supercharged y-block carb on e-pay

[Alaska Jim]

Am I behind the times or is this thing overpriced? //www.ebay.com/i/264214488058?ul_noapp=true

[darrell]

i seen that.what can you say.

[Ford blue blood]

You can ask what ever you want for something, doesn't change the value, doesn't mean it will sell for that price, what it will sell for determines the value.

[scicala]

Yeah, that's a real one, and complete and in very good shape. I've been searching EBAY for things like this since about 2005. This is the 2nd one I've seen (about 10 years apart). The price doesn't surprise me because of the rarity and valuable car it goes on. Still way too much though.


Sal

[rotorwrench]

It's hard to find a Y-block T-bird with a supercharger as well. There weren't a lot made that way.

[dmsfrr]

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Originally Posted by scicala

. . . The price doesn't surprise me because of the rarity and valuable car it goes on. Still way too much though.
Sal

Not trying to justify the price but only explain why it's very rare, the "Phase 1" '57 Thunderbirds were the hand-built racing predecessors of the F-Code Thunderbirds that later became available to the public in limited numbers (less than 220).

"The rarest of all 1957 Ford Thunderbirds is the 1957 Phase One D/F Factory Supercharged. One of 15 hand-built for Ford Competition at Ford Headquarters, and one of eight known to survive today. ... More than 10 times rarer than the coveted 1957 "F" Factory Supercharged Thunderbirds. McNamara at Ford proposed an initial production Phase One D/F Supercharged Thunderbird and Ford Customs to meet NASCAR homologation requirements and targeted Daytona Beach Speed Trials scheduled to begin on February 3, 1957, for their competition debut."
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Even...CHARGED-180331
.

[packrat5]

First of all, you have to consider the car this may be intended for. A restoration on this type of car could and likely would easily exceed 150-200K, so the price of a numbers matching carb is a non-issue. Second this is not 1962 anymore, and guys on this site, and other Ford sites, just can't seem to grasp this fact, and also, you can't just go to a junkyard anymore, and score a part for a "couple of bucks". Third, sellers are getting smarter than they were years ago, they have to compete. How many of these guys sold a part in good faith, trying to help a guy out, and then heard about him joking with his pals about "scoring a part for a steal"? It's happened to me many times. A few of them are probably reading this right now. And fourth, you never hear chevy guys whining about parts prices. Look at the prices chev carbs go for, and most of them were sold in the hundreds of thousands. Even correct original bolts go for huge dollars. Fifth, how many guys looking at this carb are actually interested in buying it? If you are not then why are you worried, or even concerned? And lastly, the old saying "if you can't afford to be in the game, find another table"

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Ford blue blood

You can ask what ever you want for something, doesn't change the value, doesn't mean it will sell for that price, what it will sell for determines the value.

Kind of like that '32 Ford radio on ebay (for many months) for $10,000, down from $12,500!

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by packrat5

first of all, you have to consider the car this may be intended for. A restoration on this type of car could and likely would easily exceed 150-200k, so the price of a numbers matching carb is a non-issue.

Second this is not 1962 anymore, and guys on this site, and other ford sites, just can't seem to grasp this fact, and also, you can't just go to a junkyard anymore, and score a part for a "couple of bucks".

Third, sellers are getting smarter than they were years ago, they have to compete. How many of these guys sold a part in good faith, trying to help a guy out, and then heard about him joking with his pals about "scoring a part for a steal"? It's happened to me many times. A few of them are probably reading this right now. And fourth, you never hear chevy guys whining about parts prices.

Look at the prices chev carbs go for, and most of them were sold in the hundreds of thousands. Even correct original bolts go for huge dollars. Fifth, how many guys looking at this carb are actually interested in buying it? If you are not then why are you worried, or even concerned? And lastly, the old saying "if you can't afford to be in the game, find another table"

very well posted!

[Alaska Jim]

I realize the rarity of the carb, and realize the rarity of the application. I just did not think they were selling for this much. That being said, I have no use for the carb and probably never will need one. I was just surprised at the price and was asking if that price was the "normal" price for those cards, and that application.

[packrat5]

There is no "normal" for something like this. A few more than a dozen of these cars were built, and theoretically, the carbs should all still be with the cars. They should never come up for sale. As only 8 of the cars have been documented, it's more than weird that a lone carb should suddenly appear. I would venture a guess, that the rest of the set-up has already sold on e-pay in the last few months to a person who may have no idea what he has purchased, and the seller has realized what he more or less gave away, and is trying to recover his loss. You never know. An assumption without proof is just that, an assumption. All these superchargers have a serial number, and you can trace them back to the original application.
Here is an unrelated story. Last year, a McCulloch supercharger went up for sale, with a Packard emblem on it. There was no such thing. The 57-58 Packards had a Studebaker-Packard emblem, or a McCulloch emblem. My son and I saw it, and knew immediately what it was. It sold for $400! There were 6 Packard Panthers made. One was supercharged. One was under restoration, and it was the supercharged one. It was missing the supercharger, and was presumed lost. Not so! We hope it went to the right people.

[scicala]

I would be curious to see the date code on the EBAY carb. Can't see it from the angle of the pictures. Wondering if they just made these for the production run of cars, or if any were built for service after the fact. The Holley manuals don't even include these carbs or specs for them.


Sal

[Oldmics]

Heres a good explanation regarding the modifications.


Its from Pat Fleischman who is an expert on the blower items




Holley used bowls on top and inside the bonnet on a Teapot 4000 series Holley. This is the advantage that the pressures in the bowl are equal so brass floats work fine. All external openings the carb must be sealed or fuel will spray out due the pressure differential outside the bonnet. This includes the throttle shafts, which may seep some fuel, but not a huge issue with low boost(under 10psi) combined with tight throttle shaft bushings. The F-code carb has added bosses on the side of the carb to direct boost pressure to the throttle shafts to prevent fuel leaking out of the shafts. The vacuum secondaries would never open under boost conditions, so ford had a boss cast to direct boost pressure into the other side of the secondary diaphragm which was sealed as well. The boost actually forces the secondaries open. Because the bowl and fuel are in the pressured bonnet the fuel pressure must increase for each pound of boost. Without the 1:1 increase of fuel pressure over the initial 6lbs to run a Holley, the fuel flow would actually stop instantly to the bowls. Example, 6 lbs of boost needs 12 lbs of fuel. Boost requires extra fuel so the blower carb has larger jets and bigger power valve circuit.


Sal brings up a good point regarding the build date code. I will see if I can find that out.


Oldmics

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by scicala

I would be curious to see the date code on the EBAY carb. Can't see it from the angle of the pictures. Wondering if they just made these for the production run of cars, or if any were built for service after the fact. The Holley manuals don't even include these carbs or specs for them.

Sal

I don't believe there was a DATE CODE during this period. The SERVICE UPGRADE NO. (character after HOLLEY LIST NO if one) should be found in period HOLLEY CATALOGING (indicating any running Service Upgrades) as to the LIST NO, shouldn't it?

I have found in the 49/59 MPC FINAL ISSUE EDB-9510-AA as being BIRD only and EDB-9510-AB as both PASS CAR and BIRD, possibly indicating the AA was released (by HOLLEY) for initial/early use?

TED EATON has a HOLLEY CATALOG which seems to go into detail.

I believe the LIST NO is 1536.

[Oldmics]

AA Carbs were used on the Phase 1 vehicles - both passenger cars and T Birds.


AB carbs were Phase 2 installed on both passenger cars and T Birds


There were 100 Phase 1 machines built for homologation.
Who at the time was to know how rare and coveted these would become.Parts got separated and ended up everywhere.


The best story that I know of is the folks who acquired a Phase 1 T Bird that did not have all of the blower items.


A few years later at the Carlise swap meet the owner found ALL of the correct missing parts that came off of the same car.Verified by the serial numbers on the found parts.


Now what are the chances of that !


Date code of manufacturing on the carbs is stamped on the top of the fuel bowls.


No Holly info is availiable. There is a carb rebuilder who claims to have actual blueprints of the AB carb but will not make them availiable.


Oldmics

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Oldmics

AA Carbs were used on the Phase 1 vehicles - both passenger cars and T Birds.

AB carbs were Phase 2 installed on both passenger cars and T Birds

There were 100 Phase 1 machines built for homologation. Who at the time was to know how rare and coveted these would become.Parts got separated and ended up everywhere.

Date code of manufacturing on the carbs is stamped on the top of the fuel bowls.

No Holly info is availiable.

Oldmics

FOR WHOM THE BELLS FINALLY TOLLED

I finally understand it now (you might say I am phased)...

PHASE 1 was a build of 100 cars for NASCAR rules and fifteen of those were BIRD. Now it makes sense. I though the BIRD was unique and the later production FORD/BIRD was PHASE 2.

Recall that McNamara communiqué (Fr.) was written in late November 1956, with an urging that 100 supercharged cars be completed by early 1957, in time for the Daytona Beach events. As mentioned earlier, 100 supercharged Fords of various models were completed by this date, but none were identified by the later F engine code. Rather than calling these F-cars, the hobby has embraced the term "Phase 1" or "D/F" as a way of distinguishing the early supercharged cars, of which only 15 were Thunderbirds. That's right, just 15 Phase 1 supercharged 1957 Birds were built and our feature car is one of only eight known to survive.

SOURCE - https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mu...d/1281993.html

There are so many varied accounts of the period that it is hard to pull out the realities.

THANX!

______________


EDIT -

NASCAR's April 1957 ban on fuel injection, superchargers and multiple carburetors...

So that explains FOMOCO shaking it's parts bins and so many late builds of E and F-CODES.

[rotorwrench]

The McCulloch/Paxton supercharger was kind of a flash in the pan. It boosted HP but it didn't turn out to be a real game changer as they had hoped. This stuff is rare due to the short period it was offered. NASCAR banned use of forced induction due to some of these accessories. Kaiser, Packard, & Studebaker used them for a short period in earlier years and they end up being a sticking point for restoration of those type cars due to differences in the units. High point restorations take the term "expensive" and apply an unhealthy dose of steroids when you have accessories like this to repair and maintain. The later Paxton blowers are just enough different that parts can still be a problem for the older units. Getting the right model numbers & within serial number groups makes it a very expensive proposal indeed. The carburetor is just another sticking point on "factory correct" restorations.

[Alaska Jim]

Thank you all for the education.

[scicala]

"I don't believe there was a DATE CODE during this period"


There were definitely date codes on Holley carbs of this era. Stamped on the highest part of the bowl cover. If these were hand built outside of the normal Holley 4000 production line, I guess it would be possible to be stamped in a different area, or not stamped at all.
Also, these carbs had a totally unique base casting (throttle body). Not like any other Holley 4000 made.


Sal

[scicala]

Oldmics, thanks for that quote from Pat Fleischman. Very good info on this "secret specification" carburetor.
The Carter AFB's on the Studebaker R2's also did similar sealing of the bowl and throttle shafts, etc.


Sal

[scicala]

It would be very difficult, if not impossible to build a clone or phony version of this carburetor, because of the unique base.


Sal

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by scicala

"I don't believe there was a DATE CODE during this period"

There were definitely date codes on Holley carbs of this era. Stamped on the highest part of the bowl cover. If these were hand built outside of the normal Holley 4000 production line, I guess it would be possible to be stamped in a different area, or not stamped at all.

Also, these carbs had a totally unique base casting (throttle body). Not like any other Holley 4000 made.

Sal

I stand corrected and apologize. The two photos below show the location of the CARB ASSY DATE?

Was the SC H4000 base unique in shape or was it just sealed to prevent pressure blow-by through the throttle shafts?

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Oldmics

AA Carbs were used on the Phase 1 vehicles - both passenger cars and T Birds.

AB carbs were Phase 2 installed on both passenger cars and T Birds

Oldmics

Can I ask the source of your info? I have both SERVICE and PARTS info that says differently. Just want to know the actual fact(s).

[scicala]

"I stand corrected and apologize. The two photos below show the location of the CARB ASSY DATE"

"Was the SC H4000 base unique in shape or was it just sealed to prevent pressure blow-by through the throttle shafts? "




Kultulz, no apology needed here. I was just pointing out that they did have codes, and the location.


The SC carb had added thickness to the casting on the left rear side. Unlike all others.


Also, the pictures you posted are of one of the carbs I did. (not an SC carb).


Sal




"

[y'sguy]

Thanks for all this discussion, guys. In my early days with birds and salvage yard trips, we ran across all kinds of blowers and e type configs. At the time in the late 60's all those things were pretty mysterious and puzzling to deal with, not having a good knowledge base. I had seveeral e tpe setups and several blowers setups but never could accumulate all the needed parts for a good blower setup for my bird. It seems like all we ever saw were these REALLY basketcase set ups. However even though it was all sold off, traded, or abandoned in those days-I wish I had kept every bit of the junk. No internet. No Manual, No aftermarket catalogs yet. just heresay mostly.
Dad was a corporate pilot and flew all over the country. Whenever he would have downtime in anytown, USA he would head to the local FORD dealership and buy as many tbird specific items as he could haul back on the plane. Fun times, lots of interesting parts for dirt cheap. Although we didn't know it then.

[Oldmics]

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[QUOTE} Can I ask the source of your info? I have both SERVICE and PARTS info that says differently. Just want to know the actual fact(s).[/QUOTE]


AHHH KT - you just love to keep me on my toes !


As discussed the parts used had to be "homologated" for use by any of the race teams. Meaning they had to be listed as an availiable production part .


The Phase 1 parts are listed. They were snuck in for the race boys thru the back door as "Police Interceptor" parts.


Lord knows the Cops had to chase those moonshining bad guys so not only were preformance parts listed but items such as beefier brakes and suspension items were also included in the homologation parts list.


I will admit that most of my knowledge originally comes from the owners of these machines but for verification as requested Ford"s "1949 - 1957 Police Interceptor" Parts list has the carb identified as B7A 9510-V.


Using the trusty Master Cross Reference book to cross reference the B7A 9510-V it shows the "Known Part Number" stamped on the carb as EDB 9510 AA.


Not yet mentioned is the fact that the AA carbs were subjected to a higher boost pressure used for the race boys.
Meaning that there are a few differences inside the AA carb when compared to the lower boost pressures of the AB Phase 2 carbs.


I too have seen the documentation that you have stating that the units were interchangeable.
Is there an actual table that states that AA were Phase 1 and AB Phase 2 applied ? - the answer at this time is not that I am aware of.


However I will take Ford"s Police Interceptor parts list verifieing the AA use on the earliest known vehicles along with the knowledgable owners who make the claim.


Oldmics

[scicala]

Well, the EBAY auction ended and no bids or "buy it now" on the supercharger carburetor.
If it gets re-listed, I'm curious if the price will be lower. I'm sure there were a ton of people following this one.


Sal

[Oldmics]

And its back up again at the same prices


https://www.ebay.com/itm/26422494598...m=264224945980

[KULTULZ]

SELLER'S DESCRIPTION ON EVIL-BAY -

This was on a 1957 D/F Ford (phase one) sold at Maywood Bell Ford in the city of Maywood CA December 1956 (according to previous owner), I bought this over 15 years ago, it's time to sell, look for more Supercharger parts soon, sold as is no returns, it took me over 25 years to find a real supercharger carburetor.

The references I have found describes the assembly of the engines (PHASE 1) in JAN 57. Then they would have to go to an assembly plant. So how was a D/F FORD bought with the CARB in question in DEC 56?

The carb(s) in question were (are) LISTED in 49/59 MPC FINAL ISSUE. I also have FORD info as stating the -AA was BIRD ASSY and -AB was FORD ASSY - PHASE 1.

PHASE 2 used -AB on either assembly and -AA was later replaced by -AB.

Either CARB -AA / -AB could have not been used on any assy other than SC as the CARB CALIB was unique for boost. The only way it could have been used on a POLICE VEHICLE is if the POLICE PACKAGE was ordered with the SC engine (PHASE 2).

I would post all of this but my scanner is on hiatus (and I have my good clothes on and can't get them dirty fighting).

Now, I need to know if the ASSY DATE CODE was stamped on the fuel bowl cover (9524) on the raised portion please ...

[KULTULZ]

Does anyone have the shown 1957 SC Manual?




If so, does it give PHASE 1 and/or 2 info, especially relating to carburetion?

EDIT -

Ah, I see the board is up to it's old tricks with Ill's ...

[scicala]

I asked the EBAY seller what the date code is. He said "621". That is the first week of Feb. 1956. Doesn't make sense. Sounds way too early, but maybe they did build them that early. I kind of doubt it though.
My gutt feeling is that the carb has been worked on somewhere along the line and the bowl cover was changed.
Doesn't help answer any questions, but does add to the confusion.


Sal

[scicala]

This link is to an interesting article from Amos Minter about the Phase 1 D/F birds.
Says all 15 cars were built on Jan. 25th, 1957. Hand built at Dearborn Assembly Plant.


Sal


https://www.amosminter.com/1957_White_Supercharge_1.php

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by scicala

I asked the EBAY seller what the date code is. He said "621". That is the first week of Feb. 1956. Doesn't make sense. Sounds way too early, but maybe they did build them that early. I kind of doubt it though.

My gutt feeling is that the carb has been worked on somewhere along the line and the bowl cover was changed.

Doesn't help answer any questions, but does add to the confusion.

Sal

THANX! for that effort/info Sal.

What it does in invalidate the claim it is 100% factory correct (IMO).

[scicala]

KULTULZ,


Yes, I would say it's not 100% correct parts because I took another look at the pictures. The bowl covers were changed for different venting in the late 1956 model year, and all carbs forward of that had the revised bowl covers. The carb in the EBAY auction has the old style bowl cover. All of the supercharger carbs I've seen had the revised new bowl covers.
Not a big deal to replace, since all 4000 model teapot carbs for Ford had the same bowl cover for the end of the '56 model year. Fairly common to find.


Sal

[scicala]

I also told the EBAY seller what was up with the bowl cover. I doubt he will edit the auction though.


Sal

[KULTULZ]

And now this-

The very first factory-sponsored supercharged Thunderbirds were actually 1956 models built by Peter DePaolo Engineering in Long Beach, Calif. Several 1957 Thunderbirds were then similarly modified for racing.

SOURCE- This article is from the Standard Guide to American Muscle Cars by John Gunnell (Krause Publications)


Who's to say? I doubt if all facts will come to light as most have been lost or forgotten. And then you have the naysayers that add their spin.

There has to be HOLLEY documentation somewhere that will answer when the blow-thru carbs were first offered.

I also believe there was factory racing and racing team fabrications and they were separate.

[KULTULZ]

And here is yet another song and dance-

1957 Ford Thunderbird D/F-Code Phase I

For the 1957 Daytona Speed Weeks, Ford prepared an armada of special cars including 15 supercharged versions of the Thunderbird. That weekend Harold Mauck ran 138.755 mph for the Two-Way Flying Mile and Ford subsequently put the F-Code supercharged Thunderbird into production.

The D/F-Code was part of a Ford Motor Company Supercharger Program to homologate Ford’s superchargers into NASCAR. As part of 100 supercharged cars, they made 15 Thunderbirds. These had their radio, heater, clock and lighter deleted as well as black tires, no fender skirts and small hubcaps.

All 15 cars were built on January 25, 1957 using a single carburetor engine, McCulloch VR57 Phase 1 supercharger and a heavy duty three-speed manual transmission.

Later that year, Ford offered the F-Code Thunderbird which used the same Paxton-McCulloch VR57 supercharger, supercharger but with the full array of options

SOURCE- www.supercars.net/blog/1957-ford-thunderbird-df-code-phase/


So when you see a supposed D/F CODE BIRD with full trim, it is not a survivor or claimed restoration but a resto-mod.

[scicala]

Think I may give up for now. The '57 Bird that Amos Minter is claiming to be one of the 15 D/F birds is loaded with options like power windows and seat, skirts and full wheel covers.
Not exactly a stripped radio and heater delete car as described it should be.
Gets pretty confusing to me, since Amos is the premier T-Bird restorer in the country.


Sal

[KULTULZ]

Yeah, this subject for the rich kids. I never got even close to a version. It goes to show what all types of facts and myths are floating.


Why would FOMOCO build a fully optioned race car? I doubt they made a profit on the PHASE 1 cars, just trying to make it NASCAR legal.

[KULTULZ]

NASCAR's Grand National race series had started to gain traction in the South. Carl Kiekhaefer's Chryslers and Chevrolet's new lightweight V-8 threatened to end Ford's stock car racing dominance in the South. So in 1955, Ford's Robert McNamara turned to one of his advisors, Harley Copp, a racing enthusiast, to see how they could remedy the situation. Copp suggested they hire DePaolo to form a stock car program for Ford. DePaolo's success came not so much in running the program as making smart hiring decisions.

As Tom Cotter and Al Pearce wrote in Holman-Moody: the Legendary Race Team, DePaolo technically owned the whole operation, called DePaolo Engineering, to keep Ford from appearing to support racing. "DePaolo did the hiring and firing, and built the specialty parts and pieces needed for racing," Cotter and Pearce wrote.

But DePaolo wanted to base the program in Southern California, to stay close to Bill Stroppe's operations (see HMM#61), and only reluctantly established a shop in Charlotte, North Carolina. Nor did DePaolo directly run the program: He still kept an office in California and hired driver-mechanic Buddy Shuman (and then Red Vogt after Shuman died in a hotel fire) to actually run the Charlotte operation. At the urging of Ford executives, DePaolo also kept a promising driver named Ralph Moody (see HMM#21) on the payroll, but made one key decision in May of 1956 when Stroppe's parts truck driver walked into his office in Los Angeles and asked for a job.

DePaolo recognized John Holman's outstanding knack for organization and decided then and there to hire Holman to replace Vogt. Under Stroppe's management, DePaolo Engineering finally started to win races a month later, and with nine checkered flags from the team, Ford took the NASCAR manufacturer's championship that year.

DePaolo Engineering even had a hand in building one of the famed Battlebird '57 Thunderbirds.

SOURCE- https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mu...o/1797835.html


__________________________________________________ ______________________


So, I had been dating my future wife for about a month and decided I would try and take it a little further. I asked if she had ever been to a DRIVE-IN MOVIE and she said no, but would like to see one …

As we sat there, I decided to make my move. We sparked and spooned for a while and I asked if she wanted to get in the back seat. She whispered no, so I decided to keep working on her. I could see that she was responding to my bar-stool Casanova techniques.

Again, I softly asked, and she whispered no. I asked her why and she said she wanted to stay up front with me …

[RPM RON]

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