Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-25-2010, 11:17 PM   #1
Roadster62
Senior Member
 
Roadster62's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ridgefield, Ct
Posts: 3,439
Default PROPER Frame Paint

With all the talk of "Over restored" frames just what is the proper paint to use, gloss wise? Is there an ACME Proper A Chassis Paint #_ _ _ _ I can get from the local auto paint guy?
Roadster62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2010, 11:28 PM   #2
Doug in NJ
Senior Member
 
Doug in NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 965
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

People seem to use all sorts of things. I have seen postings form people saying they used everything from Rustoleum to PPG Concept. The most important rule seems to be to avoid glossy paint. You also have to consider the fact that different parts of the chassis were parented differently, for example, the running board brackets were painted before being rivited in place.

Doug
__________________
My '31 S/W sedan project:http://31ford.dougbraun.com
My restoration diary: http://dougbraun.com/blog
Doug in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 07-26-2010, 12:02 AM   #3
Brubaker
Senior Member
 
Brubaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 765
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Doug that's a good point. So if the running board brackets originally were black(dipped), then they should be a glossy black?.
Bruce
Brubaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2010, 12:39 AM   #4
Mike V. Florida
Senior Member
 
Mike V. Florida's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Florida
Posts: 14,054
Send a message via AIM to Mike V. Florida
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Here is a chart that is on Marco's site and in the Standards book, it should help.

Chassis Finishes
__________________
What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II
Mike V. Florida is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2010, 11:11 AM   #5
glenn in camino
Senior Member
 
glenn in camino's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Camino, CA.
Posts: 3,086
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

During the assembly process the chassis got dinged and scratched. They were touched up with proxlin lacquer spray. Sounds messy but once the body was mounted hardly anyone ever looked at the chassis again much less judged it's finish. Right or wrong, I like gloss black chassis and lots of cad plated nuts and bolts. Just my preference.
glenn in camino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2010, 05:00 PM   #6
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 11,486
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
While I am definitely NOT trying to mess with your intelligence nor belittle in any way, have you thought about reading what published research is out there (i.e.: Marco's site mentioned above) and then think this through on how you could accurately duplicate it? Try it and see what you come up with! I think it will surprise you. I actually did this a few years ago as an experiment and the outcome will likely have surprised most judges who were critiquing undercarriages this year at French Lick.

If you are still struggling with this idea, mix up some bituminous tar (crushed-up roofing tar?) with some home-made Japan Black and mineral spirits, ...and apply it to some structural metal. You will need to determine the proper way that it would have been applied with a sprayer, and the likely consistancy. Next, dip some brackets in a tub filled with warm water and a layer of Black alkyd enamel paint and then force dry them, --and next use some cheap Black lacquer spray paint to mimick overspraying the scratches and bare areas. What you will find interesting is how the frame coating will seem thick just by the nature of the product.

THEN, one needs to determine at "what point" the chassis is being judged (time after the chassis was initially coated). I found the tar-based coating had a different sheen when it still had the mineral spirits mixed in, ...but the sheen changed as the solvents evaporated off. I should also say that my method had no real scientific basis for knowing the original consistancy of the frame coating, nor do I know exactly how it was applied. Therefore the results of your experiment may have a totally different outcome or look, however I am of the belief that anyone who needs to form an opinion on what it originally looked like should do something similar to my experiment first to have proper visual knowledge on the paint texture and/or sheen.

.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.

Last edited by BRENT in 10-uh-C; 07-26-2010 at 05:02 PM. Reason: can't spell!! ;)
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 12:42 AM   #7
Roadster62
Senior Member
 
Roadster62's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ridgefield, Ct
Posts: 3,439
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Thanks Brent, I just thought someone would say 9 out of 12 MARC MAFCA award winners used XXXX Chassis Black and the Judges all love it and use it on their restorations.
Roadster62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 12:56 AM   #8
Ron in Quincy
Senior Member
 
Ron in Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Quincy, CA.
Posts: 1,708
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Recently one of our members had his frame powder coated, instead of the gloss black finish he had it powder coated in satin black; it looks great, and looks much more like the original Ford finish; he was building a Speedster.

Just somthing to consider that will certainly hold up to the weather.

Ron
Ron in Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 07:16 AM   #9
Roadster62
Senior Member
 
Roadster62's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ridgefield, Ct
Posts: 3,439
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Thanks Ron, For the record I think powder coating anything but pattio furnature looks like crap, I wouldn't use it on a Chevy and never on a Ford.
Roadster62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 08:01 AM   #10
TechNova
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Strawbridge, WI
Posts: 48
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadster62 View Post
Thanks Ron, For the record I think powder coating anything but pattio furnature looks like crap, I wouldn't use it on a Chevy and never on a Ford.

Then you have never seen it done right.
TechNova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 10:11 AM   #11
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 11,486
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechNova View Post
Then you have never seen it done right.
I also agree, ...but then again, variety is the spice of life??
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 11:21 AM   #12
Charlie Stephens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 7,017
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadster62 View Post
Thanks Ron, For the record I think powder coating anything but pattio furnature looks like crap, I wouldn't use it on a Chevy and never on a Ford.
I had the wheels on my '31 RDPU powder coated gloss black. If I ever take it apart the frame will be powder coated. What powder coat are you looking at, something that you did in your wife's oven? I must admit that one local company that did "cheap" powder coating produced a product that looked terrible (and probably didn't last).

Charlie Stephens
Charlie Stephens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 11:55 AM   #13
Jim Mason
Senior Member
 
Jim Mason's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 910
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

When judging undercarriage I looked for three levels of gloss. Take a look at Marco's site to get the feel for it. E.G. Dipped stampings were glossy, forging a different level and frames a third (some feel four levels are better, btw. I like a flatter finish than most.

Brent, my experiments with asphaltum (diffent than asphalt) showed that the coating was water thin, and had almost zero build up. The mix I made for the carb also has amber, and rosin in it. When looking square on it is dead flat, but any angled viewing shows a moderate gloss...fwiw,jm
Jim Mason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 12:20 PM   #14
Ron in Quincy
Senior Member
 
Ron in Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Quincy, CA.
Posts: 1,708
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

I asked the powder coater if there was any difference in the way different coaters did the job as some wheels look crapy and the wheels he does has a much nicer finish. He said powder coating material is expensive so some powder coaters only put on about 2 mill thickness so it goes furthur, " I put on 4 mill thickness". Another thing , the coater does his own blasting because he wants a rough finish to the metal so the powder coating penerates and adhears. He said a bead blasted serface is too smooth so don't go to the trouble to bead blast before bringing items for powder coating.

Have any of you been told this information ?

Ron
Ron in Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 01:03 PM   #15
d.j. moordigian
Senior Member
 
d.j. moordigian's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fresno, Ca.
Posts: 3,636
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

My unrestored frame has spots with paint, it is not thick, to see or touch.
I did a test piece( rear motor mount ) that hung on the cloths line for one year,
rain or shine, bird crap and all. I showed it to a well respected person on this
forum who said it was " very close ". It was painted with Rustoleum.

Ron..I consider your statement correct.

Dudley
d.j. moordigian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 05:05 PM   #16
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 11,486
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Mason View Post
Brent, my experiments with asphaltum (diffent than asphalt) showed that the coating was water thin, and had almost zero build up. The mix I made for the carb also has amber, and rosin in it. When looking square on it is dead flat, but any angled viewing shows a moderate gloss...fwiw,jm
That is fine Jim as it is possible my mixture was not the same as yours however I think both of us could make a valid argument that each of us are correct in our expectations. The 3rd paragraph down on page 16 in the Paint & Refinish Guide (3rd Edition) makes clear reference of this.


.


Ron, just like preparing a meal, every cook has their own way of baking the casserole. I personally prefer a smooth finish to apply powder to. IMPO, if it is top quality powder and the powder has been finely milled, it will flow into those tiny cracks & crevises to "latch on". Many industrial items are steel fresh from the mill that only receive a degreasing prior to applying powder. Those items hold up well, even in harsh environments. Something else to consider. Applying powdered paint to a piece of tin foil and then doing a cure will cause someone to really work at pealing it off. If the surface of tin foil is that smooth and yet the paint is still able to "tooth", imagine when it is applied to a slightly more aggressive surface.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 08:15 PM   #17
Roadster62
Senior Member
 
Roadster62's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ridgefield, Ct
Posts: 3,439
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

I'm reposting the question again, hoping someone will understand that I'd like to know what PAINT looks best and would look like a showroom new 1930 Ford.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadster62 View Post
With all the talk of "Over restored" frames just what is the proper paint to use, gloss wise? Is there an ACME Proper A Chassis Paint #_ _ _ _ I can get from the local auto paint guy?
Roadster62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 08:50 PM   #18
TechNova
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Strawbridge, WI
Posts: 48
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron in Quincy View Post
I asked the powder coater if there was any difference in the way different coaters did the job as some wheels look crapy and the wheels he does has a much nicer finish. He said powder coating material is expensive so some powder coaters only put on about 2 mill thickness so it goes furthur, " I put on 4 mill thickness". Another thing , the coater does his own blasting because he wants a rough finish to the metal so the powder coating penerates and adhears. He said a bead blasted serface is too smooth so don't go to the trouble to bead blast before bringing items for powder coating.

Have any of you been told this information ?

Ron
I worked for a major manufacturer with a multi million dollar powder operation. I have also dealt with a smaller operation doing powder.
Prep is extremely important, sandblast or steel shot blast with a Wheelabrator.
we had multiple stage wash system, I seem to remember 7 stages. Experienced painters and a big oven. The mils were checked when done and recorded on the painter's record. Oven speed and temp were also very important.
Poor prep or not enough powder and it isn't going to look or work right.
TechNova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 01:33 AM   #19
Roadster62
Senior Member
 
Roadster62's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ridgefield, Ct
Posts: 3,439
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

I'm begining to think the powder people all belong to the same political party.
Roadster62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 06:11 AM   #20
Jim Mason
Senior Member
 
Jim Mason's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 910
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

I don't believe that you will get an answer to 'what is the best paint'. There has been any number of paints that have been used in restorations that have the correct look (in the eye of the painter) and probably would score well (if that's your goal). The best paint or paints for you is the one you can obtain, are comfortable working with, and you can get at least three levels of gloss. It can be done with PPG, and other high grade paints, as well as 'rustoleum' type paints. I don't think you can do it with powder, unless you can really work with the coater to control the thickness. (you want the manufacturing marks to show) You will have to look at the standards, Marco's site, high point cars, etc and make a decision on the level of gloss that is best for you and what you can work with...fwiw,jm
Jim Mason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 06:49 AM   #21
Keith True
Senior Member
 
Keith True's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Epping N.H.
Posts: 2,969
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

In the late 70's I bought three very original chassis that came out of Canada.A chicken farmer in town was up there for some reason with his truck,and brought back two roadsters and one coupe.They had always been under cover,but pretty well stripped of fenders,hoods,and radiators.The bodies were promptly sold for hot rods.He tried to sell them to A guys,but was told they were too incomplete to restore.He was going to scrap the chassis so I got them for a few dollars over scrap price.Those frames were nearly perfect,all had bent front horns,but no corrosion ever,and the bodies were never off until he took them apart.The paint on them was thin in a lot of places,but it was almost gummy where it was still thick.It also leaned toward brown,nothing like rustoleum brown,but more of an off black.There was actually mill scale under the paint in spots.The running board brackets were black,but the rivets were rusty,like they never were painted.Once the sun got to those frames for a few weeks the paint started to chalk,and turn to powder.Another thing,nothing to do with the paint,not one of those frames had a serial number stamped into them.
Keith True is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 07:27 AM   #22
Roadster62
Senior Member
 
Roadster62's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ridgefield, Ct
Posts: 3,439
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Thanks Keith!
Roadster62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 07-29-2010, 11:24 AM   #23
d.j. moordigian
Senior Member
 
d.j. moordigian's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fresno, Ca.
Posts: 3,636
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Jim, Brent;

I understand what you are saying, studying, looking at original pictures and looking at a fine point car. Would you give us the 4 points of gloss and examples of which parts
it would apply to? This is much better than the MELT DOWN of three weeks ago, I see
some light at the end of the tunnel.

Thank you, Dudley
d.j. moordigian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 03:02 PM   #24
Ken Ehrenhofer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Woodstock, Illinois
Posts: 597
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

I use PPG Concept and it works great! yes it is glossy and over time it will dull down a little. If I was building a show car I would use a little flattener to degloss a little so it does not look so shiny,
In order to go a little cheaper they also have an Omni brand that also works very well.
IMHO
Ken
Ken Ehrenhofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 11:45 PM   #25
TechNova
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Strawbridge, WI
Posts: 48
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ehrenhofer View Post
I use PPG Concept and it works great! yes it is glossy and over time it will dull down a little. If I was building a show car I would use a little flattener to degloss a little so it does not look so shiny,
In order to go a little cheaper they also have an Omni brand that also works very well.
IMHO
Ken
I did my frame with powder and have been matching it with PPG's Commercial performance Coatings AUE-100 single stage with a flattener to get about 70% gloss. This matches my powder very well.
I have been using PPG CPC EPX-900 series epoxy primer and AUE-100 single stage on many projects, I have a different flattener ratio for my Nova and Chevelle undersides. I can get the 70% formula if someone wants it.
The AUE-100 is about $65/ gallon with hardener. Much cheaper than Concept.
I am a professional body tech and have used AUE many times over the years, not a high gloss for exterior of cars, but great for frames, trailers and equipment.
TechNova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2010, 11:35 AM   #26
Brubaker
Senior Member
 
Brubaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 765
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Tech, When you powdered the frame, did you have an option on the 'glossiness'? Can powder coat be done at 70% gloss?
Brubaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2010, 05:17 PM   #27
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 11,486
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brubaker View Post
Tech, When you powdered the frame, did you have an option on the 'glossiness'? Can powder coat be done at 70% gloss?
All the way down to 15% gloss.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2010, 07:38 PM   #28
TechNova
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Strawbridge, WI
Posts: 48
Default Re: PROPER Frame Paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brubaker View Post
Tech, When you powdered the frame, did you have an option on the 'glossiness'? Can powder coat be done at 70% gloss?
Yes, it can be varied. The standard every day black we did was 70% for snow plow frames. I liked the look for the Model A frame. Because we were a large company there was a minimum amount of powder you had to buy for non-standard colors. It takes alot of time to purge lines and clean the booth for a color change. Other job shop types have different systems that allow easy color change and no minimums.
Since I like the 70% it cost me much less, less than I can wet spray for.
TechNova is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:26 AM.