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Old 11-03-2019, 09:20 PM   #1
thom
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Default #1 cylinder not doing it's share

I drove our '21 Touring, with it's fresh engine, having 40 hours max on it, about a mile to the local store and when I cranked it to start home it was running on three cylinders. Shorting out the plugs, one at a time revealed that # 1 was the problem. The spark however, was strong on all four. After removing the front side cover I can see that the #1 exhaust valve is not closing. At first I was prepared to remove the head and replace the valve, spring, and keeper(s). But I suppose I will try to get some lube into the plug hole to the valve stem and try to free it up. I hope the valve seat is still in place. There was no noise when the problem began and now when the engine runs on three cylinders, so maybe the seat is intact.
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Old 11-03-2019, 10:03 PM   #2
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

You should be able to see thru the spark plug hole if it is.
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Old 11-04-2019, 12:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Can you get it to move with a lever between the valve foot and tappet. It just might free up. If it does add some Marvel Mystery Oil to the gas to keep it free. Do you know for certain there are added seats?
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Old 11-04-2019, 08:07 AM   #4
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

I put something between the lifter and the valve and it will move a little in both directions so it is not stuck tight, tight. I will put some lube in the valve stem and try freeing it up before I remove the head. I have made arrangements to take the car and have the top installed soon so I need to get it going again.
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Old 11-05-2019, 02:33 PM   #5
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Here's the problem. I've already ordered a new valve from Lang's.
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Old 11-05-2019, 04:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Do you have any idea what caused that to happen?
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

What happened to the other piece? The old two piece valves were not the best design. The holes for the assembly process can be a potential problem with cracking and the cast heads can get brittle with time.

This thread has some info from the model T forum.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1518310515

Last edited by rotorwrench; 11-05-2019 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Fresh engine? I would have a talk with your mechanic.
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Old 11-05-2019, 08:17 PM   #9
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

I cannot talk to the rebuilder. I bought the car about three years ago. It came from middle Tennessee and the engine , I'm told, was rebuilt by someone in the Knoxville area, probably several years before I got the car. The engine had never been started when I got it. The head had not been "torqued" down so I removed it and looked at the pistons and valves. The pistons were obviously new oversized, and the valves appeared to be new, possibly NOS Ford. I removed the inspection cover on the oil pan and everything in the lower end was new too. The engine has ran great thus far. I will see how the new valve fits when it arrives and may order seven more to replace them all.
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Yeah, i figured it'd be something like that. Mine did that, but it was spitting valve seat out the exhaust.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Looks like I'll be replacing all the valves with new ones and I will be grinding the stems to fit, although I have adjustable lifters. I wonder if I can get a new stone for my bench grinder that will do the job? The new valves will be stainless.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:54 AM   #12
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Most of the old valve grinders from the 1960s & prior have a set up on one end to face the stems. At least that way the facing is concentric and relatively accurate. I'd hesitate to grind stems with out some sort of similar fixture and a fine grinder wheel for a nice finish. Having a good way to true up the grinding wheel now and then is also a good idea. A person could rigg up a grinding set up if they have the means. Even a bench top disc sander could be utilized with some ingenuity. You certainly don't want to take off too much unless you have a valve seat grinder.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Something helpful, Glen Chaffin had a response on the MTFCA forum several years ago and can be looked up for reference about proper procedure of valve adjustment. Setting valve clearance, a simple procedure I believe it was september 2007. Timing valves by piston travel is a waste of time and causes other problems as stated in Glens procedure.

Also check out Mike Benders video's model T-tips he has a good one on valves and adjustable lifters ect. Let us know how you make out.

Neway manufacturing offers 60, 45 and 30 seat resurface tools I used for my block, no inserts. I have several Sioux valve grinders and able to fit my new valves to my adjustable lifters. A magnetic base and dial gauge is helpful when setting lash.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:51 AM   #14
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Thom, Before you buy the new valves check the size of the stems. Tee' s will wear the valve guides, (the block), and you will have to use larger stems, good luck, Chuck.
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:46 PM   #15
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck stevens View Post
Thom, Before you buy the new valves check the size of the stems. Tee' s will wear the valve guides, (the block), and you will have to use larger stems, good luck, Chuck.
That is a great point Chuck, standard size is .312 I think the allowable wear is 6-8 thou, 1/64 (.015) oversize and then 1/32 (.030) oversize. A small bore gauge works great for checking this and if needed oversize reamers for installing the oversize stems.
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Old 11-09-2019, 12:21 AM   #16
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

I do not have access to afore mentioned article about adjusting valves by piston travel. I have been doing it for years as per MTFOA bookwith good results. Why is no longer recommended?
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Old 11-09-2019, 06:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordwife View Post
I do not have access to afore mentioned article about adjusting valves by piston travel. I have been doing it for years as per MTFOA bookwith good results. Why is no longer recommended?
So you are able to post here on the Fordbarn but cannot access a topic related to model T valves that is also on the internet

Hey what ever works for You keep doing it, enjoy your weekend and Happy Veterans Day monday for those of us that have served OOHRah! and Happy Birthday sunday USMC.

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Old 11-09-2019, 10:09 AM   #18
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

This is a link to Mike Bender's videos. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz9...-WMvuRQ/videos

This is a link to Glen's valve adjustement procedure or at least one procedure.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1314751773

This is a link to discussion about setting valves by piston travel.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1478454120
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Old 11-09-2019, 09:24 PM   #19
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

The one valve that I ordered finally came. It fits the stem fine. I think the adjustable lifter will take up enough so I won't have to grind the stem. If not I will take all the new valves , when I get them, to the machine shop and have a few thou taken off.
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Old 11-10-2019, 04:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

The net gain doing the valve gaps by piston travel is small and can end up with large gaps (could be as high as .035 and up) for nosier valve train. Piston travel was used with worn cam lobes and lifters that had cups worn in them where you could not set gap with feeler gauges and block that never was surfaced.
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Old 11-16-2019, 09:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

I have eight new valves now but have not yet removed all the old ones. The ones I have removed and checked with a new one don't have enough clearance even with the adjustable lifters run all the way down. I suppose I will take them to the local machine shop and have some taken off, but how much should I have removed? I don't know how much adjustment adjustable lifters have built in them.
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:03 PM   #22
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

Sorry but, without us being there to see whats what, the only suggestion would be to check the total length of the old valves and have the new ones ground to an average length. As long as there is some stem between the spring keepers and end you should be ok. Take the minimum off and still be able to adjust for gap. Depending on how deep the valve sits in the block, you may or may not need to take a little more off. Even with original valve setup, stem grinding was part of getting new valves.
To add to this, not all lifters are the same. I have an set that was short two and found replacements. The two I found are taller then the rest so and to grind the stems to fit those two. That goes to illustrate that there is no magic number to pass on.
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Old 11-18-2019, 10:06 AM   #23
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

If the removed valves were in the middle of the adjustment range dictated by the adjustable followers then their length could be used but I would measure them all and find an average to settle upon. It's not too late to check this before the grinding process begins. The measurement should be taken from the top of the valve seating surface and not the overall length. A person can only use overall length if they compare with the new valves. Wear and resurfacing can take a lot away from the face of an old valve. Hopefully, most of your old valves are the same length. I have tools for measuring distance from the valve seat to the follower but not all shops have the old flathead stuff.

Are your new valves pin type keeper or tapered lock type?. I also worry about valves that are all stainless steel. The stems can sometimes gall on these unless there is plenty of clearance with the guide. Snyder's recommends .010" clearance but that is more than I would like. If the guides are relined with brass or bronze sleeves then they won't gall. If the stems are steel and the heads are stainless then there is no problem. A magnet will tell. Some folks use the Ford Y-block valves but they are tapered lock type. If you prefer pin type then those are out. There are also oversize valve stem concerns. Later engines don't go oversize. Talk to your machinist and find out if he is experienced with this antiquated way of engine valve work. It would help if they are experienced and know what to watch out for. Hopefully your tappets are all a good fit in their bores. They have oversizes for them too.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 11-18-2019 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:05 AM   #24
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

RE; Snyder's recommends .010" clearance but that is more than I would like.
The is the lifter to stem gap not the stem to guide clearance.



For stem size new valves; Original style with the pin; they are made for one of 3 sizes std, .015 OS and .030 OS. The reams sold for the two over size, I have had no issues with the original style replacement valve using the ream as sold in the engines I have rebuilt for customers with the stock cast iron guides.
The modern type sold in most catalogs is .030 OS but the catalogs list a different ream for them so would guess not quite the same as the pin type .030 OS.
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Old 11-18-2019, 06:10 PM   #25
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

I was interpreting that wrong although it wasn't too clear about the clearance they were mentioning but the .010" makes sense for stem to tappet clearance. It's way too much for stem to guide clearance for sure. A lot of folks think stainless steel is harder then carbon steel. Structurally, it's certainly hard enough but the surface is softer than steel and that's where the galling comes from. I guess with modern computer aided machines, it's cheaper to machine the whole valve but that seems kind of wasteful to me. That was the reason Charles Thompson developed the welding process.

With the aircraft engines, we used stainless stem valves for a while but they had to have the bronze guides due to galling. They went back to steel stems and high chrome steel guides and that works very well with minimal wear.

Flathead V8 engines have had some valve stems gall using the new all stainless valves. I'm not sure why they just don't weld them like they did for 80 years or so with no real problems. That way they could have stainless heads but steel stems. Ford used that type for exhausts and all steel valves for intakes and they worked just fine. Most flathead V8s had cast iron guides and they worked just fine whether two piece or solid depending on stem types. Times have certainly changed.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 11-18-2019 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:51 PM   #26
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

I took my eight new valves to the machine shop and left them to get .025 ground off the stems, then I rewatched Mike Bender's video on installing valves and he said the norm is to remove .100 when using adjustable lifters. Maybe I should call my machine shop guy back in the morning and tell him to go .100?
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:58 PM   #27
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

I would get one valve fit and then have all the others ground the same amount. Mike is talking about if he rebuilds the engine with new valve seats and valves from his vendor. No telling what you actually need but I sure wouldn't take that much off unless I knew for sure it was right. You can measure from a straight edge down to the top of the lifter and get really close.


Quote:
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I took my eight new valves to the machine shop and left them to get .025 ground off the stems, then I rewatched Mike Bender's video on installing valves and he said the norm is to remove .100 when using adjustable lifters. Maybe I should call my machine shop guy back in the morning and tell him to go .100?
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Old 11-21-2019, 04:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: #1 cylinder not doing it's share

rotor- thanks for the link to Glen Chaffin's valve adjustment procedure. I'm gonna try that out over the winter.
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