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Old 11-01-2019, 11:19 AM   #101
glennpm
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Yes, so since this will give you the clearance, you will need to heat and bend. No throwing it in a bucket of water to cool it down as Mart mentioned!

Last edited by glennpm; 11-01-2019 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 11-01-2019, 11:41 AM   #102
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

The taper for the rod end may be wrong too. There is a drill or reamer that will put a taper in from the opposite side, half way through the Pitman arm hole.
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Old 11-01-2019, 12:30 PM   #103
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

re-read post #6. I have the truck oil pan on a 8BA in my '38. I had to bend the 78 arm down to clear the pan. After it is bent down, the end that connects to the drag link has to bent up to get it in the right plane. It looks similar to a "Z" when done.

Last edited by 40cpe; 11-01-2019 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 11-01-2019, 12:54 PM   #104
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

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Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
Is it? it did not look it, so if it it is, then it very slight! I wonder it it could be heated up and bent down toward the floor (away from the oil pan). The 37 arm is bent and the 36 is not. To bad the bend is the wrong way!

Dave...You're half-way there! The splines ARE tapered. Like a couple of others have said, heat (cherry red) and bend that arm where the bend is. Put the big end of the arm in a big, hefty vise. Heat at the bend and use a BFH to bend it to the shape you want. DO NOT cool it in water...let it cool naturally. Put it on the steering box, loosely fit the drag link in the taper, and see if it will travel full swing without hitting the pan. If you feel like you need to bend the small end, or if you still need to tweak the big end a little more, go for it. Someone above suggested that the taper angle in the small hole MIGHT be different...NOT SO! ALL of those tapered holes for tie rods and drag links (on Fords) are tapered at 7 degrees. This is where that 11A Pitman arm probably would have been the better choice because it's straight. Let us know how this works out. DD
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:16 PM   #105
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Hi V8Coopman,


What I was trying to tell him in message #102 is that if he needs to put the rod end in from the opposite side of the Pitman arm to get extra clearance, the taper will be in the wrong direction. I didn't say anything about the taper angle being other than 7.


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Old 11-01-2019, 10:28 PM   #106
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

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Dave...You're half-way there! The splines ARE tapered. Like a couple of others have said, heat (cherry red) and bend that arm where the bend is. Put the big end of the arm in a big, hefty vise. Heat at the bend and use a BFH to bend it to the shape you want. DO NOT cool it in water...let it cool naturally. Put it on the steering box, loosely fit the drag link in the taper, and see if it will travel full swing without hitting the pan. If you feel like you need to bend the small end, or if you still need to tweak the big end a little more, go for it. Someone above suggested that the taper angle in the small hole MIGHT be different...NOT SO! ALL of those tapered holes for tie rods and drag links (on Fords) are tapered at 7 degrees. This is where that 11A Pitman arm probably would have been the better choice because it's straight. Let us know how this works out. DD
If you look at post #85 that you posted you will see the 37 arm actually has a double bend, one in each direction vs the 36 arm which is dead straight! I am thinking if I was to get it heated up and take both the bends out and make it straight like the 36 arm it might do the trick as far as clearing the oil-pan and be at the proper plane because it will be straight like the orig 36 arm. My worry is that taking both bends out will make it longer and then might interfere with the other arm that ties the 2 spindles together. I will post pics of the 37 arm in place with the wheels straight. This would be the closest it would come to the bar that connects the spindles. I am thinking of taking the big bend out first, then try it as you suggest, but I am afraid it will be on the wrong plane because the bottom/little bend will still be in it so it will now sit cocked. Should I just take them both out first shot. It is going to be close!!

Also, in post #78 there is a link to eBay for the 11A arm, if you look at the pics you will see it also has a bend in it, it is not straight. Also not sure of the length on this one
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Old 11-02-2019, 05:18 AM   #107
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I agree.
You might already be in that territory now. (But hard to judge it that finely from here).

If it were me I would try the following.
Turn the steering to the left until the arm just clears the pan by about 1/8".
Decide if that is enough steering lock for normal driving.
If it is then put washers under the stop nut on the left hand kingpin locking bolt. Make sure you have enough thread left to allow the nut to be tightened.

Drive it and see how it goes. You will probably only very rarely encounter a problem where you do not have enough lock, and a double shuffle can normally allow the manouvre to be completed.

A lot of modified cars have less than normal steering lock angles for a number of reasons. My roadster, for one. I've never noticed a problem in getting on for 20 years. On my car I couldn't put enough washers in, I used a modified lugnut as a stop because it had a bigger head.

Of course the best fix would be to heat and dent the pan. But until you are ready to pull the pan to do that maybe the compromise above is enough to stop you having to worry about it.

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Old 11-02-2019, 11:31 AM   #108
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Hi Mart,
You have got me scratching my head on this one. My Pit man arm is not what is hitting the oil pan, it is the drag link.Is that what you meant? It is already established that my steering to the left is not enough, if it was enough I would not be trying to fix it. It is not enough while it is HITTING the oil pan, if I was to give the drag link 1/8 clearance it would be even worse. I have a steep downhill driveway with a 180 deg turn in it and I can just barely make it now smashing into the oil pan hard.
If that pan is coming off it is not going back on, I will find the correct oil pan, pick up and pump to fix the situation. See post #29. This oil pan is shot anyway, between the deep gouge,the gaskets on the clean out,and oil pan to motor are leaking badly. Is it possible to heat and dent it without removing it? As far as removing and installing the pan, can it be done without removing the motor? It sure looks like a tough job. I am sure it would not be with the original 36 motor, but I do not know. This car is a whole different world for me.
Thank you
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Old 11-02-2019, 12:57 PM   #109
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I snapped a picture on my 32 to show the King pin lock bolt that Mart mentions. This is probably not what you want to do based on your response to him.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:07 PM   #110
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Regarding dropping the pan without pulling the motor, a lot of work but best long term solution. These are a couple of links I found for your info.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...1&postcount=10

https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/rem...an-219576.html

and this post by tbirdhandyman:
https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/pr...=18&Topic=3601

Not sure if mentioned in the above links, but removing the drag and tie rods will probably be required too. Jacking the motor up with the spacers will allow tight access to replacing the front main seal. Timing cover would have to be pulled too for the seal replacement.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:36 PM   #111
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Ok David, fair play. I did not know that you were struggling even with it hitting the pan.

It looks increasingly like fixing this properly by modifying the pan is the only way forward.

If it were me, I'd clear the area by dropping the links and take a nice ball pein hammer and start dressing the pan back in that area (denting it). If it dents ok without splitting you might have enough clearance and be good to go. If it splits you will probably have to pull the pan anyway.

I'm not sure if you can just dent the pan, or if there is something inside there that would be damaged by denting it.

All that said, if you pull the pan you could fit the correct pieces (if you can obtain them) and put the job to bed.

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Old 11-02-2019, 03:09 PM   #112
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

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Originally Posted by davids2toys View Post
My worry is that taking both bends out will make it longer and then might interfere with the other arm that ties the 2 spindles together.

Hey Dave...Ain't these old cars fun, yeah? Well, being new to this, I can imagine your frustration. Stick with this and over the years to come, you will begin to understand the "beast" with all of it's idiosyncrasies and interchange possibilities.


Now, to your problem at hand....let's say that you do make your bends, and let's say that you do end-up with an overall length that allows the drag link to touch the TIE ROD (the rod connecting the two spindles). I would merely bend the Pitman arm DOWN just a skosh lower (more bend at the BIG HOLE end) so that the small end sits just below the tie rod. In theory it seems, this should move the drag link even farther away from the pan in a left turn.


You know, in looking at your pictures again, and realizing that the drag link attaches to the Pitman from the bottom, I believe that I would NOT attempt to bend (or straighten) the drag link hole. By being bent DOWNWARD already, that seems to facilitate moving the drag link downward and hence, away from the pan, or so it seems in your pictures. Yes/no? DD
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Last edited by V8COOPMAN; 11-02-2019 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 11-02-2019, 03:30 PM   #113
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

I'm told the Mercury '49-'50, maybe '51, too, is the pan to use but I can't verify that. I'm attaching pictures of my bent-to-clear-arm. You will notice the front shot shows how much it is below the axle. The last shot shows the wheels turned in the maximum left turn position.
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Old 11-02-2019, 04:46 PM   #114
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

That UPPER bend is pretty much the shape I was suggesting in my most-recent post an hour or two ago. Only difference between yours' and Dave's is that you have a '38 box and his is the old '36 box. Not sure how close the two locations match-up. Good pics! These pix should help Dave see what we're suggesting. DD


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Old 11-03-2019, 11:10 AM   #115
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Glenn: Yes, that is the nut I figured he was referring to. Also thank for the links, although different cars, great ref material
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Old 11-03-2019, 11:13 AM   #116
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

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Ok David, fair play. I did not know that you were struggling even with it hitting the pan.

It looks increasingly like fixing this properly by modifying the pan is the only way forward.

If it were me, I'd clear the area by dropping the links and take a nice ball pein hammer and start dressing the pan back in that area (denting it). If it dents ok without splitting you might have enough clearance and be good to go. If it splits you will probably have to pull the pan anyway.

I'm not sure if you can just dent the pan, or if there is something inside there that would be damaged by denting it.

All that said, if you pull the pan you could fit the correct pieces (if you can obtain them) and put the job to bed.

Mart.
I do not want to touch the pan because of the huge gouge that is already there from the drag link bolt hitting it. I am afraid it will crack out! Do you think the Merc pan, pick-up and pump are that hard to obtain?
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Old 11-03-2019, 11:20 AM   #117
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Others that are based in the USA would be better able to advise on that one.
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Old 11-03-2019, 11:24 AM   #118
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
Hey Dave...Ain't these old cars fun, yeah? Well, being new to this, I can imagine your frustration. Stick with this and over the years to come, you will begin to understand the "beast" with all of it's idiosyncrasies and interchange possibilities.


Now, to your problem at hand....let's say that you do make your bends, and let's say that you do end-up with an overall length that allows the drag link to touch the TIE ROD (the rod connecting the two spindles). I would merely bend the Pitman arm DOWN just a skosh lower (more bend at the BIG HOLE end) so that the small end sits just below the tie rod. In theory it seems, this should move the drag link even farther away from the pan in a left turn.


You know, in looking at your pictures again, and realizing that the drag link attaches to the Pitman from the bottom, I believe that I would NOT attempt to bend (or straighten) the drag link hole. By being bent DOWNWARD already, that seems to facilitate moving the drag link downward and hence, away from the pan, or so it seems in your pictures. Yes/no? DD
Oh yeah, a real party! Doesn't help that my Cobra is on the lift and not running at present so it is all on my back with a bum knee.
I hear what you are saying about the little end bending down, but if you really look at it, when I straighten the top bend, the downward turn of the little end actually will be locating it closer to the pan. I think I will just do the big end and then see what I need after that.
Will Mapp gas work instead of Acetylene? I do have some of those yellow bottles I believe. Also, would you happen to know the Torque range for the Pit-man arm castellated nut
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Old 11-03-2019, 11:36 AM   #119
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

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I'm told the Mercury '49-'50, maybe '51, too, is the pan to use but I can't verify that. I'm attaching pictures of my bent-to-clear-arm. You will notice the front shot shows how much it is below the axle. The last shot shows the wheels turned in the maximum left turn position.
Amazing how much lower your drag link is than your tie-rod. I am assuming you meant tie-rod, not axle?
The pan you have in the pics is the pan that I have a present. Have you ever done the clean-out cover? I did and found out the bolts are not held in place so how do you tighten it up when you have no access to the inside to hold the bolt head? I ended up getting studs with Allen key openings in the bottom and double nutting the other end (inside the pan). Also did not change the gasket inside the pan. The whole deal leaks like crazy so I plan on getting back in there at some point
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Old 11-03-2019, 11:38 AM   #120
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Default Re: 36 Ford drag link orientation question

Don't think you can get enough heat out of MAPP, it takes a lot of heat and works best with a rose tip.
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