Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-04-2019, 10:44 PM   #1
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I just bought this 4 door sedan from the original owner earlier this year. The steering was stopping halfway thru the travel when turning left. turns out the drag link adj sleeve is hitting the oil pan very hard. It has a huge gouge and I am surprised it it is not leaking. This needs to be addressed immediately. The motor is a 49-53 Merc flathead. I read in another thread that was about a 37 ford that the adjuster was on the passenger side. Mine is on the drivers side. If it was on the passenger side it would not be near the pan. Is it possible that this could have been installed backwards? Any help would be appreciated

Thanks...David
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2019, 06:15 AM   #2
Terry,OH
Senior Member
 
Terry,OH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,291
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

The drag link should go to the RH wheel and it's steering arm with the adjuster near the wheel.
Terry,OH is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-05-2019, 09:12 AM   #3
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Hi Terry,
I'm a little confused with you post.The drag link goes to both wheels, but the adjuster is much closer to the Drivers side of the car. Is this correct? If not, could I just flip it around and reconnect it? Then the adjuster sleeve would be on the passenger side and not be hitting the oil pan? Could it possible be that easy?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2019, 09:43 AM   #4
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Are you confusing drag link and tie rod? The drag link goes from the steering box arm to the RH spindle. The tie rod connects the LH & RH spindles.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2019, 06:47 PM   #5
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Yes, my bad. It is the drag link and it only goes to the passenger side wheel. but the adjuster is much closer to the Drivers side of the car, right near the steering arm. as I said previously, is this correct? If not, could I just flip it around and reconnect it? Then the adjuster sleeve would be on the passenger side and not be hitting the oil pan?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2019, 06:51 PM   #6
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
Yes, my bad. It is the drag link and it only goes to the passenger side wheel. but the adjuster is much closer to the Drivers side of the car, right near the steering arm. as I said previously, is this correct? If not, could I just flip it around and reconnect it? Then the adjuster sleeve would be on the passenger side and not be hitting the oil pan?
re-read post #2
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2019, 07:26 PM   #7
Kurt in NJ
Senior Member
 
Kurt in NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: on the Littlefield
Posts: 4,862
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

show picture of pan---later merc pans have fit problems in early cars
Kurt in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 12:02 AM   #8
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

40cpe. When post 2 was posted I was confused and had the 2 bars mixed up for some reason. So back to my question and this may seem stupid. How do I get the adjuster configured correctly so it is next to the wheel. Not much of a suspension guy, can i just flip it around and re-attach the ends?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 12:03 AM   #9
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ View Post
show picture of pan---later merc pans have fit problems in early cars
I will try and take a pic tomorrow. This is not a show car so it may scare you!!!
I believe it is a truck oil pan because it has a big clean-out cover and a monster hex drain plug. I think it is 2" wide
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 08:22 AM   #10
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
40cpe. When post 2 was posted I was confused and had the 2 bars mixed up for some reason. So back to my question and this may seem stupid. How do I get the adjuster configured correctly so it is next to the wheel. Not much of a suspension guy, can i just flip it around and re-attach the ends?
Should not be that difficult to remove (with the correct tool) and give it a try.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 11:34 AM   #11
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Here are some pics of the pan and suspension I am asking about
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20191005_194016.jpg (67.1 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg 20191005_194137.jpg (59.6 KB, 149 views)
File Type: jpg 20191005_194237.jpg (71.9 KB, 142 views)
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 11:37 AM   #12
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Should not be that difficult to remove (with the correct tool) and give it a try.
No, I realize what you are saying, I am asking you is it as easy as just disconnecting at the steering arm end and the wheel end and just flipping it around so the adjuster would now be next to the passenger side wheel, or do I have to do more than this?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 12:15 PM   #13
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Please see the diagram from the Green Book below. As JSeery mentions, the drag link can be flipped end to end. The best way is with a proper removal tool and not a "pickle fork". Search for a "front end service kit".
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 37 Front Axle from Green Book.jpg (68.0 KB, 55 views)
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 12:31 PM   #14
marko39
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: harpursville ny
Posts: 286
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
Here are some pics of the pan and suspension I am asking about
From you pics. It looks like your adjuster is way out. Have you checked the adjustment ? Is your steering wheel centered with wheels pointed straight?
marko39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 01:05 PM   #15
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

That adjuster is WAY threaded out as Marko39 mentions and doesn't seem like much thread engagement is there. After you check the steering wheel position as he mentions, the next thing to check is whether you have the wrong and too short drag link.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 01:13 PM   #16
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

You could start by just rotating the adjuster sleeve for clearance.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 01:26 PM   #17
outlaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eagle River,Alaska
Posts: 287
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like the draglink has been hitting the wishbone & has damaged it? I can't see any damage to the oil pan in the pictures?
outlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 01:56 PM   #18
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I have the same oil pan in my '38. With the steering box centered and the drag link connected, there was very little left-turn movement allowed. As The pitman arm moved toward the pan, the drag link moves to the rear of the car and contacts the oil pan. I bent my pitman arm down to clear the pan as I didn't discover this until the engine was installed and running. Once I learn a legitimate way to correct it, I intend to remove my engine for that and some other items that bug me.
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 04:50 PM   #19
Kurt in NJ
Senior Member
 
Kurt in NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: on the Littlefield
Posts: 4,862
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Does the crank hole line up with the crankshaft ratchet?--- perhaps the engine is too low in the chassis--- some later engine conversion need motor mounts with spacers
Kurt in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 04:58 PM   #20
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpm View Post
Please see the diagram from the Green Book below. As JSeery mentions, the drag link can be flipped end to end. The best way is with a proper removal tool and not a "pickle fork". Search for a "front end service kit".
This diagram is for a 37, and it shows the adjuster sleeve on the steering arm side, not the wheel. This is exactly what I have on my car and as 40cpe said:"As The pitman arm moved toward the pan, the drag link moves to the rear of the car and contacts the oil pan"
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 05:01 PM   #21
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
You could start by just rotating the adjuster sleeve for clearance.
I did think about this, is it as easy as just loosening up the 2 bolts and rotate 1/2 turn, then re-tighten?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 05:22 PM   #22
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko39 View Post
From you pics. It looks like your adjuster is way out. Have you checked the adjustment ? Is your steering wheel centered with wheels pointed straight?
My steering wheel has no way to tell if it is centered or not. The center is the headlight switch and does not rotate with the wheel.

On the outboard side I have 1 1/2" engagement from the edge of the sleeve, it goes about 1/2" past the center of the bolt. The inboard side(closest to the steering arm)I have 1 1/4" engagement past the edge of the sleeve and goes about 1/4" past the center of the bolt
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-06-2019, 05:25 PM   #23
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like the draglink has been hitting the wishbone & has damaged it? I can't see any damage to the oil pan in the pictures?
I just checked it and yes, it stops right when it hits the wishbone. There is no damage to the wishbone at all, just a dent in the grease only. The pan is heavily damaged and I am surprised it did not go all the way thru!
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 05:35 PM   #24
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ View Post
Does the crank hole line up with the crankshaft ratchet?--- perhaps the engine is too low in the chassis--- some later engine conversion need motor mounts with spacers
I don't know where the crankshaft ratchet is. The end of my crankshaft is the pulley with the bolt in the middle. When I look thru the crank hole in the grill I see a Chevy bow tie looking cutout and that seem to line up pretty close if that is what you are referring to as the crankshaft ratchet?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 05:50 PM   #25
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
I did think about this, is it as easy as just loosening up the 2 bolts and rotate 1/2 turn, then re-tighten?
Yes, but you also need to check for other clearance issues, such as the wishbone (which you already posted about). Heating and bending the steering arm might be the easiest way to get better clearance (also as already posted).
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 06:06 PM   #26
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Yes, but you also need to check for other clearance issues, such as the wishbone (which you already posted about). Heating and bending the steering arm might be the easiest way to get better clearance (also as already posted).
When turning right it ends up stopping at the point where it hits the wishbone. I am assuming this is not supposed to happen correct? What is supposed to stop the travel? That steering arm off the box is very very thick, is that what you are suggesting to heat and bend? As I stated in the beginning, steering to the right is more than adequate, it is the left that is the issue.
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 06:22 PM   #27
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

There were originally nuts on the king pin retainer pins that stopped the spindles. Sometimes these get changed. Yes, the steering arm is thick and it takes a lot of heat to be able to bend it. I would remove it to do the bending and it takes a rose-bud tip on an oxy tank torch to get the heat. Again, I would figure out how much clearance you need and make a pattern then get someone with the equipment to help you bend it.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 06:54 PM   #28
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

This would be a last resort for sure! My first attempt to remedy this problem will be to rotate the sleeve 1/2 turn and see if that fixes it.
This would be a last resort for sure! My first attempt to remedy this problem will be to rotate the sleeve 1/2 turn and see if that fixes it.


1 hour later: I turned it but it is still hitting pretty good. If it was not so deeply gouged I would try banging in the oil pan a little, but I am afraid it will break thru if I hit dent it in at all. I guess next would be to try and reverse the whole link as mentioned earlier. I will search for info "front end service kit" as suggested.

Last edited by davids2toys; 10-06-2019 at 08:32 PM.
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2019, 11:43 PM   #29
Tom-MI
Junior Member
 
Tom-MI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 19
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

David-

Looking at your pictures I see a possible cause of your problems. You have a '49-'53 truck oil pan NOT a '49-'53 Mercury pan. A '49-'53 Merc pan has a shallow set-back sump to give clearance to the drag link. Note picture below. These pans are getting hard to find. You will also need a Merc oil pump and oil pickup.

Hope this helps.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg '49-53 Merc oil pan.jpg (57.9 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg 49-53 merc oil pan-2.jpg (62.7 KB, 35 views)
Tom-MI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 01:16 AM   #30
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Tom,
What is the difference between a Merc truck motor and a Merc car motor? Or are you saying I do not even have a Mercury motor? Changing a pan in this will be murder, the front bolts look impossible to get at! Hopefully it does not come to this!
Thanks
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 01:19 AM   #31
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I did a bunch of searching here on how to remove and replace this drag link so I can learn how to flip it around...could not find much. can anyone give me a quick tutorial or post a link?
Thanks
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 05:02 AM   #32
Tony, NY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Capital of Corruption , NY
Posts: 668
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Look at the various drawings on VanPelts site to determine what engine you might have. http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...gs_engines.htm
Tony, NY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 05:03 AM   #33
Tom-MI
Junior Member
 
Tom-MI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 19
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

David-

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as an "American Mercury truck." However, Canada did have a Mercury truck line. As for engine size, I am not totally positive but I believe the standard engine available for all ''49-'53 trucks was a 239 CC, same as the car. The '49-53 Merc engines were 255 CC and were also available as a special order in heavy duty Ford trucks.

To remove an oil pan without removing the engine from the car is not exactly a "walk in the park." I Imagine all Fordbarners have done it at least once so, there should be lots of advice/help available. Still, it is a nasty job.

Tom
Tom-MI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 06:16 AM   #34
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
I did a bunch of searching here on how to remove and replace this drag link so I can learn how to flip it around...could not find much. can anyone give me a quick tutorial or post a link?
Thanks
David,


This Youtube vid shows how to remove the tie rod ends.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jotYlVj09xM


Did you try to rotate the adjuster sleeve so that the bolts are out of the way? This would tell you if flipping the drag link end for end will solve your problem.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 06:18 AM   #35
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Good on the thread engagement!



Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
My steering wheel has no way to tell if it is centered or not. The center is the headlight switch and does not rotate with the wheel.

On the outboard side I have 1 1/2" engagement from the edge of the sleeve, it goes about 1/2" past the center of the bolt. The inboard side(closest to the steering arm)I have 1 1/4" engagement past the edge of the sleeve and goes about 1/4" past the center of the bolt
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 06:24 AM   #36
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

David,


I'd be buying this if rotating or flipping the drag link end for end won't work. You are concerned about the deep gouge in your pan and will have to repair that anyway.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/49-50-51-52...UAAOSwiXNdlrdy


Glenn



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom-MI View Post
David-

Looking at your pictures I see a possible cause of your problems. You have a '49-'53 truck oil pan NOT a '49-'53 Mercury pan. A '49-'53 Merc pan has a shallow set-back sump to give clearance to the drag link. Note picture below. These pans are getting hard to find. You will also need a Merc oil pump and oil pickup.

Hope this helps.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 09:45 AM   #37
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony, NY View Post
Look at the various drawings on VanPelts site to determine what engine you might have. http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...gs_engines.htm
This is a nice find Tony, thank you. It sure looks like I have a 24 bolt 49-53. Looks like they have a bottom plug and a rear plug for the oil pan diagram, mine is definitely the bottom plug. None of this gets into whether it is a Ford or Mercury engine, it just says Flathead
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 10:14 AM   #38
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

There are bolt-on differences between the Ford and Mercury, heads, oil pan, water pumps, that sort of thing, but the only really internal difference is the crankshaft and the matching pistons. The blocks are the same. About the only way to know is to measure the stroke.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 10:24 AM   #39
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpm View Post
David,


This Youtube vid shows how to remove the tie rod ends.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jotYlVj09xM


Did you try to rotate the adjuster sleeve so that the bolts are out of the way? This would tell you if flipping the drag link end for end will solve your problem.
Well that video helps me get an idea of what needs to get done. Is it the same for the pit-man end? I did rotate it, it still interferes, but nothing like before, it is more like a hard rub vs. smashing into it with the bolt head. I could live with the hard rub for sure, eventually would just put a slight wear groove in the oil pan but nothing crazy like the gouge I have now
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 10:34 AM   #40
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpm View Post
David,


I'd be buying this if rotating or flipping the drag link end for end won't work. You are concerned about the deep gouge in your pan and will have to repair that anyway.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/49-50-51-52...UAAOSwiXNdlrdy


Glenn
This is just a unrestored survivor with a tom of patina, so if this gouge does not leak, I won't fix it, but I will stop it from getting worse. I totally like the idea of getting rid of the bottom drain/ clean-out flange because the whole thing leaks like crazy! The 8 bolts holding it on are not fixed so when I changed the gasket, there was no way to stop the bolts from turning. There is also an inner gasket that I did not change. I replaced the bolts with studs with an Allen slot so I could hold it. Put nyloc nuts on the other end inside the pan. All of this leaks a lot so I need to address it in the future. As someone said earlier, I think this pan would need a different pump and pickup?
I had back surgery last year and a knee replacement 10 weeks ago so it is really a challenge to do some things right now. That oil pan looks like a major PITA to R&R


Thanks
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 10:38 AM   #41
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom-MI View Post
David-

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as an "American Mercury truck." However, Canada did have a Mercury truck line. As for engine size, I am not totally positive but I believe the standard engine available for all ''49-'53 trucks was a 239 CC, same as the car. The '49-53 Merc engines were 255 CC and were also available as a special order in heavy duty Ford trucks.

To remove an oil pan without removing the engine from the car is not exactly a "walk in the park." I Imagine all Fordbarners have done it at least once so, there should be lots of advice/help available. Still, it is a nasty job.

Tom
I know at some point I will be doing this and I definitely do not want to remove the engine.
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 10:46 AM   #42
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpm View Post
Please see the diagram from the Green Book below. As JSeery mentions, the drag link can be flipped end to end. The best way is with a proper removal tool and not a "pickle fork". Search for a "front end service kit".
All I have is a pickle ford, why can't you use it? Are you worried about the rubber boot?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-07-2019, 11:38 AM   #43
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Yes, you have a real good chance of destroying the boot. The tie rod ends are not going to come out easily.

Last edited by glennpm; 10-07-2019 at 12:02 PM.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 11:42 AM   #44
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpm View Post
Yes, you have a real good chance of destroying the boot.
I will take a look at how bad the boot already is. Thanks
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 05:53 PM   #45
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Hi David,


The fork is going to push and cut on the bottom side of the boot when you try to get the rod end out. If you have one slide it in place and you can see this. Most of the time, you will also have to hammer the side of the spindle to get it out. Just trying to give you advice, been there done that ....
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 06:22 PM   #46
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpm View Post
Hi David,


The fork is going to push and cut on the bottom side of the boot when you try to get the rod end out. If you have one slide it in place and you can see this. Most of the time, you will also have to hammer the side of the spindle to get it out. Just trying to give you advice, been there done that ....
Totally appreciate that, thank you.
By rotating the sleeve it is much better. I am actually thinking of shimming the motor mount with a thick washer to make it clear the pan totally. Does anybody know if shimming up the motor mount an 1/8 of an inch would have any negative impact on any part of the drive train? I have no idea how that torque tube thing works, I know with a regular driveshaft I would not be to concerned
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 06:33 PM   #47
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Hi David,


Shimming may work. I haven't seen a good picture of the gouge and how far back on the pan it is. If you think 1/8" at the groove would work, you need to add quite a bit more under the front motor mount. The amount of increase is controlled by a line from the front to the rear mounts. You may have to loosen or shim the rear mounts too.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2019, 06:51 PM   #48
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpm View Post
Hi David,


Shimming may work. I haven't seen a good picture of the gouge and how far back on the pan it is. If you think 1/8" at the groove would work, you need to add quite a bit more under the front motor mount. The amount of increase is controlled by a line from the front to the rear mounts. You may have to loosen or shim the rear mounts too.
WOW, never thought of any of that, but I see your point. It is all the way at the back of the pan sump about an inch up
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 04:02 AM   #49
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,900
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Ok, I'm a bit late to the party, but here is what I'd do.

Support the front axle on stands and remove both front wheels for better access. the weight of the vehicle needs to be on the axle.

Remove the drag link completely, using a purpose made tool rather than a pickle fork, so no damage to the boots.

If the incorrect stop nuts are fitted, I would fit the correct extended stop nuts.

Move the hubs from lock to lock checking for foul conditions between the tie rod and the radius rods. Ensure the tie rod clamps are oriented so the bolts are not causing a foul condition.

If there is a foul condition then bending of steering arms may be necessary, but this is normally found on hot rods rather than stockers.

Center the hubs so they are in the straight ahead position.

Center the steering box by counting turns lock to lock and setting at the half way mark.

Adjust the length of the drag link so it just falls in place. Fit it without tightening fully. Put the adjusters near the axle end, oriented so the bolts are away from the radius rod (wishbone).

Move the steering from lock to lock to see where the foul conditions are.

If the drag link is still hitting the pan, i would consider putting a slight bend in the drag link, nothing too radical, just a kink to gain clearance. the length of the link may need to be adjusted after bending so the drag link falls into place with steering box and hubs centered.

I would consider if anything could be gained from raising the motor somewhat, without creating problems elsewhere.

If there is a foul condition near either full lock that can not be corrected within the scope of the amount of work you want to do, I would consider limiting the lock to a lesser angle by either putting washers under the stop nut or making an oversize stop nut. Again, this is hot rod territory, and should not be needed on a stocker.

Thinking about it, your car has been hot rodded. It has an incorrect motor, and it is the incorrect oil pan that is causing the problem, so thinking outside the box may be called for.

When looking at the foul conditions, take into account what happens when the axle rides a bump, you need added clearance above the suspension parts.

If you cannot resolve your issue by following the above, you may need to pull the motor, repair the pan and modify it to gain clearance, or fit a different pan, and the associated oil pump and pickup.

Importantly, ensure you tighten everything up when finished.

Hope this helps.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 07:38 AM   #50
Tom-MI
Junior Member
 
Tom-MI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 19
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I am not really convinced that shimming the engine mounting would solve your problem. I suspect it would more likely lead to some big time clutch chatter especially if a lot of shims were added. However, no harm in trying and shims can be easily removed.

Tom
Tom-MI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 08:21 AM   #51
Zeke3
Senior Member
 
Zeke3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Columbus, IN
Posts: 103
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

When you get around to flipping the drag link so the adjusting sleeve is outboard at the wheel end, go to O'Reilly's, Advance Auto or Auto Zone and "borrow" the correct tool for removing the tie rod ends you wish to reuse. Save that pickle fork for jobs you don't plan to reuse.
Zeke3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 08:39 AM   #52
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Mart,
Thank you so much for the detailed guidance. I can already see I would have made some mistakes here. this information helps more than you know!!!

Zeke,

I already called auto zone about their tool loner program. I will get there this week and I took photos of both ends so I get the right tool
Tom,
After I thought about it a bit more yesterday, I decided to not shim anything at all.
Thanks all...Dave
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 10:39 AM   #53
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

So I got the tool and started doing it last night. I go the one near the wheel no problem, the one near the steering arm is going to be murder, no room to get on the tool with the wrench or socket. I reattached the other end loosely and will try to get back to the steering arm side and tackle that one first. Just got it broken free, I needed to turn the wheel all the way to the right to be able to use the tool.

A few questions:
1. What is the Torque spec range on the tie rod castellated nut? I read 40-50 ft lbs somewhere online. On removal,one of the castellated nuts was much tighter than the other one.


2. There is no real boot, it is a metal curved washer that retains the grease. On top of that is a thick rubber washer. Is this correct? The rubber washer on the the tie rod near the where is torn/split. Since this is a total limited use driver, I will probable just put it back on the way it was and check the grease more frequently, or do I need a new tie rod?


3. If everything stays in place and I just rotate the adjuster, will this change anything beside the orientation of the adjuster bolts?


4. So I will not be turning anything, I just plan to flip it and rotate the adjuster enough to keep the bolts from interfering if needed. I am thinking if I do not turn anything, I should be good to go because it should just line up and be in the same position? With the wheels straight, and hopefully the steering arm is also straight. If it is not, do I just loosen up the adjuster sleeve and adjust the tie rods with the ends not connected to the spindles?
I am also assuming the the back and forth swivel action should be at the middle of its travel when wheels and steering arm are straight and in the middle of its travel ? Can someone explain quick how to do a tie rod adjustment? That will help me understand the adjuster sleeve and how it works

5. While removing the wheels I noticed they have way to much drag, one is a lot worse than the other. So I guess I am going too learn how to adjust these antique brakes also! That would explain why it was pulling to one side when I hit the brakes.
Thank you...Dave

Last edited by davids2toys; 10-23-2019 at 01:48 PM. Reason: added text
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 07:36 PM   #54
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Tie rods and steering rods are normally setup with right hand threads on one end and left hand threads on the other end of a threaded tube. Rotating the tube one direction will lengthen the overall length and rotating it the other direction will shorten it. If you are just removing the steering link and swaping it end for end it should not require any adjusting as the overall length is not changing. The tie rod controls the angle of the wheel/tires to each other (toe in and/or toe out) and is adjusted by loosing the clamps on each end, rotating the tie rod to get the toe in wanted and retightening the clamps. The steering link mainly allows you to change the relationship of the steering wheel to the wheel/tire position, so adjusting it can be used to center the steering wheel when the tires are straight ahead.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 09:06 PM   #55
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Good info here, but not sure if we are talking about the same part. Are you talking about the drag link? This goes from the steering box to the passenger wheel. What you are talking about almost sounds like the bar next to it that goes from spindle to spindle.
So I already rotated about 1/2 turn the adjusting sleeve on the drag link to get the bolt heads away from hitting the oil pan. Do you think 1.2 turn will make a big difference?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 09:35 PM   #56
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Do you have a drop axle also? The weight of the later engine might be lowering things a bit also.


Might think about a drop steering arm. Mods need mods. Drag connects to one spindle (across the car), "tie" rod runs to the other spindle (spindle to spindle). I think most are on board there.


You might have drop spindles for the tie rod. Which why they clear but your steering arm (drag) may not be.


Just a thought.



.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 09:52 PM   #57
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

The bar that goes from spindle to spindle is on the same plane as the drag link. The drag link is forward and hits the oil pan
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 01:40 AM   #58
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

So no drop axle or spindles?
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 09:45 AM   #59
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Not as far as I know. Would there be a way to tell? Sorry for my ignorance!
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 09:46 AM   #60
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

See Mart's message above for the proper way to set the length of the drag link.



"Center the hubs so they are in the straight ahead position.

Center the steering box by counting turns lock to lock and setting at the half way mark.

Adjust the length of the drag link so it just falls in place. Fit it without tightening fully. Put the adjusters near the axle end, oriented so the bolts are away from the radius rod (wishbone).

Move the steering from lock to lock to see where the foul conditions are."
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 09:58 AM   #61
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Got all that.
When you say count the turns lock to lock, I am doing that on the steering wheel itself correct, not the steering arm off the box? In detail, how exactly do you adjust the length of the drag link. I am assuming it is with the adjustment sleeve somehow.
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:04 AM   #62
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

As far as going lock to lock.Is this inside to box or do I need to hook the drag link back up to do this. I broke it free yesterday
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-24-2019, 10:12 AM   #63
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I just did it on the steering wheel with drag link disconnected. It is 4 7/8 turns lock to lock.So that answers that question.
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:42 AM   #64
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
In detail, how exactly do you adjust the length of the drag link. I am assuming it is with the adjustment sleeve somehow.
Thought I covered that! One end of the sleeve has RH threads the other end has LH threads. Rotating the sleeve shortens or lengthens the steering link length. Mart also posted the procedure. Center the wheels/tires, center the steering wheel, adjust the steering link (drag link) to fit. It is the same for the tie rod or the drag link, rotating the sleeve/tube moves the ends futher apart or closer together depending on which way you rotate it.

Last edited by JSeery; 10-24-2019 at 10:50 AM.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 11:25 AM   #65
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

So as said here by Mart and JSeery, rotate the steering wheel from either end to the middle, 2 7/16 turns WITHOUT the drag link connected. Adjust the length so the rod ends JUST drop into the holes at the pitman arm and the wheel spindle.



Suggest you re-read all the messages in this thread.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 12:52 PM   #66
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

You did, I got confused. So when I rotated the adjust sleeve a 1/2 turn to get the bolt side away from the oil pan I actually lengthened or shortened the drag link. I thought that maybe you loosen the adjuster on one side, then disconnect the tie rod on the wheel side and turned it into the adjust, then reconnect and tighten. Yes, that would be ridiculous. I guess some of the confusion was from me asking the the original question about rotating the adjuster and there would be no change? From what you are saying, in actuality, there was a definite change in length of the drag link! Maybe because I was only doing a 1/2 turn, that was not significant enough change to mention earlier?
Thank you
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 12:53 PM   #67
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpm View Post
So as said here by Mart and JSeery, rotate the steering wheel from either end to the middle, 2 7/16 turns WITHOUT the drag link connected. Adjust the length so the rod ends JUST drop into the holes at the pitman arm and the wheel spindle.



Suggest you re-read all the messages in this thread.
I did re-read it all. I had even printed out Mart's instructions a week ago. I hope to finish it up tonight.
Another great thread: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...nk#post1613352
I wish I had read this before taking it apart. Nice way to find steering position in relation to having the wheels straight going do the road.

Last edited by davids2toys; 10-24-2019 at 01:05 PM. Reason: added text
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 01:26 PM   #68
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
From what you are saying, in actuality, there was a definite change in length of the drag link! Maybe because I was only doing a 1/2 turn, that was not significant enough change to mention earlier?
Thank you

I don't think I'd worry too much about turning a drag link only 1/2 turn. Most drag links have 18 TPI (threads per inch). Each full thread (one full turn) equates to a length of roughly 0.055". Correspondingly, 1/2 turn would equate to a change in length of about 0.028", roughly equivalent to the space of the gap on a flathead spark plug.


If you're still having clearance problems, I have one more suggestion. The picture below shows a '36 Pitman arm as well as a 1937-'40 Pitman arm. As you can see, the '37-'40 arm is longer, and would position your drag link farther forward. It is a direct replacement on the '36 steering box, but the added length should cause slightly more effort to turn the steering wheel while sitting still...the result of physics and the length of levers. Anyway, the '37-'40 Pitman arm will have a "78-3590" number on it. DD


__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!





Last edited by V8COOPMAN; 10-24-2019 at 02:01 PM.
V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 02:33 PM   #69
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,900
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

DD, using you figures, you actually do get .055" for half a turn of the sleeve. It's because you get 28 form the right hand thread and 28 from the left also. You get a full pitch from half a turn of the sleeve.

On the drag link the actual length is not as critical as the tie rod. That does need to be bang on as it sets the toe in.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 03:31 PM   #70
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Good, you're getting there!


"I did re-read it all. I had even printed out Mart's instructions a week ago. I hope to finish it up tonight.
Another great thread: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...nk#post1613352
I wish I had read this before taking it apart. Nice way to find steering position in relation to having the wheels straight going do the road."


Glenn
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 05:32 PM   #71
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart View Post
DD, using you figures, you actually do get .055" for half a turn of the sleeve. It's because you get 28 form the right hand thread and 28 from the left also. You get a full pitch from half a turn of the sleeve.
Mart.

Dang Mart, you caught me asleep again.....you are absolutely right! DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 05:35 PM   #72
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Yes, but it is still very little movement, that is why it was posted originally that turning the adjustment sleeve 1/2 turn would not make any real difference in the overall length.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:23 PM   #73
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Isn't the issue at hand about clearance? Guess i'm not sure the question being asked.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:46 PM   #74
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

He is trying reversing the steering drag link for clearance and at the same time adjust the length to center the steering wheel. There is the added issue of turning the adjusting sleeve beyond the ideal position to get maximum clearance for the clamp bolts on the sleeve.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:52 PM   #75
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Wouldn't a drop steering arm kinda simplify it? Adjusting the tie rod granted? Don't you just remove the steering arm to center it?


Just ignore me JS, I'm out.

Last edited by Tinker; 10-24-2019 at 11:01 PM.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 01:25 AM   #76
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

So, this was a mile off. When I did lock to lock center on the steering wheel, the wheels were far from straight. So, where the pit-man arm was sitting in the midpoint steering wheel travel is what I adjusted the drag link to. It needs to be shortened about a 1/2. Unfortunately, there was very little threads left on the tie rod that screws into the adjuster, so I did the adjusting by just screwing in the other side. So the wheels are straight now. The drag link is still hitting the pan hard, but now it is more like a super hard rub vs what I had with bolt and sleeve smashing into the pan. So when I am rubbing to the point of not being able force it any more, I still have 1 1/2 turns of potential travel that I can’t make. It doesn't look like I am going to have any interference with the adjusting sleeve end of the drag link. It is not coming close to anything, but can't tell what will happen once I solve the oil pan problem and I am able to get the additional travel. I think I have the 1936 pit-man arm as described earlier. The part # stamped on it is 48-3590-16. Is this correct # for a 1936 car?
So the 37 pit-arm will probably be a good way to go. Is 37 car and truck the same number?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 01:31 AM   #77
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I would not rely on factory 36-37 stuff with a 8ba in the vehicle. Could measure and adapt. or not.


Great long explanations of the issues.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 01:36 AM   #78
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Found this on ebay but part number is wrong?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1937-41...-/352466964634
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 01:59 AM   #79
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinker View Post
I would not rely on factory 36-37 stuff with a 8ba in the vehicle. Could measure and adapt. or not.


Great long explanations of the issues.
If the 37 is a direct replacement onto the 36 box, and is an inch longer which would bring it an inch forward(away from the oil pan). That is adapting to the 8ba engine no? I think this was V8COOPMAN point in posting it.
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 02:12 AM   #80
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

True. lot of ways to skin a cat. That cat might work. I am never questioning V8coops knowledge.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 10:49 AM   #81
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
Found this on ebay but part number is wrong?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1937-41...-/352466964634

That "11A-3590" is a 1941-ONLY arm and I have no first-hand experience with it lengthwise, nor if the taper in the drag link hole is UP or DOWN. I believe the LENGTH is the important detail here. If it were me, I'd take a chance on the '41 arm working-out, as I doubt that Ford would shorten it again. The fact that the 11A does not appear to have the bends in it like the 78A does may work to your benefit. But, what do I know?


To answer your earlier question, '37 CAR and PICK-UP arms will be the same. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 11:03 AM   #82
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
If the 37 is a direct replacement onto the 36 box, and is an inch longer which would bring it an inch forward(away from the oil pan). That is adapting to the 8ba engine no? I think this was V8COOPMAN point in posting it.

David....You say you have an 8BA-type ('49-'53) engine in your car. I'm curious....what type of FAN do you have in that thing? Because of the rearward slant on a '36 radiator, it's usually pretty tough adapting a decent fan assembly for the '49-'53 engines.


Do you work for Sikorsky? DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-25-2019, 11:16 AM   #83
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Hi V8coopman,
I do not have money to waste so I don't want to take a the chance with the 11A-3590 arm. I was searching for the part you specified and it seems like nobody has that part. I did find one on Ford barn but it was sold already. Any suggestions?


It has an electric pusher fan mount in the front of radiator.


Yes, I do work for Sikorsky.
David

Last edited by davids2toys; 10-25-2019 at 11:18 AM. Reason: added text
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 11:44 AM   #84
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
. I was searching for the part you specified and it seems like nobody has that part.



David
I had an ad here on the barn for a 78A pitman arm. After I bought one I got a message from user name "v8fordman" that he had one. You might message him, or place an ad in the wanted section.
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 12:26 PM   #85
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
I don't think I'd worry too much about turning a drag link only 1/2 turn. Most drag links have 18 TPI (threads per inch). Each full thread (one full turn) equates to a length of roughly 0.055". Correspondingly, 1/2 turn would equate to a change in length of about 0.028", roughly equivalent to the space of the gap on a flathead spark plug.


If you're still having clearance problems, I have one more suggestion. The picture below shows a '36 Pitman arm as well as a 1937-'40 Pitman arm. As you can see, the '37-'40 arm is longer, and would position your drag link farther forward. It is a direct replacement on the '36 steering box, but the added length should cause slightly more effort to turn the steering wheel while sitting still...the result of physics and the length of levers. Anyway, the '37-'40 Pitman arm will have a "78-3590" number on it. DD


I found a box and arm on ebay. I would buy the whole thing if I thought the 37 box would work in my 36. It would be nice to have a spare I guess. Do you know if it would fit and work correctly in my car?
Thanks
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 01:37 PM   #86
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

You will need to change the mounting plate on the frame to one from a '37 up.
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 02:07 PM   #87
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

The 37 box and arm I found on ebay. The guy was willing to just sell me the arm for 40.00 shipped, so I just bought it. Thank you
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 07:15 PM   #88
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
I found a box and arm on ebay. I would buy the whole thing if I thought the 37 box would work in my 36. It would be nice to have a spare I guess. Do you know if it would fit and work correctly in my car?
Thanks

David....Yes, a popular modification for a '35 or '36 is to replace the steering box with the later '37-'39 box. Although steering boxes '37 thru '48 are the same internally, shaft and column lengths vary, plus the '40-'48s don't have any provision for the headlight switch at the bottom...'37 thru '39 still have the headlight switch provision. It's easy as pie to replace the entire box AND column assembly as a unit. The only other mod necessary for a clean, correct-geometry installation is the replacement of the '36 steering box mount (which is riveted into the frame rail) with a later '37 thru '40 steering box mount like the one in the picture below. They also show-up in the "for sale" section here on the 'Barn as well as on eBay from time to time. Surely does improve the steering effort.


Would you have any interest in seeing the mechanical fan that a fellow FordBarner and I devised to get rid of that ugly electric fan on his '36 3-window coupe with an 8BA?


The '37-'40 steering box frame bracket below. DD


__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 08:27 PM   #89
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Thank you for the great info on the 37-39 box, that may be in my future, but not now. The reason I bought the 37 pit man arm was the extra length as you pointed out to me. From your post I am assuming it will bolt right on my 36 box?


Yes, I would love to see that fan setup. I hate the look and sound of the electric fan!
Thanks...Dave
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 08:50 PM   #90
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
Thank you for the great info on the 37-39 box, that may be in my future, but not now. The reason I bought the 37 pit man arm was the extra length as you pointed out to me. From your post I am assuming it will bolt right on my 36 box?


Yes, I would love to see that fan setup. I hate the look and sound of the electric fan!
Thanks...Dave

David...Yes, the "78A-" Pitman arm bolts right up!


Now, for the fan we came-up with, click on the link below and scroll down to POST #12. That's the whole story in a nutshell with a few pictures. If you have any interest, I have quite a few more pics and lots o' details. Picture is the finished unit that bolts to 8BA intake manifold. Click the link below! DD


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...mechanical+fan


__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 09:22 PM   #91
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Awesome that it bolts right up, I cant wait until it gets here. Hope fully it doesn't go to far forward into the other rod that goes from wheel to wheel


I read the whole thread, very nice indeed. Can this be purchased?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2019, 01:55 PM   #92
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
I read the whole thread, very nice indeed. Can this be purchased?

Sorry Dave, but we're not manufacturing this unit for sale. On the other hand, if anyone has an interest in reproducing a similar rig for themselves, I'll be happy to offer details, additional pictures and advice to get you thru the project. In theory, this entire project COULD be done with a couple of arc welds, hand tools and a drill press, EXCEPT for some minor machining on the upper, two-belt alternator pulley. The rear-most belt slot in the pulley must be machined slightly wider to accommodate the wider flathead belt. Heard was able to accomplish that on a small, not-very-sophisticated lathe that he has. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2019, 10:19 PM   #93
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

To bad, he could makr a good buck I bet
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2019, 03:02 PM   #94
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
To bad, he could makr a good buck I bet

You'd think, huh? Actually, for the number of folks I've seen over the years seeking a solution for a mechanical fan in a '35 or '36 with an 8BA, we were amazed at the complete lack of any interest shown. The damned thing is relatively easy to build. The hardest part was scratching our collective butts while figuring and fitting pieces for materials and spacing (R&D). And like I said earlier, the KEY to the whole thing was stumbling onto that Corvair fan hub. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2019, 11:04 PM   #95
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Well, I got the 37 pitman arm yesterday and tried it out tonight. It is about an inch longer but it also curves in in upward direction so it basically still hits the oil pan only at a higher point. It only can go on the box one way it seems, If I could flip it around I think it would actually work because then it would curve down and away from the oil pan instead of up and closer to the oil pan. Am I missing something or can this only go on the 1 way? Does anybody know the torque range for the pit-man arm castellated nut? I guess if it is not able to flip, I will re-install the original arm. The tie rod I am Torquing 40-50 lbs ft, is this correct?
Thanks...Dave
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 09:48 AM   #96
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

No reason it can’t be flipped other than interference. Maybe the drag link will be too long to accommodate the “flip”. Check from wheel lock to wheel lock. I would also make sure that your coupler in the drag link is threaded equally. If not sure, unscrew it clean the threads an start it at both ends at the same time.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 10:11 AM   #97
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

No, there is no interference at all, it just will not go on the splines when flipped over? Is it maybe a slightly tapered fit? Maybe the other side is a slightly smaller opening??
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 10:37 AM   #98
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,900
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

It's tapered, ain't it?

No flippee.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 11:07 AM   #99
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Is it? it did not look it, so if it it is, then it very slight! I wonder it it could be heated up and bent down toward the floor (away from the oil pan). The 37 arm is bent and the 36 is not. To bad the bend is the wrong way!
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 11:09 AM   #100
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,900
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Find someone with oxy acetylene gear and heat it up and bend it to the shape you want. let it cool slowly.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 11:19 AM   #101
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Yes, so since this will give you the clearance, you will need to heat and bend. No throwing it in a bucket of water to cool it down as Mart mentioned!

Last edited by glennpm; 11-01-2019 at 03:15 PM.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 11:41 AM   #102
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

The taper for the rod end may be wrong too. There is a drill or reamer that will put a taper in from the opposite side, half way through the Pitman arm hole.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-01-2019, 12:30 PM   #103
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

re-read post #6. I have the truck oil pan on a 8BA in my '38. I had to bend the 78 arm down to clear the pan. After it is bent down, the end that connects to the drag link has to bent up to get it in the right plane. It looks similar to a "Z" when done.

Last edited by 40cpe; 11-01-2019 at 12:38 PM.
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 12:54 PM   #104
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
Is it? it did not look it, so if it it is, then it very slight! I wonder it it could be heated up and bent down toward the floor (away from the oil pan). The 37 arm is bent and the 36 is not. To bad the bend is the wrong way!

Dave...You're half-way there! The splines ARE tapered. Like a couple of others have said, heat (cherry red) and bend that arm where the bend is. Put the big end of the arm in a big, hefty vise. Heat at the bend and use a BFH to bend it to the shape you want. DO NOT cool it in water...let it cool naturally. Put it on the steering box, loosely fit the drag link in the taper, and see if it will travel full swing without hitting the pan. If you feel like you need to bend the small end, or if you still need to tweak the big end a little more, go for it. Someone above suggested that the taper angle in the small hole MIGHT be different...NOT SO! ALL of those tapered holes for tie rods and drag links (on Fords) are tapered at 7 degrees. This is where that 11A Pitman arm probably would have been the better choice because it's straight. Let us know how this works out. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 03:16 PM   #105
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Hi V8Coopman,


What I was trying to tell him in message #102 is that if he needs to put the rod end in from the opposite side of the Pitman arm to get extra clearance, the taper will be in the wrong direction. I didn't say anything about the taper angle being other than 7.


Glenn
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 10:28 PM   #106
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
Dave...You're half-way there! The splines ARE tapered. Like a couple of others have said, heat (cherry red) and bend that arm where the bend is. Put the big end of the arm in a big, hefty vise. Heat at the bend and use a BFH to bend it to the shape you want. DO NOT cool it in water...let it cool naturally. Put it on the steering box, loosely fit the drag link in the taper, and see if it will travel full swing without hitting the pan. If you feel like you need to bend the small end, or if you still need to tweak the big end a little more, go for it. Someone above suggested that the taper angle in the small hole MIGHT be different...NOT SO! ALL of those tapered holes for tie rods and drag links (on Fords) are tapered at 7 degrees. This is where that 11A Pitman arm probably would have been the better choice because it's straight. Let us know how this works out. DD
If you look at post #85 that you posted you will see the 37 arm actually has a double bend, one in each direction vs the 36 arm which is dead straight! I am thinking if I was to get it heated up and take both the bends out and make it straight like the 36 arm it might do the trick as far as clearing the oil-pan and be at the proper plane because it will be straight like the orig 36 arm. My worry is that taking both bends out will make it longer and then might interfere with the other arm that ties the 2 spindles together. I will post pics of the 37 arm in place with the wheels straight. This would be the closest it would come to the bar that connects the spindles. I am thinking of taking the big bend out first, then try it as you suggest, but I am afraid it will be on the wrong plane because the bottom/little bend will still be in it so it will now sit cocked. Should I just take them both out first shot. It is going to be close!!

Also, in post #78 there is a link to eBay for the 11A arm, if you look at the pics you will see it also has a bend in it, it is not straight. Also not sure of the length on this one
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20191101_223353.jpg (52.0 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg 20191101_224158.jpg (89.4 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg 20191101_230212.jpg (46.1 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg 20191101_230229.jpg (48.8 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg 20191101_230316.jpg (79.4 KB, 32 views)
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 05:18 AM   #107
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,900
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I agree.
You might already be in that territory now. (But hard to judge it that finely from here).

If it were me I would try the following.
Turn the steering to the left until the arm just clears the pan by about 1/8".
Decide if that is enough steering lock for normal driving.
If it is then put washers under the stop nut on the left hand kingpin locking bolt. Make sure you have enough thread left to allow the nut to be tightened.

Drive it and see how it goes. You will probably only very rarely encounter a problem where you do not have enough lock, and a double shuffle can normally allow the manouvre to be completed.

A lot of modified cars have less than normal steering lock angles for a number of reasons. My roadster, for one. I've never noticed a problem in getting on for 20 years. On my car I couldn't put enough washers in, I used a modified lugnut as a stop because it had a bigger head.

Of course the best fix would be to heat and dent the pan. But until you are ready to pull the pan to do that maybe the compromise above is enough to stop you having to worry about it.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 11:31 AM   #108
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Hi Mart,
You have got me scratching my head on this one. My Pit man arm is not what is hitting the oil pan, it is the drag link.Is that what you meant? It is already established that my steering to the left is not enough, if it was enough I would not be trying to fix it. It is not enough while it is HITTING the oil pan, if I was to give the drag link 1/8 clearance it would be even worse. I have a steep downhill driveway with a 180 deg turn in it and I can just barely make it now smashing into the oil pan hard.
If that pan is coming off it is not going back on, I will find the correct oil pan, pick up and pump to fix the situation. See post #29. This oil pan is shot anyway, between the deep gouge,the gaskets on the clean out,and oil pan to motor are leaking badly. Is it possible to heat and dent it without removing it? As far as removing and installing the pan, can it be done without removing the motor? It sure looks like a tough job. I am sure it would not be with the original 36 motor, but I do not know. This car is a whole different world for me.
Thank you
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 12:57 PM   #109
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I snapped a picture on my 32 to show the King pin lock bolt that Mart mentions. This is probably not what you want to do based on your response to him.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg King Pin Locking Bolt.jpg (66.4 KB, 24 views)
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 01:07 PM   #110
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Regarding dropping the pan without pulling the motor, a lot of work but best long term solution. These are a couple of links I found for your info.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...1&postcount=10

https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/rem...an-219576.html

and this post by tbirdhandyman:
https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/pr...=18&Topic=3601

Not sure if mentioned in the above links, but removing the drag and tie rods will probably be required too. Jacking the motor up with the spacers will allow tight access to replacing the front main seal. Timing cover would have to be pulled too for the seal replacement.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 01:36 PM   #111
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,900
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Ok David, fair play. I did not know that you were struggling even with it hitting the pan.

It looks increasingly like fixing this properly by modifying the pan is the only way forward.

If it were me, I'd clear the area by dropping the links and take a nice ball pein hammer and start dressing the pan back in that area (denting it). If it dents ok without splitting you might have enough clearance and be good to go. If it splits you will probably have to pull the pan anyway.

I'm not sure if you can just dent the pan, or if there is something inside there that would be damaged by denting it.

All that said, if you pull the pan you could fit the correct pieces (if you can obtain them) and put the job to bed.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 03:09 PM   #112
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
My worry is that taking both bends out will make it longer and then might interfere with the other arm that ties the 2 spindles together.

Hey Dave...Ain't these old cars fun, yeah? Well, being new to this, I can imagine your frustration. Stick with this and over the years to come, you will begin to understand the "beast" with all of it's idiosyncrasies and interchange possibilities.


Now, to your problem at hand....let's say that you do make your bends, and let's say that you do end-up with an overall length that allows the drag link to touch the TIE ROD (the rod connecting the two spindles). I would merely bend the Pitman arm DOWN just a skosh lower (more bend at the BIG HOLE end) so that the small end sits just below the tie rod. In theory it seems, this should move the drag link even farther away from the pan in a left turn.


You know, in looking at your pictures again, and realizing that the drag link attaches to the Pitman from the bottom, I believe that I would NOT attempt to bend (or straighten) the drag link hole. By being bent DOWNWARD already, that seems to facilitate moving the drag link downward and hence, away from the pan, or so it seems in your pictures. Yes/no? DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!





Last edited by V8COOPMAN; 11-02-2019 at 03:19 PM.
V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 03:30 PM   #113
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I'm told the Mercury '49-'50, maybe '51, too, is the pan to use but I can't verify that. I'm attaching pictures of my bent-to-clear-arm. You will notice the front shot shows how much it is below the axle. The last shot shows the wheels turned in the maximum left turn position.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pitmanarm1.jpg (48.3 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg pitmanarm2.jpg (68.2 KB, 82 views)
File Type: jpg pitmanarm3.jpg (63.6 KB, 32 views)
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 04:46 PM   #114
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

That UPPER bend is pretty much the shape I was suggesting in my most-recent post an hour or two ago. Only difference between yours' and Dave's is that you have a '38 box and his is the old '36 box. Not sure how close the two locations match-up. Good pics! These pix should help Dave see what we're suggesting. DD


__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 11:10 AM   #115
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Glenn: Yes, that is the nut I figured he was referring to. Also thank for the links, although different cars, great ref material
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 11:13 AM   #116
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart View Post
Ok David, fair play. I did not know that you were struggling even with it hitting the pan.

It looks increasingly like fixing this properly by modifying the pan is the only way forward.

If it were me, I'd clear the area by dropping the links and take a nice ball pein hammer and start dressing the pan back in that area (denting it). If it dents ok without splitting you might have enough clearance and be good to go. If it splits you will probably have to pull the pan anyway.

I'm not sure if you can just dent the pan, or if there is something inside there that would be damaged by denting it.

All that said, if you pull the pan you could fit the correct pieces (if you can obtain them) and put the job to bed.

Mart.
I do not want to touch the pan because of the huge gouge that is already there from the drag link bolt hitting it. I am afraid it will crack out! Do you think the Merc pan, pick-up and pump are that hard to obtain?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 11:20 AM   #117
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,900
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Others that are based in the USA would be better able to advise on that one.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 11:24 AM   #118
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
Hey Dave...Ain't these old cars fun, yeah? Well, being new to this, I can imagine your frustration. Stick with this and over the years to come, you will begin to understand the "beast" with all of it's idiosyncrasies and interchange possibilities.


Now, to your problem at hand....let's say that you do make your bends, and let's say that you do end-up with an overall length that allows the drag link to touch the TIE ROD (the rod connecting the two spindles). I would merely bend the Pitman arm DOWN just a skosh lower (more bend at the BIG HOLE end) so that the small end sits just below the tie rod. In theory it seems, this should move the drag link even farther away from the pan in a left turn.


You know, in looking at your pictures again, and realizing that the drag link attaches to the Pitman from the bottom, I believe that I would NOT attempt to bend (or straighten) the drag link hole. By being bent DOWNWARD already, that seems to facilitate moving the drag link downward and hence, away from the pan, or so it seems in your pictures. Yes/no? DD
Oh yeah, a real party! Doesn't help that my Cobra is on the lift and not running at present so it is all on my back with a bum knee.
I hear what you are saying about the little end bending down, but if you really look at it, when I straighten the top bend, the downward turn of the little end actually will be locating it closer to the pan. I think I will just do the big end and then see what I need after that.
Will Mapp gas work instead of Acetylene? I do have some of those yellow bottles I believe. Also, would you happen to know the Torque range for the Pit-man arm castellated nut
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 11:36 AM   #119
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40cpe View Post
I'm told the Mercury '49-'50, maybe '51, too, is the pan to use but I can't verify that. I'm attaching pictures of my bent-to-clear-arm. You will notice the front shot shows how much it is below the axle. The last shot shows the wheels turned in the maximum left turn position.
Amazing how much lower your drag link is than your tie-rod. I am assuming you meant tie-rod, not axle?
The pan you have in the pics is the pan that I have a present. Have you ever done the clean-out cover? I did and found out the bolts are not held in place so how do you tighten it up when you have no access to the inside to hold the bolt head? I ended up getting studs with Allen key openings in the bottom and double nutting the other end (inside the pan). Also did not change the gasket inside the pan. The whole deal leaks like crazy so I plan on getting back in there at some point
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 11:38 AM   #120
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Don't think you can get enough heat out of MAPP, it takes a lot of heat and works best with a rose tip.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 11:57 AM   #121
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Hi David,


I don't believe the MAPP gas will get it hot enough. You need to get it to around 1500F. The MAPP gas may be hot enough but you need more volume of heated air from the torch.



I'd look for an old time service station or muffler shop. It would probably be cheaper there than going to a welding shop where there may be a minimum charge in my experience anyway.


Glenn
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 11:58 AM   #122
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I thought someone said I could use Mapp because it burns much hotter. Maybe it was somewhere else on the Internet. Rose tip, don't know what that is but I will find out.
thank you
edit: Just found a "rosebud" tip on the internet, I am assuming this is what you meant
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-03-2019, 11:58 AM   #123
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Thanks Glenn
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 01:15 PM   #124
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Yep, rosebud. I could be wrong on the MAPP! I have only used it on small portable welding setup. Never liked it.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 01:42 PM   #125
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

You're welcome David!

You need more heated volume of gas, i.e., Oxy-Acetylene which you can't get with the MAPP. It is hot enough but not enough heated volume of gas such as you can get with a rosebud. The MAPP flame would be smaller and cover less area. You need more heated air volume, 1500F or so, over a much larger area of the pitman arm to make the bend.


Glenn

Last edited by glennpm; 11-03-2019 at 03:08 PM.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 02:47 PM   #126
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
Amazing how much lower your drag link is than your tie-rod. I am assuming you meant tie-rod, not axle?
The pan you have in the pics is the pan that I have a present. Have you ever done the clean-out cover? t
I was referring to the first picture, the pitman arm is lower than the tie rod and the axle. I don't like it, and when I find a sure-fire way to correct it I will. I resealed my large clean out before I installed it on the engine. With good oil and regular changes I don't anticipate ever having to reseal it.
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 07:33 PM   #127
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpm View Post
You're welcome David!

You need more heated volume of gas, i.e., Oxy-Acetylene which you can't get with the MAPP. It is hot enough but not enough heated volume of gas such as you can get with a rosebud. The MAPP flame would be smaller and cover less area. You need more heated air volume, 1500F or so, over a much larger area of the pitman arm to make the bend.


Glenn
Do you think after it is hot enough I could bend it with a big pipe vs Banging it with a hammer?

How about MAPP and one of those spreader tips?

A friend of mine is going to loan me his oxy setup and he is borrowing a rosebud tip from his brother. He was wondering about doing it while installed on the car. He has not seen the thickness of this arm though
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 07:40 PM   #128
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
Doesn't help that my Cobra is on the lift and not running at present so it is all on my back with a bum knee.

Will Mapp gas work instead of Acetylene? I do have some of those yellow bottles I believe. Also, would you happen to know the Torque range for the Pit-man arm castellated nut

Yo, Dave....I don't quite feel yur pain...MY knees have hurt the past 30 + years, I don't have a lift, and I don't have a Cobra!


Seriously though, take a peek at the YouTube video in the link below. It shows a couple of guys using a rosebud acetylene tip to heat and bend a couple of old Ford spindle arms. These are essentially the same forged steel that's used in your Pitman arm. This video should give you an idea of how hot you need to get that arm, keeping in mind that your Pitman arm is actually a larger cross section, meaning you'll have to heat just a little longer for the greater mass of your arm. Also, you may notice that he's bending with a large adjustable wrench (more control) rather than whanging on it with a BFH. I spent a good bit of time yesterday looking for the torque on that old Ford nut. Couldn't find it! I did come across a similar-sized Mustang nut and they said 150 ft. lbs. PLUS! I'd snug it up to a similar tightness and continue turning the nut 'til you can insert a cotter pin. Click on the link below! DD


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uZZ74MR7v4
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 07:46 PM   #129
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

The volume of heat needed I think you would go through those MAPP tanks faster than you could change them!
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 08:02 PM   #130
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
Yo, Dave....I don't quite feel yur pain...MY knees have hurt the past 30 + years, I don't have a lift, and I don't have a Cobra!


Seriously though, take a peek at the YouTube video in the link below. It shows a couple of guys using a rosebud acetylene tip to heat and bend a couple of old Ford spindle arms. These are essentially the same forged steel that's used in your Pitman arm. This video should give you an idea of how hot you need to get that arm, keeping in mind that your Pitman arm is actually a larger cross section, meaning you'll have to heat just a little longer for the greater mass of your arm. Also, you may notice that he's bending with a large adjustable wrench (more control) rather than whanging on it with a BFH. I spent a good bit of time yesterday looking for the torque on that old Ford nut. Couldn't find it! I did come across a similar-sized Mustang nut and they said 150 ft. lbs. PLUS! I'd snug it up to a similar tightness and continue turning the nut 'til you can insert a cotter pin. Click on the link below! DD


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uZZ74MR7v4
Yes I had the achy knee/bone on bone for a long time. Between both knees, I have had 6 arthroscopic surgeries for Meniscus tears, I finally opted on a left knee replacement 3 months ago. I don't know if this was smart move at all. I am in a lot more pain now than before the surgery! Hopefully with time it will get much better. My other knee is now just as bad and I was going to get the replacement on that also but now I am holding off until this one gets much better



I guess you need to get a Cobra then...LOL


Great video, I do have a much better idea of what to expect and how hot to get it. I guess that also answers my question about doing it on the car. I would be nice to do it in place and get everything exactly where you want it. I dont think I have enough room under there anyway, but maybe.


I have also been looking all over the place for the required Torque on the Pit-man arm nut. When removing, it sure was not on there with 150 ft lbs! It felt like about 60!
While I'm asking, what is the torque on the drag link to Pit-man arm castellated nut. Somewhere I read 40-50 ft lbs???
Dave
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 08:25 PM   #131
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
Between both knees, I have had 6 arthroscopic surgeries for Meniscus tears, I finally opted on a left knee replacement 3 months ago.




I would be nice to do it in place and get everything exactly where you want it. I dont think I have enough room under there anyway, but maybe.


It felt like about 60!
While I'm asking, what is the torque on the drag link to Pit-man arm castellated nut. Somewhere I read 40-50 ft lbs???
Dave

OK, you win on the knees! I will never own a Cobra!!


I'm not sure what you're implying here, but DO NOT heat that arm while on the steering box. At the least, it'll never retain lubricant again!


I believe I'd feel comfortable with "pretty damned snug" PLUS any additional turn required to insert cotter key. On the drag link castellated nut, I'd feel good with 35-40 PLUS additional turn to the cotter key hole. Insert that taper clean and DRY. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 09:05 PM   #132
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

David, I can't give an exact procedure to accomplish what are are trying to do. I have not done this exact swap. Maybe try the hamb also.


Few things to consider:


Changing out the steering box. As posted above.

Bending the steering arm. Mapp gas won't do it, you will need someone experienced with a torch. Even then a 36 stock arm might not be long enough. *** just remember the lower you drop it the more you increase the possibility of the "death wobble". Angles are important.

Shorting the drag link is not a big deal.

Do one thing at a time .

Some nonsense and observations just looking through this thread.



.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 09:08 PM   #133
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
I'm not sure what you're implying here, but DO NOT heat that arm while on the steering box. At the least, it'll never retain lubricant again!

Do they ever retain oil? haha just kidding.


Ya it needs to be removed. It's some thick stuff, you'll need to heat it and add pressure.


Just my opinion.


.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 11:53 PM   #134
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
OK, you win on the knees! I will never own a Cobra!!


I'm not sure what you're implying here, but DO NOT heat that arm while on the steering box. At the least, it'll never retain lubricant again!


I believe I'd feel comfortable with "pretty damned snug" PLUS any additional turn required to insert cotter key. On the drag link castellated nut, I'd feel good with 35-40 PLUS additional turn to the cotter key hole. Insert that taper clean and DRY. DD
The knees are not a contest I am very proud to win! Hows you back? I had lower back surgery a year and a half ago and that came out decent.
If you ever get to CT, I will give you a ride, you might change your mind about the Cobra unless you hate punch in the mouth fast noisy cars...LOL.


I was implying that and now I am straightened out on that...thanks


Thanks for the guess Torque specs. Agree with the 35-40 on the drag link but pretty damn snug is a lot less than 150 ft lbs in my head, sounds more like 80 to me

I guess I will have to do that unless somebody has the the correct specs.

clean and dry....will do
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 11:57 PM   #135
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinker View Post
David, I can't give an exact procedure to accomplish what are are trying to do. I have not done this exact swap. Maybe try the hamb also.


Few things to consider:


Changing out the steering box. As posted above.

Bending the steering arm. Mapp gas won't do it, you will need someone experienced with a torch. Even then a 36 stock arm might not be long enough. *** just remember the lower you drop it the more you increase the possibility of the "death wobble". Angles are important.

Shorting the drag link is not a big deal.

Do one thing at a time .

Some nonsense and observations just looking through this thread.



.
I was going to use the 37 longer arm that I just purchased, that is the arm with the bends. I am afraid to ask, What the hell is the "death wobble"???
What does "shorting the drag link" mean?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 12:03 AM   #136
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

When changing or lower a vehicle sometimes one or the other needs to be shortened. Usually it's the tie rod not the drag. Both can be shortened, usually the tie rod.


Death wobble is usually associated with raising a vehicle beyond its normal design. But can also be relevant with lowering a vehicle or changing angles in steering to extreme. ...Also loose components. link ends, kingpins, etc. In your instance I wouldn't worry about it till you drive it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncTgYl7P_TE


.

Last edited by Tinker; 11-04-2019 at 12:13 AM.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 12:15 AM   #137
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I am not raising or lowering the vehicle?


That video is crazy!!! Do you really think I could get that by just increasing the length of the Pit-man arm and inch?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 12:20 AM   #138
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Nope, I do not. Not too extreme. I was commenting on lower the arm not lengthening it. You will probably need to just adjust the tie linkage later to set toe. No big whoop, just a concept to think about when doing things.

Last edited by Tinker; 11-04-2019 at 12:40 AM.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 12:47 AM   #139
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinker View Post
Nope, I do not. Not too extreme. I was commenting on lower the arm not lengthening it. You will probably need to just adjust the tie linkage later to set toe. No big whoop, just a concept to think about when doing things.
The end result will be the the drag ling end of the Pit-man arm will be a little lower and forward of the oil pan. I would think I would need to adjust the length of the drag link only with no adjustment to the tie rod at all. Am I missing something?
Thanks
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 12:50 AM   #140
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

If you have enough play on the drag to do so. Then you are good. Might be a combo, should between the two. Hope it all works out well!

Last edited by Tinker; 11-04-2019 at 12:55 AM.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 02:02 AM   #141
Tom-MI
Junior Member
 
Tom-MI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 19
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I can't believe the length of this thread. Wouldn't the simplest solution be to just change the pan to a '49-'51 Mercury? '52-'53 pans are different.

Last edited by Tom-MI; 11-04-2019 at 07:19 PM. Reason: clarity
Tom-MI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 07:29 AM   #142
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Regarding the torque, 120-130 FT-LB. See message #9 from below but "good and tight" is good!



https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1514437


Glenn
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-04-2019, 07:42 AM   #143
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

One thing I never thought of: All this time I have been dealing with this problem it has been with no weight on the wheels. If I get this to the point where it operates with no interference anywhere, what will happen when I lower it down onto its own weight? I know the pit-man arm will stay where it is, but I am thinking the drag link and tie rod will raise up in relation to the oil pan. Also the drag link and tie rod may change a bit in relation to each other? Is my thinking wrong here and can I do anything to anticipate, compensate and avoid more issues?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 09:44 AM   #144
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

The steering box and the engine are both anchored to the frame. You already have your axle on stands, so the weight of the car is on the springs and your suspension will change very little.
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 10:02 AM   #145
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
The end result will be the the drag ling end of the Pit-man arm will be a little lower and forward of the oil pan. I would think I would need to adjust the length of the drag link only with no adjustment to the tie rod at all. Am I missing something?
Thanks

Dave...You're not doing anything that should require ANY adjustment to the TIE ROD length. Also, you're effectively changing the angle on the drag link to such a small degree that I doubt you'll need much, if any lengthening.


I love "noisy" cars that can make your face look funny upon leaving a light. I DO appreciate the Cobras, but I've been a Corvette guy for 51 years now. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 10:06 AM   #146
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,900
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

There's no real solution to this except to pull the pan and either modify it or replace it. The longer steering arm will make your steering heavier. Bending the arm down so far that it is hanging below the vehicle doesn't look like a good idea to me.The 36 box is not as efficient as the 37 up box, so will struggle with the longer arm.
the basic problem is that someone fitted an engine without using the correct pan for the swap. The only way to fix it realistically is to swap the parts or remove the parts and modify them.

While I might be prepared to attempt some kind of in situ mods to the pan, I can't advise you to do that because if it goes wrong when I'm doing it I'm fully prepared to do the work to put it right. If it goes wrong for you I can't help you and you would blame me for giving bad advice.

I've only ever dropped a pan in vehicle once before and it's not a lot of fun.

The only other solution would be to move house.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 10:11 AM   #147
Kerk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 571
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

There is probably a V 8 Club member in the area that could help this LOOG discussion to a satisfactory solution JMHO !
Kerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 10:17 AM   #148
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
One thing I never thought of: All this time I have been dealing with this problem it has been with no weight on the wheels. If I get this to the point where it operates with no interference anywhere, what will happen when I lower it down onto its own weight? I know the pit-man arm will stay where it is, but I am thinking the drag link and tie rod will raise up in relation to the oil pan. Also the drag link and tie rod may change a bit in relation to each other? Is my thinking wrong here and can I do anything to anticipate, compensate and avoid more issues?

David...If you have your jack stands set under the I-beam axle, everything is in the same relative plane as if the tires were on the ground. Now, if you have the jack stands supporting the frame rails, all bets are off as the axle, tie rod, tires/wheels etc. are all hanging down from the un-sprung (relaxed) spring. Please tell us that your jack stands are supporting the I-beam axle itself....? DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 11:12 AM   #149
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

pics in post 106 page 6 show stands under the front axle.
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 11:34 AM   #150
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40cpe View Post
The steering box and the engine are both anchored to the frame. You already have your axle on stands, so the weight of the car is on the springs and your suspension will change very little.
I just sold some tranny fluid I had advertised an old timer who recognized the car as a 36 immediately. We talked for a while, he knew a ton and had restored a few of these old cars. He told me exactly what you just told me
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 11:39 AM   #151
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
Dave...You're not doing anything that should require ANY adjustment to the TIE ROD length. Also, you're effectively changing the angle on the drag link to such a small degree that I doubt you'll need much, if any lengthening.


I love "noisy" cars that can make your face look funny upon leaving a light. I DO appreciate the Cobras, but I've been a Corvette guy for 51 years now. DD
Good news on the drag link.


I was a GM guy my whole life until about 15 years ago. I went thru my vette period. I had a 64, 65, and my favorite...1960 in that order, then I got hooked on owning a cobra. Ended up with a Mustang and now the 36
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 11:40 AM   #152
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
David...If you have your jack stands set under the I-beam axle, everything is in the same relative plane as if the tires were on the ground. Now, if you have the jack stands supporting the frame rails, all bets are off as the axle, tie rod, tires/wheels etc. are all hanging down from the un-sprung (relaxed) spring. Please tell us that your jack stands are supporting the I-beam axle itself....? DD

Yes, under the I beam itself!!!!
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 12:12 PM   #153
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,900
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

But you still need to allow for suspension movement. But at least the movement diminishes as you move along the drag link towards the steering box.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 12:45 PM   #154
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

You will notice that my drag link has about 3/4" of clearance on the oil pan at extreme left turn. I have no marks of rubbing in driving 4000+ miles.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pitmanarm3.jpg (63.6 KB, 19 views)
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 01:19 PM   #155
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennpm View Post
Regarding the torque, 120-130 FT-LB. See message #9 from below but "good and tight" is good!



https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1514437


Glenn
Excellent Glenn, thank you. I saved it, very valuable!!! I wonder why it was so hard to find?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 01:35 PM   #156
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom-MI View Post
I can't believe the length of this thread. Wouldn't the simplest solution be to just change the pan to a '49-'53 Mercury?
It might have gotten long but there is great info for others in the future.
I already have a 49-53 pan but apparently the wrong one for a car. Simplest, I don't think so!
So, I dont have the correct pan, pump, or pick up. Doing the pan job looks like a nightmare of a job which I am not up too at the moment. This is a 49-53 Merc engine in a 36 Ford...it is tight under there. Down the road I will most probably be changing the pan and then I will put the 36 arm back on.
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 02:01 PM   #157
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom-MI View Post
I can't believe the length of this thread. Wouldn't the simplest solution be to just change the pan to a '49-'53 Mercury?
Tom, I have a couple of questions about using a Mercury pan on the 8BA in a '30s car. Is the Mercury pan a proven cure for this situation? Also, Mercury changed body styles in '52, does '52 and '53 pans fit as well as the earlier ones?

I've seen pictures of the Mercury pans and they look deep so I'm looking for verification that it is a cure. It seems that the Mercury pans with the correct pick up tube is scarce.
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 04:08 PM   #158
Tom-MI
Junior Member
 
Tom-MI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 19
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

This is an old swap item. I have never done it but I torn down a '46 Ford two years ago for parts that had an 8BA engine in it. It had the early pan for steering clearance. I sold the pan(and pump), a month ago for $50 bucks to a guy who was going to use it on a '35 he was putting a '53 Mercury engine into. They are still out there. A quick check on the web found two (kinda pricey). The part numbers you should look for are: 8CM6675C or 8CM6675D. The oil pump is: 8CM6600B, the oil screen is 8CM6615.

Hope this helps.

Tom
Tom-MI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 05:27 PM   #159
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Here's the '49-early '51 (I think) Mercury pan. I'd start looking now, 'cuz there ain't THAT MANY left out there. I've been looking for two hours to come up with these pics.


Dave...I won't mention that I have ONE of this whole set-up in my stash, but I need to keep for a future project. DD







__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 05:58 PM   #160
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I think I said they are kind of scarce. Do you really need the specific oil pump, or just the pick up tube and screen?
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 10:33 PM   #161
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

V8coopman...what a tease!
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 10:40 PM   #162
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom-MI View Post
This is an old swap item. I have never done it but I torn down a '46 Ford two years ago for parts that had an 8BA engine in it. It had the early pan for steering clearance. I sold the pan(and pump), a month ago for $50 bucks to a guy who was going to use it on a '35 he was putting a '53 Mercury engine into. They are still out there. A quick check on the web found two (kinda pricey). The part numbers you should look for are: 8CM6675C or 8CM6675D. The oil pump is: 8CM6600B, the oil screen is 8CM6615.

Hope this helps.

Tom
I just did a search on all of the numbers and found nothing at all for sale? Could you post a link?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-06-2019, 12:51 AM   #163
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,412
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Can anybody remind me what is the purpose of the angle bracket bolted onto the rear of this '49 Merc pan? It's been so long that I just don't remember. DD


__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


I may not be the BEST, but I'll do 'til he gets here!




V8COOPMAN is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2019, 06:58 AM   #164
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 747
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Hi DD,

I think it is to provide additional stiffness and support of the starter plate/flywheel cover, but the starter is well supported anyway with the through bolts. Seems like you could run without the bracket. Maybe a few starts by a helper while you're looking at the starter and plate.

Vanpelts page on this is good:

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...s-adapters.htm

Glenn

Last edited by glennpm; 11-06-2019 at 07:23 AM.
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2019, 07:05 AM   #165
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 5,900
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Extra strengthening brackets like that are often used for "anti beaming". It is to brace the lower edge of the transmission bell to the motor, increasing the beam strength of the whole unit. It is normally to improve NVH qualities. (Noise vibration harshness). Can't say if that was what they were for specifically in this case, but I have seen many applications where they are used.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2019, 09:07 AM   #166
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I ended up purchasing the Lincoln Electric "Port a Torch" oxy acetylene kit. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Lincoln-Ele...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
I now need to buy a rosebud tip for this setup I bought. The #1 tip does from 29000-51000 BTU and the #2 tip goes from 44000 -74000BTU. Would anybody know what I would need to buy?
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2019, 10:42 AM   #167
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I'm not a welding expert, but I have an O/A set up for my use in my shop. I've learned that you can put too large a rosebud on your torch and the acetylene can't produce gas fast enough to fuel the torch. The torch will pop and go out. I read the question and answer section of the link you provided and an answer by Lincoln said "There is not a rosebud heating tip available this this kit."
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 12:40 AM   #168
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Really, I will have to read that. Just read what you read and I think the answer that was given meant there was no rosebud tip included in this kit. I will call and get clarification tomorrow. The tech at Harris today said I need a number one and the tank will handle that fine but not for extended periods. I have been reading a lot of stuff online tonight and it seems you can bend it using the cutting tip but never hitting the cutting lever?? It will take longer to heat but probable a lot safer. I will have to read more
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 08:13 AM   #169
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,389
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

It has to do with the size of the acetylene tank. Smaller tanks don't convert the acetone as fast as a larger tank, therefore can't supply enough gas for high consumption tips. Although there is a misprint in Lincoln's answer, I think he meant that there is not a rosebud available that is rated for that size tank. You are on the right track seeking additional information.
40cpe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 09:49 AM   #170
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

As I said, not what they told me yesterday on the phone, but I will call back to get clarification. The reason you are giving is exactly why he was recommending the #1 tip and not a #2. I have been reading some more stuff online and I may try just heating with the cutting tip but never hitting the cutting lever. It will take longer to heat but hopefully will do the job. I have got a lot to learn because I have never operated welding torches before
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2019, 01:25 PM   #171
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I called them back and they again recommended the Rosebud tip and tube with the part numbers. They said that post did mean it did not come with the kit and apologized for the misunderstanding. He said with the size of these bottle I wont benefit much with the Rosebud tip vs the cutting tip that comes with the kit. I will give it a try with the cutting tip...and of course I will NOT be hitting the cutting lever...LOL
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2019, 10:40 PM   #172
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 4,994
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Seems like you are thinking about the issue, very good. Set on a direct. At some point nothing is better then just doing it. Research is crucial. Time to just do it.


I'm a think,think, do guy... not a do,do, think...... I think.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2019, 12:22 PM   #173
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

using Oxy/acetylene is serious business from what I am learning. Don't forget, I am totally new to this and I don't want to blow myself up. I ordered a big 6'x8'welding blanket from Amazon last night. I also still need to put the kit together. Very busy at the moment with pre-Winter chore around the house
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2019, 08:13 PM   #174
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

A bit of a learning curve, but not that much for non-welding applications. You should be up to speed quickly.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 12:22 AM   #175
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

It is more the safety of the whole thing, not getting good at it aspect. I am more worried about what order to shut valves off and turn on stuff, leaks, and stupid mistakes
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 09:20 AM   #176
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,194
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I've never had any issue with the equipment itself, more a concern of what is around what you are working on. Grease and other flammable material in the area are what you need to keep an eye on.
JSeery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 11:32 AM   #177
cas3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: sw minnesota
Posts: 1,853
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

good advise from jseery. years ago i needed a short piece of pipe and the only one i could find was a whole 20' stick. so i drug it into the garage and fired up the torch. while making the cut i heard that familiar "whump" sound that gas makes when lit. the brain remembered it from dad lighting piles of leaves in the fall. anyway, a spark had traveled down the whole length of the pipe and found the tin oil drain pan with some gas in it from cleaning some parts a day or so before. it was outside near the edge of the concrete apron, so i was able to just shove it out on the gravel and tip it over to save my pan. not a crisis, but it very well could have been. keep an eye on where your sparks from a grinder are flyin too, they will always find a rag or paper towel in my mess.
cas3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 07:18 PM   #178
davids2toys
Senior Member
 
davids2toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southbury Ct
Posts: 135
Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Good advice...thanks
davids2toys is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:08 PM.