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Old 11-02-2019, 03:36 PM   #1
Ford-A-baquet
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Default Mysterious chips in the oil

greetings from lake constance
Rebuilt my engine with modern main shells, new rods, pistons, oil pump, B-cam, pump drivegear. Filled the 5 liter engine oil and pressed the starter button. When the oil reached the chamber to the right I stopped and mounted the valve cover. For pumping the oil to the last chamber to the left, I pressed the button again. This morning I was curious and turned the crank with the Ratched nut wrench. The engine can be easily turned but in one position I noticed a slight rattling. Unscrewed the valve cover and found the chippings. They are not magnetic. For my understanding only possible chippings from the middle shell from the cam or unidentified chippings from the oil pump.
The engine turned maximum with the starter and in my opinion it`s not something picked up from the oil pan. So many chippings in this short time from the pan not possible. What is your opinion.
Regards Rik
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Old 11-02-2019, 05:59 PM   #2
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

I'm by no means an expert, but that don't look good.
Are the metal flakes just in that front basin or are they in the bottom of the entire lifter area?
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Old 11-02-2019, 05:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

I hope you were meaning 5 qts? You could have just dumped a couple of qts down the hole for the distributor. Those chips look to be brass, only brass in that area would be bushings in the distributor shaft or oil pump shaft. I would go with oil pump shaft bushing having been reamed and not cleaned out. But don't think with just turning the engine over with the starter would have carried the chips over the dam. The screen would have prevented those chips from being picked up from the pan, too big for the screen mesh. Unless you had bearings installed in the cam shaft holes, there are no bearings.
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Old 11-02-2019, 09:58 PM   #4
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

Any chance debris could have fallen into the block when everything was disassembled?
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Old 11-03-2019, 02:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

debris excluded, brass is yellow - the chips are silver, also they are soft - more like the composite material from bearing shells. Yes, the three cam holes, there are shells pressed in. I worry about the middle shell and the cam which has the gearing for distributor and oil pump. The hole plug does not press on the oil pump pipe !!!!!!
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:20 AM   #6
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

Does it have an aluminum timing gear?
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Old 11-03-2019, 10:11 AM   #7
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

Can you establish what material the chips are? Aluminum? Babbit?
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Old 11-03-2019, 10:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

It is kind of obvious the "debris" came from the oil pump since the oil pump discharges right there. I think I would start with the oil pump. Doesn't appear any "debris" flowed over the dam and got into the rest of the valve chamber. I hope none of the "debris" got to your front main.
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Old 11-03-2019, 11:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

Not sure this will help, I have had a oil pump here the casting was some sort of soft pot metal, like a zinc. Lets hope it has not propagated thru the rest of the motor, been there, can be expensive.
Best, John
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Old 11-03-2019, 01:04 PM   #10
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

As it appears to be deposited there from the oil pump, you are going to have to drain the oil (look for more chips) and clean out the pan and dip trays. Remove the pump and disassemble. As those particles should not have passed thru the pump screen my guess is the oil pump gears may be eating away at the housing.
What has me puzzled is that you said the chips were not magnetic, which should eliminate the oil pump and pump housing.
Is it possible that those chips are old babbit grindings from engine rebuild? Its the only non-magnetic silver colored chips I can think of. They could have been lodged in the oil passage where the pump sits in the block or in the pipe that extends to that front oil chamber. Perhaps pumping just flushed out that oil passage.
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Old 11-03-2019, 01:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by redmodelt View Post
I hope you were meaning 5 qts? You could have just dumped a couple of qts down the hole for the distributor. Those chips look to be brass, only brass in that area would be bushings in the distributor shaft or oil pump shaft. I would go with oil pump shaft bushing having been reamed and not cleaned out. But don't think with just turning the engine over with the starter would have carried the chips over the dam. The screen would have prevented those chips from being picked up from the pan, too big for the screen mesh. Unless you had bearings installed in the cam shaft holes, there are no bearings.
Qts./liters are close to the same. 5 liters equals 5.28 qts. So he actually has a little extra oil in there.
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Old 11-03-2019, 02:45 PM   #12
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

Ok on the liter thing .

He said insert bearings in first post "Rebuilt my engine with modern main shells", then added the also part about cam bearings. If everything was cleaned after machining for inserts then there shouldn't be babbitt chips in the main oil supply tubes. The oil flow to the mains is gravity from the valve chamber so the chips would flow down to the mains not up from. The oil as far as I know flows in to the center section then to the back and then over the dam to the front and ether out the over flow tube or thru the hole in the front of the chamber of the A block. If that is correct oil path, then just cranking the engine over with the starter should not have moved the chips to the front section from the oil pump.

The B block had direct feed from the pump to the mains.
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Old 11-03-2019, 03:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by redmodelt View Post
Ok on the liter thing .

He said insert bearings in first post "Rebuilt my engine with modern main shells", then added the also part about cam bearings. If everything was cleaned after machining for inserts then there shouldn't be babbitt chips in the main oil supply tubes. The oil flow to the mains is gravity from the valve chamber so the chips would flow down to the mains not up from. The oil as far as I know flows in to the center section then to the back and then over the dam to the front and ether out the over flow tube or thru the hole in the front of the chamber of the A block. If that is correct oil path, then just cranking the engine over with the starter should not have moved the chips to the front section from the oil pump.

The B block had direct feed from the pump to the mains.
The oil is pumped first to the front of the valve chamber right where the chips are. You can see where the oil enters in photo 2, lower left corner of the 'dam'. It then overflows the 'dam' to the rest of the valve chamber. The other hole shown in photo 2 to the right feeds oil to the front main.

Your flow pattern is incorrect.
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Old 11-03-2019, 03:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

no aluminium gear, as I stated, assembled the engine one week ago. Since there the crank turned only by hand and starter. My first training three and a half years car mechanic in the seventies. It`s not the first engine overhaul.
I have also suspected the new oil pump. I installed it as bought from a known supplier. Need to disassemble the whole engine, no guarantee that some chips entered the tube to the brand new front bearing. I will tell my experiences here.



I just read about drive gear that was too big. The bigger drive gear push the cam against the middle bearing shell, another nightmare ????
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Old 11-03-2019, 05:02 PM   #15
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

What is that sticking out of the oil gallery. Looks like a pice of tubing? When a Mike's A-Ford-Able filter kit is installed that is where the tube for the filter goes. Just curious.
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Old 11-03-2019, 10:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

Probably junk from the rebuild, but at this point the safest thing to do is pull the pan, oil pump, and crankshaft, then thoroughly clean the engine.


Adding a valve cover oil filter would be wise also.
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Old 11-04-2019, 10:27 AM   #17
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

Quote:
I just read about drive gear that was too big. The bigger drive gear push the cam against the middle bearing shell, another nightmare ????
When assembling the engine, did you check timing gears clearance?
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Old 11-04-2019, 01:17 PM   #18
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

I may have missed it but has the chip material been identified yet?
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Old 11-04-2019, 06:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

Was the inside of the oil pan painted? If it was (it should not be painted) the paint might have started peeling with the oil breaking down the paint creating small flakes of paint. Just a thought.
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Old 11-05-2019, 01:32 PM   #20
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Default Re: Mysterious chips in the oil

here comes winter, four days in a row was too much a severe flu
is the result.The timing gear is new, the new crank gear I don`t
used.Backlash was too little (,002) so I fixed the old item again.
I will disassemble the engine. Don`t painted the pan inside.
Due to a total rebuilt of the whole car, next week I receive a
banjo from the states, the engine has to wait.
Attached my banjos which are died. The one with the four
cracks is from the first series,you should not use anyway.
The other one is the third and last version. Due to driving without
oil in the diff, the pinion bearing has blocked and rotated
industrious with the pinion for the bet. To bush the bearing is
difficult -- what measure should I tell to the worker at the
milling machine. So I bought one in the states.
The valve cover oil filter has two sides as everything in the
life.Okay, the chips don`t go the way to the main bearings, but
I have no chance to detect the mal function. And maybee something
more serious will happen after several weeks on the street.
I just want to say the vehicle I bought so, not driven a mile
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