take off for the right headlamp. That length is two inches longer, not including the 5 inches of exposed wires, on yours as compared to the drawing (Part Drawing enclosed). This is also explained in the MARC/MAFCA RG’s and JS’s.

Where the separation is, and according to the part drawing, there should be three more inches of “Black Glazed Cotton Braid” on the wires leading to the left headlamp, the two horn wires and the cutout wires. This is also explained in the MARC/MAFCA RG’s and JS’s.


Also, when I compared the “hookup” to the contact plate or light switch on your harness, the hookup, appears to be wrong…I looked and looked at it and it is just not right…maybe I am not seeing the hookup right but according to the schematic drawing of the hookup in the January 1928 Ford Service Bulletin…it is different.

The Wiring Assembly On Cowl, A-14401…The one I received from you has a 18-1/2 inch Black Cotton Braid with a single silver spiral thread going from one end to the other which should not be there. Also the red wire that attaches to the ignition switch is 5-1/2 inches. This should be 4 inches. Also on this assembly, you have a yellow wire with a single black tracer…This should be a double black tracer, not a single black tracer. (Part Drawing enclosed).

Sacramento Vintage Ford harness problems were:

The Stop and Tail Lamp Wiring Assembly, A-14405-B…(Part Drawing enclosed). This assembly that you sent me is perfect, length wise, however there is just one thing wrong with it…It is made with 14 gauge wire. It is supposed to be made with 16 gauge wire.

When I started to try to put the original flag terminals on to the wire itself, they would not fit. The wire, being 14 gauge, is just to big where the 16 gauge does fit the terminals. Really bummed me out.

The Headlamp Wiring Assembly, A-14403-B…(Part Drawing enclosed). Here again, the wire is 14 gauge where it should be 16 gauge. The first segment, starting with the Black Glazed Cotton Braid, on your wire is 12 inches. This should be 15-1/2 inches. The remaining wires were made long enough to cut and put original terminals on but can’t because the wire needs to be 16 gauge. The braided area for the two yellow wires to the cutout is 12-1/2 inches instead of the 10-1/4 inches on the drawing.

I informed both companies of the problem in a letter, provided copies of the drawings and the data in the MARC/MAFCA Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards to back up my concerns to see if they would do me up one that was correct according to the Ford drawings.

Did not hear back from Sacramento Vintage Ford but did Brattons and the fellow there told me that he would have to talk with Walt. Still no answer.

I then contacted Mr. Harris, explained the situation to him, and he said that he would make me up what I requested according to the drawings and that is just what he did and I am very pleased.

So if you want something done right, do the research, get the drawings from the archives, and request your Model A vendor to do it right the first time. Good God, you pay enough for these things...they should do it right from the start. Maybe the later 1929-31's are done correctly...I do not know. All I know is that this time period was not done correctly with Brattons and SVF.

Pluck

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

OK Guys, this is the story as to why I went to Tyree Harris and if I dissapoint someone...that is NOT my problem.

Nicely done, thanks for pointing out the differences between the harnesses. We often hear this and that but you have taken the time to pinpoint the actual differences between the harnesses and the drawings.

THANKS!!!

[Jim Mason]

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No, we lost a source of wiring made to the prints because of the bile spewed at the person who made the wiring. unlike some, judges make mistakes. Like many, rather than directing the disagreement to the person or people that should hear it, and have the ability to correct it, they chose to berate the messenger. fine point isn't for everybody, most prefer 'good enough'. If you don't play the game, don't try to make the rules and don't assume the the error was intentional. I've never heard anyone say 'I'm going to do the worst job I can, and take as many points away as possible.' Also, I don't see how taking points intentionally would build anyone's reputation or ego. Nobody will ever remember what the team members names are at a specific meet in 6 months. Your mileage my vary.....

[RonC]

Brattons current catalog now says "made from the Ford print" "....best wiring available" I would assume that means they are now the correct lengths and gauge wiring.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by RonC

Brattons current catalog now says "made from the Ford print" "....best wiring available" I would assume that means they are now the correct lengths and gauge wiring.

Yes they do...but they do not say WHICH Ford print now do they?

Remember, it was 2011 when I got their harness (#20370)...4 years ago...I have no idea or can not remember what the 2011 book said...Do you? Maybe they changed but they did not indicate to me that they had when I talked to the guy at Brattons about a month ago nor did they write me and tell me...nothing!.

Pluck

[Jim Mason]

They do say you need to use a repop switch plate for 1928..

[Skibb]

I too am installing a Tyree wiring kit. Ty Brent for the idea

[RonC]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

Yes they do...but they do not say WHICH Ford print now do they?

Remember, it was 2011 when I got their harness (#20370)...4 years ago...I have no idea or can not remember what the 2011 book said...Do you? Maybe they changed but they did not indicate to me that they had when I talked to the guy at Brattons about a month ago nor did they write me and tell me...nothing!.

Pluck

No I don't have the 2011 book but I do have a 2009 copy and it says made from Ford print also

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

That is my opinion on it, yes.

There is not enough time or place on the judging sheets for proper comments. There is also, I beleive, no way to appeal a judges decision once made.

So the easiest thing is to go back to the supplier and bitch them out for lost points. The owner should have gone after the judges to prove the part was in some way distinguishable from an original in operation and appearance. The simple knowledge that a part is a reproduction is not supposed to be enough to have points deducted, at least in Model A's.

Looks like I need to expand upon this a little. While everything I have said above is as I understand it; lack of time and space, lack of recourse, simply knowing a part is reproduction points deduction, here is what we really don't know. What did the actual harness used look like that had the points deducted, was that harness on model A at an Model A national event?

Again it is my understanding that Ford used the same pattern in the "trace" colors on their harnesses. So I have here some pictures that Marco Tahtaras has posted over the years and it would be nice if we could see the same closeups from Tryee, Sac vintage, and Brattons. Is the pattern on the lacing the same as these original wires?

I have spoken to people that have spent a lot of time and money to get their cars "right" and I can understand 100% their frustration when a part that they believe to be correct is said not to be. I can understand a vendors frustration when he follows the instructions of the customer and is still told he did it wrong.

Some judge made an error. Human error or flexing "muscle" we will never know.

Maybe Model A judges don't have egos but I have judged along side those that have pointed out a part to be reproduction and when asked about it have been told "there are no originals of that part anymore."

Anyway I hope to see pictures of the other harnesses so true comparisons can be made and attention to detail can be honored.

[Kevin in NJ]

So now this beggs the question.

Who makes a 31 harness with the correct length and wire gauge?

Perfect Judging Standards is not what I am looking for, but correct functioning is important.

[Hunter]

Geez- It is really unfortunate that the owner of the fine point car didn't carefully read the comments provided by the judges or, if they were not explicit enough, follow up with a phone call to the judges of the electrical section and ask for additional clarification. With this information in hand the car owner could have (1) modified the harness or had a new one made that complied with the standards or (2) educated the judging staff in the electrical section if they had made a mistake.

After working on my car for 12 years when I entered it into fine point judging for the first time I did not receive my goal of a Henry. I did, however, a few weeks after the event receive the scoring sheets with many great comments that allowed me to correct the vast majority of the items. On several items that I could not figure out why I lost points I did additional research or called members of the judging teams to learn more.

Without a singe exception, members of the judging staff were extremely helpful and wanted me to succeed. Second time out I succeeded and received the Henry.

I wish the car owner had not blasted Tyree Harris for producing what he (the car owner) specified. Tyree is a true gentlemen and a pleasure to work with. I hope Tyree will reconsider his decision as he does wonderful work.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Geez- It is really unfortunate that the owner of the fine point car didn't carefully read the comments provided by the judges or, if they were not explicit enough, follow up with a phone call to the judges of the electrical section and ask for additional clarification. With this information in hand the car owner could have (1) modified the harness or had a new one made that complied with the standards or (2) educated the judging staff in the electrical section if they had made a mistake.

After working on my car for 12 years when I entered it into fine point judging for the first time I did not receive my goal of a Henry. I did, however, a few weeks after the event receive the scoring sheets with many great comments that allowed me to correct the vast majority of the items. On several items that I could not figure out why I lost points I did additional research or called members of the judging teams to learn more.

Without a singe exception, members of the judging staff were extremely helpful and wanted me to succeed. Second time out I succeeded and received the Henry.

I wish the car owner had not blasted Tyree Harris for producing what he (the car owner) specified. Tyree is a true gentlemen and a pleasure to work with. I hope Tyree will reconsider his decision as he does wonderful work.

And that is the BIG KEY to do...the research...Granted the Judging Standards are the key but it is that last, extra step that fullfills ones goal of what ever he or she is trying to achive.

And yes...I to hope Tyree will reconsider...he steped up to the plate and he did a fantastic job on following the Ford Drawings specific for my 1928-early 1929 Tudors wiring system.

Now...I would not call these a "special" made harness. Yes, it would of been if I instructed him to deviate from the Ford drawings, but I did not...He made the harness correctly for the time period and I would really like to see the "drawings" that the others refer to in making their "period correct" harness.

I bet they can't step up to the plate and show us.

Now for those of you who are interested in the progression of these harness...Go to the MAFFI website and type in these numbers in their parts index:

A-14403 for the Headlamp Wiring Assembly;

A-14405 for the Stop and Tail Lamp Wiring Assembly;

A-14401 for the Wiring Assembly on Cowl.

Here you will find the different types of each and the EI and Drawing dates.

A lot of the EI inbetween the specific changes were minor and in most cases insignificant from one style to the other.

Yes, I would like to compair what Tyree made for me to an original from the time period but there is no website that I know of that has the originals laid out for all to see...to bad for us.

Pluck

Pluck

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

So now this beggs the question.

Who makes a 31 harness with the correct length and wire gauge?

Perfect Judging Standards is not what I am looking for, but correct functioning is important.

Any harness from an A vendor will work just fine.

[Seth Swoboda]

I've only used Tyree for wiring harnesses for Model A or Early V8's. I'd rather deal with small business. You can call up and talk to a person who cares, you get better quality, better service, and I'm supporting a small businessman and his/her family. I'll always do business that way whenever possible and gladly pay more for that opportunity.