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09-15-2019, 09:50 PM | #1 |
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Ignition timing
1947 59A standard ignition
Looking down on the distributor sitting on my bench. The vacuum brake is at the top. The right ignition point gauges at about .015. Which is in spec. The left one, however, gauges at .009 or a little less. What effect does the smaller gap have, if any, on the timing? What effect does the smaller gap have, if any, on anything else? |
09-16-2019, 07:08 AM | #2 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Smaller gaps delay or retard timing. Gaps too small can reduced point life and foul or shunt as a result of corrosion/erosion/dirt.
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09-16-2019, 07:37 AM | #3 |
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Re: Ignition timing
The points are NOT set with a feeler gauge. They are
on a Ford~Heyer strobe machine on a dwell meter. G.M.
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09-16-2019, 08:43 AM | #4 |
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Re: Ignition timing
There are other ways to do this, such as a sun distributor machine or a k. r. Wilson timing fixture. My ford service manual calls for .014 to .016 setting and shows how to set the points using a straight edge.
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09-16-2019, 09:47 AM | #5 |
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Re: Ignition timing
When set up on a sun machine,the right points are adj. to an initial dwell with the left ones blocked off with a piece of fiber such as a match pack. That is then removed and the total dwell is set buy adj. the left set.
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09-16-2019, 03:37 PM | #6 |
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Re: Ignition timing
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Last edited by FlatheadTed; 09-16-2019 at 06:24 PM. |
09-16-2019, 09:09 PM | #7 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Anyone have a pic of the straightedge method? I remember seeing it in one of the books I have somewhere. Thanks
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
09-16-2019, 09:36 PM | #8 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Some of the early edition Motor Manuals have it in them probably before 1949.
Those manuals dont bring a lot of money |
09-16-2019, 09:38 PM | #9 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Look on VanPelts site.
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09-16-2019, 11:23 PM | #10 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Here's some tips
http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/flathead.htm Distributor timing .32to 48 timing fixture don't need em , |
09-16-2019, 11:57 PM | #11 |
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Re: Ignition timing
If you are using quality points although not ideal you could set them by gap not dwell. If you are using cheap quality points it’s a crap shoot. Send it to someone with a sun machine and for little to no money they can adjust to the proper dwell and set the timing.
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09-17-2019, 05:17 PM | #12 |
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Re: Ignition timing
There are static jigs around for setting the dwell, there are two on ebay now,exspensive though.
keep a lookout for them . Lawrie |
09-17-2019, 07:29 PM | #13 |
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Re: Ignition timing
I am a poor guy, I set mine with a set of feeler gauges, like my Dad did before me all the way up till mid 70s when Dad 75 Lincoln.
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09-17-2019, 07:36 PM | #14 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Ya' know, I was in your camp until about 3 months ago, when I replaced the points on the Mallory dual point on the '51 Merc in my '51 Ford. For some reason, that particular setup didn't have the little slots they usually have where you can insert a small screwdriver to move the points a little bit at a time. I bought an old universal dwell/tach meter off of eBay for $20. Now I realize I should have done it 50 years ago.
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09-18-2019, 09:45 AM | #15 |
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Re: Ignition timing
One of the problems in these discussions is terminology.
TIMING an early flathead distributor is a little different than TESTING a distributor. TIMING involves setting the dwell and adjusting the initial advance. TESTING means checking the distributor for wear, bad parts, faulty operation, etc. TIMNG and TESTING can be done at the same time ... with aging distributors and questionable new parts, it's a good idea. BUT, claiming that one cannot TIME a flathead distributor using feeler gauges to set the dwell ... ? THINK about it. Ford designed, patented and produced the distributor with the intent of having points set with feeler gauges. Ford did not design it so that owners had to send their distributors to G.M. and Skip Haney to be timed.:roll eyes: The misinformation, much from using the wrong descriptions, has given the distributors a bad reputation. Am all for testing distributors. But, when someone asks how to time one, please give a knowledgable answer.
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09-18-2019, 09:54 AM | #16 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Hoop i would agree with that last part if all we used were genuine Ford parts. Ever set up a 32-36 with a feeler gauge using reproduction points and checked the dwell?
The 49 and later guys and 4/6 cylinder guys should have no issues using a feeler gauge to set dwell |
09-18-2019, 10:19 AM | #17 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Michael,
The "knowledgable answer" would include exactly what you've said. Further, there is no guarantee that sending your distributor out for rebuilding will have it TIMED correctly. That includes units that have been "set up" on Sun or Allen strobers and the rebuilder does not understand initial advance. There are a bunch of guys running around losing 20% or more of their advance because of improper settings. I know you are well aware of the issue and that distributors leave your shop correctly set.
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09-18-2019, 10:27 AM | #18 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Hoop,
Yes I agree. I tested many “rebuilt” distributors that the initial timing was not set they just seemed to guess at it. |
09-18-2019, 10:34 AM | #19 |
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Re: Ignition timing
That's how I do it. Also what Bubba recommends.
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09-18-2019, 12:14 PM | #20 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Also the way Ford recommends.
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09-18-2019, 12:17 PM | #21 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Thank you, Phillip, for making my point on terminology.
The left-hand (LH) points are adjusted first ... not the right-hand (RH). The position of the points is determined by the distributor being installed and viewed from sitting in the driver's seat. The LH side of the vehicle is always the left side. Not sure what instructions you are using, but I really don't think Bubba does it RH first. When you set the points (I think you're just mixing up LH/RH), how do you set the initial advance?
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09-18-2019, 01:12 PM | #22 |
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Re: Ignition timing
AGREED , THE MACHINE IS NICE BUT THERES MILLIONS SET WITH FEELER GAUGES. AND ALWAYS WILL BE.....
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09-18-2019, 01:40 PM | #23 |
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Re: Ignition timing
I'm not sure if Ford intended the pre 49 V8 points to be set with feeler gauges. I think they intended them to be set at a dealers on a setting fixture. That said, setting each pair to 15 thou will get the car down the road, and for any non performance application, the average driver would not notice anything wrong.
The next time I use my setting fixture I'll measure the points gaps and report what they are. For any non performance application, the lumbering old flatty is probably the least finnicky to things like dwell. Advance it until it pings and back it off until it doesn't. What they don't like is running retarded. I had a French flatty, with a distributor like a 8BA, vac advance only. The vac unit had failed, so I had no advance at all. The first long journey, (actually driving it home) it overheated after about an hour. Once everything was repaired it would run all day long. Mart. |
09-18-2019, 01:56 PM | #24 | |
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Re: Ignition timing
Quote:
Glad you jumped in , this thread is out of shape. Had surgery on my arm (for dialysis port) monday and just didnt want to type. I call these "thread drifts" thats when a thread or discussion just is full of non factual info. Good job hoop!!!!!!!! |
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09-18-2019, 02:38 PM | #25 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Bubba, a heap of blessings on your arm.
As you know, folks repeat what they think is correct. Let's pick on Mart ... he's a great contributor ... and examine what he posted in all good faith. "I'm not sure if Ford intended the pre 49 V8 points to be set with feeler gauges." As a matter of historical accuracy, let's look down below at Ford's patent for the helmet distributor. The original intent was for the operator/owner/mechanic to time the distributor using a "timing plate" (fixture) mounted on the "dash" (firewall) of the vehicle. The operator needed no special skill. It is a GUESS that a specified gap was set using feeler gauges but it was universal practice at the time. It is not mentioned in the patent but gapping points was as common as gapping plugs. Imagine Farmer Brown having to go into town to the dealer to have his points changed ... unlike his previous Fords which he did himself. Or, imagine Bonnie and Clyde bringing in their '34 Ford for a tune up. Here's a good read: https://patents.google.com/patent/US1963657A/en
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"Remember that when it comes to intelligence, half of all of us are below average." Last edited by Hoop; 09-18-2019 at 03:39 PM. Reason: typo |
09-18-2019, 02:57 PM | #26 |
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Re: Ignition timing
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I did go on to say feeler gauges are probably as good as anything for most non performance applications. |
09-18-2019, 04:25 PM | #27 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Right on Hoop. I was raised in my fathers shop when these were the king of the roads.
Not knittin pickin but most now their parents wasn't even born yet. We just got over very hard times WWII the ole man serviced many many Model A's pre war V8s. I still have the Standard ignition wall cabinet still loaded with points, condensers, rotors from the 30s and 40s. What I am trying to say back then No body but No body had a strobe, fixture, or the Sun machine that did it all. We were all mom & pop garages broke but better than picken corn. My fathers profit margin on a gallon of gas was 1 cent. But I always had good school clothes and toys. So customers for a tune up & oil change would come to any local garage. Guess they couldn't afford the dealer. So while I watched now embedded in my head pop took off the right top radiator hose (tin can catch water) remove fan comes right out with no hose in the way, remove distributor replace points set .015 replace all parts back on, then out the door. Thats the way I do it now and 70 yrs later, and my car runs perfectly. Not wise guy, but I find people now are all got their minds wrapped up with math and tech stuff. How many just used a match book cover to set points? from my generation, about every body when a simple feeler gauge was something in a Sears wish book LOL but true ........ |
09-18-2019, 04:37 PM | #28 |
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Re: Ignition timing
My post is just my observations of what they appeared to do in the Ford factory ,maybe just a partial video
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09-18-2019, 07:30 PM | #29 |
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Re: Ignition timing
Hey big job, so one question. What is a matchbook?
Never mind I found them on ebay, used.
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09-18-2019, 07:58 PM | #30 |
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Re: Ignition timing
I think this is why Big Job doesn't have a problem.
I have the Standard ignition wall cabinet still loaded with points, condensers, rotors from the 30s and 40s. |
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