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Old 11-13-2019, 08:30 PM   #21
ursus
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois View Post
You guys are going about this all wrong. You need to do your homework.

Luckily I'm not too real far from Chicago. I can get a car painted plus $20 free body work by Earl, for $99.95

You just have to shop around I'll show you what I mean look at this 30 second advertisement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auvf7DDw5z0
When did the price go up? in 1970, Earl painted my '49 Chevy for $29.99, including some overspray on the tires. When I complained, they told me the overspray was a bonus. Scheib always gave you a half-pint can of the matching paint so you could touch up the peel-offs that would start to happen a few months later.
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Although the subject article described a highly collectible muscle car being restored to new, or better than new, condition, the unmistakable take away is that contracted restoration work is very expensive. Most of us do not plan to drop off a rough collectable, a starter check, send another check every month, pick up a beautiful piece of rolling stock six months later, and drive to Pebble Beach. Most are happy just to have a nice driver to go on ice cream missions. However, just building a driver can be prohibitively expensive. If there were rules for new folks entering the hobby, Rule #1 would probably be to only pursue a car with a clear title with numbers that match the car, preferably on the engine block. Rule #2 should be to locate a car that is at or close to the condition the new owner plans to maintain it. If a buy-motivated middle aged would-be enthusiast with fundamental wrench bending ability located a $6500 barn find that was solid, complete, rust free, but also dirty, had not run in 30 years, and was something of a critter condo – what kind of advise would you give and why ? Pretty sure the old heads can provide some worthwhile information that would be helpful to a new troop working his way into the Model A culture. Welcome any other thoughts on the recommended rules for buying a Model A.
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:04 PM   #23
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Before I gave my daughter my Rdst. PU that my dad and I restored when I was 15 I re-restored the truck in the color of her choice, red. I was living in central Mexico at the time so I loaded the truck on my trailer and took it about 13 hours south of the border for a face lift. My painter did a pretty good job and it has held up well. Can't remember what I had in it but it was a fraction of the cost of having it done in the states. And to be honest, I couldn't have afforded to have it done in the US.

I'm in the process of restoring two cars now and doing all the work that I can myself. I happen to enjoy working on a car more than driving so the process is saving me money, actually making it possible for the cars to be restored and I'm enjoying the process.
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:41 PM   #24
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

An earlier post mentioned that TCP Global has the original paint codes. I did obtain two spray out samples ($35.00 ea.) for the Kewannee and Elkpointe Green. They were too dark and muddy looking. Don't assume that the colors will be to your liking without getting samples. Ed
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Old 11-14-2019, 03:38 PM   #25
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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An earlier post mentioned that TCP Global has the original paint codes. I did obtain two spray out samples ($35.00 ea.) for the Kewannee and Elkpointe Green. They were too dark and muddy looking. Don't assume that the colors will be to your liking without getting samples. Ed
That is true.....and PPG and Dupont did not have a good color match for the Elkpoint Green. The Kewaunee green was pretty close, but the codes were not correct for Elkpoint.
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Old 11-14-2019, 03:41 PM   #26
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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Most of us do not plan to drop off a rough collectable, a starter check, send another check every month, pick up a beautiful piece of rolling stock six months later, and drive to Pebble Beach. Most are happy just to have a nice driver to go on ice cream missions.

However, just building a driver can be prohibitively expensive. If there were rules for new folks entering the hobby, Rule #1 would probably be to only pursue a car with a clear title with numbers that match the car, preferably on the engine block. Rule #2 should be to locate a car that is at or close to the condition the new owner plans to maintain it. If a buy-motivated middle aged would-be enthusiast with fundamental wrench bending ability located a $6500 barn find that was solid, complete, rust free, but also dirty, had not run in 30 years, and was something of a critter condo – what kind of advise would you give and why ? Pretty sure the old heads can provide some worthwhile information that would be helpful to a new troop working his way into the Model A culture. Welcome any other thoughts on the recommended rules for buying a Model A.
Yeah, you can almost stake your life on not being able to have one restored in 6 months. They only do that type of thing on TV shows!!


Using your analogy of a 30-40 year old restoration that has not been driven, the thing I have typically seen is these cars were parked and not used for a reason. Granted there will always be exceptions but generally it is because the vehicle performed unreliably or poorly where there was usually an issue with it every time it was taken out of the garage, so it just stayed in the garage. Therefore my advice is budget for the worst and hope for the best.

So depending on expectations and goals, my minimum maintenance advice to that newbie would include an engine rebuild by a reputable rebuilder. Just because an engine has new bearings from 40 years ago does not mean the job was done correctly with proper materials. Next would be tires and tubes. Next would be a complete mechanical brake rebuild bringing everything back with factory specifications. A complete steering assessment would be in order too. I would also budget for a gas tank restoration and new radiator and hope those are not needed. Then you get into lesser thought of items such as battery, generator, carburetor, distributor, hoses, lube change-outs, etc. Realistically, the parts alone on these items alone will easily surpass the initial purchase price.

And for what its worth, I can tell you that from experience that buying a running/driving car for more money does not always make it a better value. Spending a few extra thousand dollars on a vehicle that has a running engine yet needs the engine to be rebuilt (out of bearing shims, improper bearing material, etc.) does not make it a better value. Buying a 'restored' vehicle where the Seller suggests the brakes and steering probably only need to be adjusted, and maybe a quick tune-up to make it "ready to drive anywhere" generally is found to be far from factual when it is then parked in the Buyer's garage.




I do agree that "in theory" it does makes sense to buy a collector car that is already restored, ...however most buyers will tell you that finding one that has truly been restored (-or even repaired correctly) is very difficult. Most collector vehicles available on the market are really 'Repair & Repaints' that generally leave their new owners disgusted at their purchase as they quickly learn their vehicle seemingly is a money pit. For that reason alone, I find that is the sole reason why having one restored makes sense to them.


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Old 11-14-2019, 03:54 PM   #27
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

The best way I think to buy a “done one” is to join a club and get to know the members and their cars. Then wait until one of their cars goes up for sale. If if you haven’t seen the car out much if it comes up for sale the others members in the club will let you know
the good and the bad, you can bet on it.
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Old 11-14-2019, 06:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I think folks way overthink the restoration process. These cars when new were cobbled together fast. Same as the '60's muscle cars. Orange peeled paint, mismatched body lines. Fit and finish were far down the list of priorities. Oil leaks. All that and more.

I chose to restore my '71 F350 to what it could have looked like 10 years into it's life. Faded paint, couple rust streaks are perfect. 6bt and aluminum diamond plate dump bed just top it off like a good owner might have. I think too many folks expect too much from a restored car.
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:21 AM   #29
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I have always done my own body and paint work. I do it to satisfy myself. I still use lacquer as it is very forgiving and easy to touch up. I did this 30 roadster about four years ago and all the materials to do the bodywork and paint work came in around $900 dollars. I was going to post the pictures but I canít figure out how to do that 😂
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Old 11-15-2019, 07:15 AM   #30
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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I think folks way overthink the restoration process. These cars when new were cobbled together fast. Same as the '60's muscle cars. Orange peeled paint, mismatched body lines. Fit and finish were far down the list of priorities. Oil leaks. All that and more.

I chose to restore my '71 F350 to what it could have looked like 10 years into it's life. Faded paint, couple rust streaks are perfect. 6bt and aluminum diamond plate dump bed just top it off like a good owner might have. I think too many folks expect too much from a restored car.

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Old 11-15-2019, 09:12 AM   #31
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I get that for many people, the work itself is meditative and fulfilling, but if I were going to take on a project that involved substantial bodywork, I'd look for a luxury marque. You end up putting in the same amount of time and money, and the result is more aesthetically pleasing and retains more of the value. It's easy to forget these cars were mass-produced and there are still many thousands of them out there. There's no ROI on essentially hand-building part of the body when there are many others out there that still have more or less the body they left the factory with.
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:59 AM   #32
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois View Post
You guys are going about this all wrong. You need to do your homework.

Luckily I'm not too real far from Chicago. I can get a car painted plus $20 free body work by Earl, for $99.95

You just have to shop around I'll show you what I mean look at this 30 second advertisement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auvf7DDw5z0
I worked at Earl Scheib when I was a young pup, back then it was $29.95, masking was extra, so if you did not pay for masking we painted everything...and I do mean everything.
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:00 PM   #33
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

My dad had that done in the early 70s at Earl's - had to do all prep work himself - body and filler, sanding, masking, trim removal if needed. I seem to remember he had to supply the paint since there was something special about it, and Earl did not carry it.
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:27 PM   #34
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

There are enough photos from the manufacture of model As to see that they were put together very well with excellent quality control. They were inexpensive, yes, but cobbled together, No. Fit and finish was very good on these cars. Ford never accepted crap work from any of the sub-contract companies either. When some part or assembly gave problems, it was changed by engineering. This is evident in the service bulletins that were so many, it takes a book to hold them.

As far as how long it takes to do a thorough and accurate restoration, that depends on a multitude of factors. A one man shop can do as good a job as any but the time involved is going to be a lot longer due to the hours of labor it take to do the average job. There are only so many hours in a day.

A multi man shop can do it a lot faster since the labor is split between the workers. The larger the shop, the larger the payroll and overhead. Different people have different skill levels and work ethics so that really has an effect. If work gets slow then some employees have to go but where do you find skilled help and how much do you have to pay to keep them when times are good. I don't envy larger shops since I've been there myself and know how much fun it can be. As a forman, I've had to be a customer care guy, teacher, a quality control fixer of problems, and a worker in my own right. It's not an easy job. Things go more quickly but not necessarily smoothly. This always reflects in the costs of the job.

The DIY guy can take as long as he wants but even those folks need some professional help now and then for skill sets they don't possess & tooling they don't have. Some DIY guys possess a lot of drive to finish their projects. Others may never completely finish and it will go on to the next owner. The simpler cars like the open cars and pickups suit a DIY guy better than a fordor or station wagon since those cars have a lot of wood or trim that is more complicated to work with. The coupe is less complicated than a tudor model but similar skill sets are required and they are still relatively simple. The cabriotlets are high on the complicated list and not very easy to restore or find parts for. All of these different cars have different amounts of labor involved for a restoration and that has to be considered by the prospective buyer.

Folks that have done restorations can generally tell you how long it takes for the different models they have experienced. Clubs helped a lot back when they were more popular by guys willing to help each other out when they needed and giving some much needed motivation at times.
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:58 PM   #35
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

My '29 Tudor took me over 2300 hours of my time to restore and my newly finished early '28 Coupe took me 17 years from start to finish!
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Old 11-15-2019, 05:53 PM   #36
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

Gary, nice cars they look great Well done.

I agree with rotorwrench, that the Model A Fords left the Assy. lines in pretty darn good condition. Henry wouldn't have accepted junk. And also, in previous posts here, experienced Model A Ford guys have said 'If you EVER get the chance to drive or ride in a very low mileage original car, you will be amazed at how well they run and handle and how the doors have a solid 'clunk' sound to them when shutting, etc.'

In the Nov., 2019 Hemmings Muscle Machines there is an article about a guy who restored a '71 Torino Convt. He went way above and beyond and 'fixed' body gap issues, etc. from the factory. I wouldn't have gone that far myself. Here is a link.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/articl...convertible-2/
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Old 11-15-2019, 10:18 PM   #37
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Excellent, well-informed article. Thanks for starting this excellent thread. But to tell all about restoration the article would have to be so long it would take ten years to read; the same amount of time it takes to start to become a proficient restorer IF that restorer is dedicated to reading, researching, intense self-training and practice for at least two hours per day on his own time every day, with a consuming passion for excellence and honesty(Then it becomes a consuming life-long habit that can't be broken). The message on cost of a restoration is not arguable for the kind of quality necessary, mentioning a minimum of $125,000.00 and going much higher as skilled hours, parts, materials and specialties dictate for each project. 'Good article; I'm not putting it down at all by mentioning that I never put a "sealer" over stripped or blasted bare metal. I always clean the bare metal with a phosphoric acid solution, then prime it with an acid wash primer, then seal that with epoxy primer. Another difference I have with the good author is that I have never seen, in 46 years of professional restoration pitted rust successfully removed by "sanding" unless it is a small part that is thick enough to lose .010" or more of its thickness without weakening it and the customer can afford the inefficiency. 'Lots of good comments on this thread.
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Old 11-16-2019, 01:07 PM   #38
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

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Cars of the modern era are not made from quality structural and trim materials and they have complicated electronics that don't necessarily have long service lives.
Having been a mechanic (or 'auto service technician', to be fancy) for about 40 years, I have come to a different opinion. Reliability and longevity have greatly improved over the years. In the '50's you had bragging rights if your engine went 100,000 miles without being opened up. Usually a valve job was needed by 50-60,000 miles and by 100,000 it was a leaky, smoking mess. Now 300,000 miles is relatively common, and still no smoke, and few or no oil leaks. Back then, seats were torn and the stuffing coming out in just a few years. Seat covers were big business. Now how often do you see a late model car with seat covers on it? Now, seats look almost new after 100,000 plus miles. In the Rust Belt, rocker panels and floorboards were dissolved in 2-3 years! That's rare now.
Automatic trans shops used to be everywhere. Now even Aamco has to do general repair to survive. A lot of this improvement is due to those complicated electronic controls on transmissions, plus closer tolerances, better fluids and better materials. When I've had the heads off a late model engine (usually a Dodge one ton with recessed valve seats), even after 100,000 plus miles you could still see factory honing marks at the top of the cylinders. A major factor here is electronic fuel injection which prevents flooding and cylinder washdown on cold starts.
Brake shops are hurting, too. Brakes last far longer now. When was the last time your newer car needed a muffler and tailpipe? The switch to stainless steel exhaust parts forced a lot of muffler shops to also diversify. What happened to the corner gas station that used to stock belts, hoses, tune up parts, brake shoes, shocks, mufflers, etc.? When did you last have to replace a front or rear axle bearing? And the list goes on.
True, the often extremely high cost of repairs may doom a car to an early trip to the junkyard but that's always been the case. Back when $100 would buy a fairly decent used car, a rebuilt engine was maybe also $100, and so doomed the car to the junkyard, too. Or a kid bought the car cheap and did his own ring and valve job (or clutch or whatever). Here is where there's a big difference. Diagnosis and repair of the complicated electronics is no longer a backyard job. And shop labor rates have gone from $4-5 an hour to $100 or more.

Last edited by 40 Deluxe; 11-16-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 02:57 PM   #39
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I remember getting a 1959 Chevy painted for 29.99 at Earl Scheib back in the early 70s Looked great to me at the time.
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Old 11-17-2019, 11:54 AM   #40
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Default Re: Interesting read in Hemmings about restoration costs.

I've seen Bob Green's green 71 Torino in person. My former salesman sold him his original grabber blue 71 convertible at Mount Carmel, PA. (Kuzo Brothers Ford Mercury). Jack and I had the same reaction when looking at the car "they never had that good of panel gaps, ect. from the factory". We both thought the restoration cost had to be north of 100k. He has a 69 Mach 1, 428 4speed that I think has around 5k miles. I remarked to Bob the fit and finish on the 2008 Shelby GT 500 we sold him was 100% better but I'd still give a body part for the 69 Mach 1.....
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