Nightmare Engine Rebuild

[CT Jack]

30 Tudor you should get an award for keeping your cool after your experience. I too experienced similar shoddy work performed on my engine rebuild but didn't find it out until 10K miles later. All I can say is if you want your engine to perform equal to original or better I would have J&M Machine in Southborough, MA rebuild your engine. If your engine in its present condition is not rebuildable they will tell you from the get go. If it is salvagable I can assure you they will do an outstanding job. I had my engine rebuilt by them and am very pleased with the performance and the quality of workmanship they provide. Their policy during the rebuild process is to send photos of progress, provide dimensional data, and supply before and after dynamic balance data. My friends who have J&M rebuilt engines and including myself are all very pleased with the end results.

[Art Newland]

Heart breaking story, hang in there 30 Tudor, you'll get things going your way, just gonna take a little longer than you were planning. Sounds like this shop isn't used to dealing with someone that knows engines and they've been caught! Spread the word to your fellow Model Aers and keep others from spending there money with these people.

[Model A Man]

This is why I am always contemplating going with a modern motor in my model A's instead of getting the original motors rebuilt. Or may be wait till Tod gets his new model A motors done.

[Mike V. Florida]

So sorry to hear about your "rebuild".

You have posted what you have found, what about what you have not yet found?

If not for the fact that the engine actually goes with the car I would say turn it into a learning experience and do what you can yourself (like you said about the violins), but it would be a shame to take a chance of really damaging that block.

[leadpot]

Just curious, has anyone ever used one of the model a vendors rebuild service ? See them advertise in their catalogs different levels of rebuilt engines. Have never seen feedback on the quality or problems with these engines.

[hardtimes]

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Hey 30tudor,
Kronke Rebabbitting is in your 'vacinity' (Iowa). Call him and talk to him regarding your situation. He, most likely, has read your tale of woe and horror regarding your monster engine mess.
If I lived in your area and needed help, Kronke would be one of two choices in that area for A/B engine work.

Know that you are not alone in your situation and what you have experienced. I will say that at your age and experience(mechanical)...that you should recognize the smell/sound of BS...and walked ! Sorry to learn that another rip off has occurred. This 'rebuilder' should be taken to task and at the very least, if true, you should let others know who it is , so that they may not have same bad experience.

[aermotor]

I know there are lots variables, cracked block, head, valve seats, bad crank etc. but assuming the above are restorable what is a ballpark cost for overhaul by one of the top builders - long block?

John

[1955cj5]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey 30tudor,
Kronke Rebabbitting is in your 'vacinity' (Iowa). Call him and talk to him regarding your situation. He, most likely, has read your tale of woe and horror regarding your monster engine mess.
If I lived in your area and needed help, Kronke would be one of two choices in that area for A/B engine work.

Know that you are not alone in your situation and what you have experienced. I will say that at your age and experience(mechanical)...that you should recognize the smell/sound of BS...and walked ! Sorry to learn that another rip off has occurred. This 'rebuilder' should be taken to task and at the very least, if true, you should let others know who it is , so that they may not have same bad experience.

Iowa really isn't that close to Idaho.


There are reputable engine builders here too.

By not being specific about your location in Idaho, you cast a shadow on all the engine builders here.

I had my engine rebuilt and it runs beautifully.

The machinist even drove across the valley to be here for the first start.

[30 Tudor]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

Iowa really isn't that close to Idaho.


There are reputable engine builders here too.

By not being specific about your location in Idaho, you cast a shadow on all the engine builders here.

I had my engine rebuilt and it runs beautifully.

The machinist even drove across the valley to be here for the first start.

I apologize for that,,
I don't like to bad mouth, I even thought about just PMing some guys from here to avoid that.
I sure that many of his builds seem fine,, we don't drive these cars too hard.
But unfortunately I am being honest in my evaluation and I actually feel bad about that.
Or should I have just run the crank .0045 off center on the center main, and the babbit loose and wiggly in the block, I'm not being smart................
The old guy loves the model A stuff.....oh well. I try to love him, but it is expensive.
I live in I F.

[30 Tudor]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey 30tudor,


Know that you are not alone in your situation and what you have experienced. I will say that at your age and experience(mechanical)...that you should recognize the smell/sound of BS...and walked ! Sorry to learn that another rip off has occurred. This 'rebuilder' should be taken to task and at the very least, if true, you should let others know who it is , so that they may not have same bad experience.

Yes I saw a lot of flags, I just thought he could get the babbit in,,
15 mins from my house.
I've seen 1/2 doz, immaculate cars around here,,, restored here,,
he is their hero can everyone be wrong?
Also heard of failed rods, on new engines,,heard of after mine was done.

I should rightly have my arse kicked,,,,I know

But would I learn?

[30 Tudor]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

So sorry to hear about your "rebuild".

You have posted what you have found, what about what you have not yet found?

If not for the fact that the engine actually goes with the car I would say turn it into a learning experience and do what you can yourself (like you said about the violins), but it would be a shame to take a chance of really damaging that block.

Yes exactly,,,I am kinda freaked out about the possibility,
The car was like disassembling a 30 year old car,
having the valve seats put in makes me ill.
It did need babbit.

[1955cj5]

Originally Posted by 30 Tudor

I apologize for that,,
I don't like to bad mouth, I even thought about just PMing some guys from here to avoid that.
I sure that many of his builds seem fine,, we don't drive these cars too hard.
But unfortunately I am being honest in my evaluation and I actually feel bad about that.
Or should I have just run the crank .0045 off center on the center main, and the babbit loose and wiggly in the block, I'm not being smart................
The old guy loves the model A stuff.....oh well. I try to love him, but it is expensive.
I live in I F.

I've heard there is a fellow who does babbitt over in Idaho Falls. I thought he had retired.

The fellow who built my engine does both babbitt and inserts, but he leans more towards inserts these days.

I would not hesitate to take him another engine.

[James Rogers]

30 Tudor, I feel your pain about the seats but, seats are not a bad thing , when needed. I never install stainless seats. The difference in the metals of the seat and the block will most often cause problems ,especially with the exhausts. If the temperatures of the exhaust get too high, it can cause the cast block to expand faster than the stainless and the seat can release the seat causing severe damage. The only way I install seats is to use cast iron seats and peen them for added security. I have installed stainless but, only at the insistence of the owner and I don't warranty them. This is all included on the customer estimate and invoice. In your case, it is quite possible to remove the seats and properly install slightly larger cast iron seats.

[Jeff/Illinois]

It's interesting about the SS seats. I recall all the talk back when lead was taken out of the gasoline in '75, how antique cars would suffer from valve seat failure, and a lot of people were scrambling to have hardened seats installed.

Fast forward to today, and we find that is not the case. The original design was/is fine, and actually looks like it's better to stay stock as the way Ford designed this engine.

The low comp. ratio of the Model A seems to be pretty forgiving. Maybe that is one reason Henry worked it out that way.

30Tudor keep us informed on your situation.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

On this post there seems to be that Hard Seats are getting a bad name.

There are many advantages to a hard seat.

The main reason is fixing a block surface so all the valves set on top of the block as when new. Then all is Equal, in intake gas charge, and Expulsion, if head chamber, and piston Height, and cam lift, is all the same.

If you use hard seats, and S. S. valves, you will not have valve burning issues. We build all blocks, Model T, A, and B's with all valve holes having hard seats.

If you use just the block, or cast iron seats, along with a soft valve. When the valve burns, and it is ALWAYS THE VALVE FIRST, that is when it takes the cast block, or cast seat with it.

We have built motors that had for many years, had heating problems. On pulling the head, what you seen, was a valve ground so far down in the block that the top of the valve was even with the top of the block! Like that they will Heat bad!

When you start grinding a valves seat, there is only on way for them to go, and that is down.

Another bad thing is putting in seats and having to sink the seats below the block surface so when surfacing you don't brake all the broach teeth out of the broach wheel. Your seats, and block surface should look like this. Picture below shows the way the seats should look after the block is surfaced. You will note that the seats were done badly, and Vern had to use a larger O.D., that hurts nothing, as you can see.

Plain and simple, if your Seats fail, your Babbitt fails, any machine work fails, crank ground off center, or off center in the block, bad, or no Radius in crank, its bad workmanship.

Nothing fails if done right with the machine work.

Herm.

[30 Tudor]

Thanks for all of the info and concern.
I just want to say that I did not intend this to be a witch hunt, yet I realize that it is not fair not to warn of potential trouble and cost to unsuspecting enthusiasts. I'm not happy about any part of it.
I brought up the sloppy work to emphasize the concern I have about the seats in particular.
Was the cutter the right size, worn by .002 are they loose or tight, are the holes round?

As of now I have retrieved the block from the shop that will do the rest of the work for me so I can sort out the seats. It's unfair to expect then to spend their time messing with this unless I just have it all redone, and I might if it is deemed necessary.

Right now the two outer exhaust seats will rock in the block by tapping with brass.
Maybe a burr left by the cutter? Who knows. I wouldn't call them loose but they will move, not much, but, that is an absolute no in my book, I will carefully pull them straight out and look,,, sniff ,,,and measure!
The intakes look and feel rock solid.

After a couple of nights of restless sleep after reading about seat problems right here on fordbarn, I realized that there could be lots of potential problems that lie ahead
if I don't address them now, I didn't install them myself and have not a clue about a lot of possibilities. At this point I'm glad I've checked it out. and I don't begrudge the past, but there is a reason that the drivers licenses are pulled from many elderly people!
Thanks for the help.

[George Miller]

Sounds like you made the right move.

[bnchief]

Beautiful work as always Herm.

[30 Tudor]

I'm glad that I checked the valve seats,
Here I show a sunk seat after a little tapping,
a feeler gauge under a different seat, and the debris under the seat that I pulled out. Several of them have a gap under them on one side,
that isn't normal is it? The bottom of the one I pulled out appears to be quite a ways from being level in the bottom.

I mean to say,,,,, that thing was tight, really tight, started feeling like something could break before it came loose.
It's an SB1625-1

But if the engine was hot going down the highway, wouldn't it settle and then the valve wouldn't seat properly and eventually the valve head could break from the stress?
I have ground hundreds of valves but always had the guides or seats done
by someone else when needed. Never had a problem.

Would like to hear from all the great shop guys that do this stuff.

What next? take them all out I presume.

Sure gonna be pretty to get this baby running!

[George Miller]

To bad that he messed up a good engine. You can take it to a shop that knows what they are doing and get over size seats. They make them with the same size bore, but a larger OD. You can also get them thicker.